Red Dead Redemption in trouble!? NOES!!

[jimbo118]

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/12/sources-red-dead-redemption-development-in-trouble/

game "was a complete disaster for most of 2009 and previous ... it has since turned around a little bit, but there are huge problems with it still." Unsurprisingly, the issues with the game are repeatedly claimed to be the result of mismanagement -- along the same lines as what was mentioned in the recent "Rockstar spouse" letter.

"Red Dead [Redemption] has been in production for six years (mainly because of horrible management/lack of direction due to fear of disrespecting Rockstar NY) and it will never get the money back in sales it cost to create for those six years," claimed another source.

The functional team that was Midnight Club was shattered. All the people who didn't quit or get fired were thrown onto Red Dead Redemption, many of them being demoted. The completely disfunctional team that is RDR was put to top priority. The people who had floundered on that project or outright screwed it up were promoted and are now in complete control of the studio, and they're running it into the ground."

I hope they don't fuk this game up. Want it to be good so much!

 

[Deleted member 56031]

WOW! I'm surprised actually cos lots of sites have said it looks REALLY good

Rockstar san diego has been in ALOT of **** lately :|

 

[B_MAN]

nooooooooo
I really hope they pull it together cause it looks like it could be a great game

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

This looks like a great game. It would be a shame if anything were to happen. This could go on my list of great games which were never actually finished.

 

[Darkside55]

The good news is they [Rockstar] are not expecting to make money with Red Dead Redemption. At this point, that project is just supposed to prove that the San Diego studio can make a great quality AAA title.

That is actually some good news. Think about it.

 

[Krynn72]

That is actually some good news. Think about it.

Until you read this part again.

game "was a complete disaster for most of 2009 and previous ... it has since turned around a little bit, but there are huge problems with it still." Unsurprisingly, the issues with the game are repeatedly claimed to be the result of mismanagement -- along the same lines as what was mentioned in the recent "Rockstar spouse" letter.

 

[Darkside55]

Well, it depends on whether the game being "a complete disaster" was before or after they decided, "Screw it, let's just prove we can make a good game and not worry about sales."

 

[VirusType2]

I told you guys, man. This game looks like ****ing PS2.

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

Oh man, this is probably my most anticipated game of the last 5 years. They better keep on track.

 

[VictimOfScience]

I think it'll be fine. And I can't wait for it!!!

 

[bam23]

All the best to these dudes. Red Dead Redemption is looking like awesome anyway.

 

[TwwIX]

Nothing but bad gaming news this week.

 

[Darkside55]

This game looks like ****ing PS2.

using PS2 as a derogatory term

 

[VirusType2]

Dreamcast was the last good console, IMO.

Anyway, if the game sounds fun, and comes out for PC, I'll get it. Just saying, graphically, it's very underwhelming to me, and not even in the same league as GTA4. (I know it's a different studio and all, but come on, collaborate or something!)

 

[Krynn72]

Well, it depends on whether the game being "a complete disaster" was before or after they decided, "Screw it, let's just prove we can make a good game and not worry about sales."

Personal experience says it won't matter. Unless they fired their management its going to be a disaster no matter how they try to re-prioritize. Stupid people ruin games, even if they realize it.

 

[smwScott]

Despite all this stuff that's been coming out recently - Rockstar has a track record of making great games. Some of the best.

They clearly know what they're doing when it comes to putting out a quality product. Apart from rumors and anonymous tipsters there has been nothing to suggest that RDR will be any different. In fact, all the previews have been very positive.

 

[63]

Despite all this stuff that's been coming out recently - Rockstar has a track record of making great games. Some of the best.

True, but at great cost, and not just financially. Eventually their mistakes will catch up to them.

 

[Gargantou]

I'm gonna take these so-called "sources" with a bit of salt, because all trailers etc I've seen and all the people I've spoken to who've seen it live in action have pretty much only had good things to say about it.

And I have a great deal of faith in Rockstar. People who put blind faith into these so-called sources obviously are very pessimistic people to begin with IMO.

*Prepares to get hated/flamed*

 

[Krynn72]

I may boycott the game out of principle. Rockstar is treating their developers like absolute shit. Its no wonder they're having problems when they're forcing their employees to work in crunch time (12 hours a day, 6 days a week) for months at a time with no overtime compensation, and in fact they've cut pay and benefits. Its like EA all over again.

 

[smwScott]

I find the notion that they're not paying their employees for overtime a bit unbelievable (and not as in shocking, as in I don't believe it). I work closely with the payroll department for my company, which is based in California and has to follow California laws - and I know it's illegal to have someone work over 40 hours a week without paying them time and a half.

Do they force employees to put in long, grueling hours? Probably. Is that the best way to run a company and manage staff? Definitely not.

Nevertheless, I doubt they're refusing to compensate their employees for hours worked. Also worth noting - this wouldn't be news in any other industry.

