Regarding AI (VALVe statement)

[Foggy]

Regarding the AI in the E3 demo's, This is wat Chris Bokitch had to say about the AI in the demo's shown at the E3 this year:

The sequence of the door-kick'in was all scripted! I thought the AI would be unscripted.. is the final AI shown in the demo's?