Boycotting a game to stand up for the employees is just dumb. Best case scenario you're successful and the studio gets shut down, causing them to lose the jobs they obviously still consider worth keeping.

 

[Cpt Tenacious]

The Gamestop preorder bonus was suppose to start today where you can vote on an outfit to get ingame. I checked the site, anyone know what's up?

 

[Krynn72]

I find the notion that they're not paying their employees for overtime a bit unbelievable (and not as in shocking, as in I don't believe it). I work closely with the payroll department for my company, which is based in California and has to follow California laws - and I know it's illegal to have someone work over 40 hours a week without paying them time and a half.

Do they force employees to put in long, grueling hours? Probably. Is that the best way to run a company and manage staff? Definitely not.

Nevertheless, I doubt they're refusing to compensate their employees for hours worked. Also worth noting - this wouldn't be news in any other industry.

Boycotting a game to stand up for the employees is just dumb. Best case scenario you're successful and the studio gets shut down, causing them to lose the jobs they obviously still consider worth keeping.

http://kotaku.com/5444150/alleged-unfair-work-conditions-at-rockstar-san-diego

EDIT: The IGDA has spoken out about this as well.
http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=d239b70fc6659f7d5fc1e4bd8&id=e994e92488&e=60fbbc7277

The IGDA has recently become aware of a discussion initiated by the “wives of Rockstar employees” on Gamasutra raising concerns regarding excessive crunch during the development of Red Dead Redemption. In any studio, the IGDA finds the practice of undisclosed and constant overtime to be deceptive, exploitative, and ultimately harmful not only to developers but to their final product and the industry as a whole. While our research shows that many studios have found ways to preserve quality of life for their employees, unhealthy practices are still far too common in our industry.

Also, do you work at a company where people are salaried, or paid on hourly rates? Game developers are almost always salaried, and it makes it easy for shitty managers to force unpaid overtime on their developers. It happens because people think "Oh you're working on a video game, thats just like playing video games, you should just be happy we're paying you at all!" Which is absolute absurdity, and anyone who thinks like that needs their balls ripped off, or needs to be injected with chemicals to make them grow some balls, which then need to be ripped off.

There is a thread on polycount (a game artist forum with several professional developers posting) about this here: http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=68961

And frankly, anyone who is still working there under these conditions must be brainwashed (going a little dramatic here, bear with me) and is for some poor reason not leaving. I think the studio shutting down would be fine, because I can't see how any of the people working there who are actually talented would have a hard time finding work. Plus, saying their jobs are "jobs they obviously still consider worth keeping" is a null point, because labor camps in china are on the same principle but that doesnt mean we should allow it to happen.



EDIT 2: Word just came out about the same thing happening at Rockstar Vancouver (making Max Payne 3).
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/14/source-max-payne-3-development-allegedly-also-suffering-from-mi/

Further claims about the studio range from an "enforced crunch mode through to the end of the project" that results in "14 - 16 hour work days, six or seven days a week" to a canceled two weeks of vacation over the past holidays.

Enforced crunch mode through to the end of the project, which is due out late this year. An entire year of 12+ hour days? And the source says its not even likely that they'll have the content done in time for an august release.

 

[jimbo118]

Jeez, you suck R*.

 

[smwScott]

http://kotaku.com/5444150/alleged-unfair-work-conditions-at-rockstar-san-diego

EDIT: The IGDA has spoken out about this as well.
http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=d239b70fc6659f7d5fc1e4bd8&id=e994e92488&e=60fbbc7277


Also, do you work at a company where people are salaried, or paid on hourly rates? Game developers are almost always salaried, and it makes it easy for shitty managers to force unpaid overtime on their developers. It happens because people think "Oh you're working on a video game, thats just like playing video games, you should just be happy we're paying you at all!" Which is absolute absurdity, and anyone who thinks like that needs their balls ripped off, or needs to be injected with chemicals to make them grow some balls, which then need to be ripped off.

There is a thread on polycount (a game artist forum with several professional developers posting) about this here: http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=68961

And frankly, anyone who is still working there under these conditions must be brainwashed (going a little dramatic here, bear with me) and is for some poor reason not leaving. I think the studio shutting down would be fine, because I can't see how any of the people working there who are actually talented would have a hard time finding work. Plus, saying their jobs are "jobs they obviously still consider worth keeping" is a null point, because labor camps in china are on the same principle but that doesnt mean we should allow it to happen.



EDIT 2: Word just came out about the same thing happening at Rockstar Vancouver (making Max Payne 3).
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/14/source-max-payne-3-development-allegedly-also-suffering-from-mi/

Enforced crunch mode through to the end of the project, which is due out late this year. An entire year of 12+ hour days? And the source says its not even likely that they'll have the content done in time for an august release.

I saw nothing in the Rockstar spouse letter about unpaid overtime. The IGDA isn't even a first-party source and is just making commentary on the rumors. I don't even know where it came from. Someone probably just said it at some point or another and it got rolled into the fabric of the story.

Yeah, it sounds like the satellite studios are being poorly managed. They are having to work long hours, which is bad for both company morale and productivity.

However, it is their decision to keep working there. If it was as easy as you say for them to go out and find a job with a similar level of compensation and more favorable hours then they would. By boycotting the game, you're only making their situation worse and potentially completely putting them out of a job.

If you want the game and you think it is of a sufficient quality to deserve your money, just buy it. You're just hurting these people more by refusing to buy the product they're responsible for.

And once again - this wouldn't be news in any other industry. Can you imagine news sites posting about unfair working conditions and long hours in a top-tier, highly competitive ad agency for example?

 

[VictimOfScience]

I really think it is too early to say whether it will suffer from all of this supposed mismanagement. I don't think they will let it go out the door looking the fool, so I bet it will be pretty damn good whenever it does release.

 

[Shakermaker]

Jeez, you suck R*.

This.

 

[Krynn72]

And once again - this wouldn't be news in any other industry. Can you imagine news sites posting about unfair working conditions and long hours in a top-tier, highly competitive ad agency for example?

What does this matter? Plus, its not like anyone outside this industry will know about this. Its not going to be on Fox or CNN or any local news channels, its on Kotaku and other game industry websites. Not that it matters anyways, because again, just because it happens in other areas doesnt mean we should allow it to.

As for being unpaid overtime, i guess the rumor came from this

Instead of appreciation, numerous non-exempt designers and artists have had their overtime pay cut as a result for being "too senior".

So sure, i guess they might be getting paid for it, but we dont know how drastic a cut it is, and either way you look at it, its still bullshit. And even their normal salaries dont receive raises that even compensate for inflation.

 

[Gargantou]

Anyone know whether these sorta practices are common within Activision studios? It would make sense to me since the video gaming industry has become a very cutthroat industry IMO, which means according to the IGDA anyway that a notable amount of game execs seem to force their employees into quasi-slave labor in order to try to remain on top in this extremely competitive industry?

Note, I'm not defending R*'s actions, but in many industries, it's hard to remain on top by simply playing it fair and square.

 

[Krynn72]

Anyone know whether these sorta practices are common within Activision studios? It would make sense to me since the video gaming industry has become a very cutthroat industry IMO, which means according to the IGDA anyway that a notable amount of game execs seem to force their employees into quasi-slave labor in order to try to remain on top in this extremely competitive industry?

Considering Activision's CEO Bobby Kotick has literally said that his goal was "to take all the fun out of making video games" I really doubt any studio that he has say over is a healthy workplace.

Also, no. The IGDA says that while a few execs do that, "conditions in most workplaces are improving and, with diligence and an emphasis on increasing process efficiency, can continue to do so."

 

[Gargantou]

Considering Activision's CEO Bobby Kotick has literally said that his goal was "to take all the fun out of making video games" I really doubt any studio that he has say over is a healthy workplace.

Also, no. The IGDA says that while a few execs do that, "conditions in most workplaces are improving and, with diligence and an emphasis on increasing process efficiency, can continue to do so."

Thanks for the clarification, but yes, I'm well aware of what a dickwad Bobby Kotick is, if anything I'd say the statement you quoted was one of his less controversial ones. He's a 100% cotton capitalist.

 

[63]

Anyone know whether these sorta practices are common within Activision studios? It would make sense to me since the video gaming industry has become a very cutthroat industry IMO, which means according to the IGDA anyway that a notable amount of game execs seem to force their employees into quasi-slave labor in order to try to remain on top in this extremely competitive industry?

Note, I'm not defending R*'s actions, but in many industries, it's hard to remain on top by simply playing it fair and square.

Activision doesn't own the studio that I work at, but they do help pay the bills. Things are great.

 

[smwScott]

What does this matter? Plus, its not like anyone outside this industry will know about this. Its not going to be on Fox or CNN or any local news channels, its on Kotaku and other game industry websites. Not that it matters anyways, because again, just because it happens in other areas doesnt mean we should allow it to.

That was only a small part of what I said, but it matters because it puts the issue into context. These are young professionals working in one of the most elite companies in a highly competitive industry. They will benefit greatly from their time there, both in terms of compensation and long-term career improvement.

The main purpose of my post was to point out the utter inanity of boycotting the game. Even in the wholly unlikely case that such a movement was successful, it would likely do far more harm to these people than their current work environment.

And the point about the "unpaid overtime" is a perfect example of how this issue is being absorbed by the demographic that visits sites like this. It shows a blatant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the core issue. I highly doubt Rockstar is doing anything illegal here, otherwise there would be a lawsuit.

In truth it probably isn't the most efficient and effective way to run a company in a creativity-centric industry. Nevertheless, these people freely choose to work there and likely for good reason. They don't need us to rush in and defend them, and they certainly wouldn't appreciate a boycott that could cost them their jobs.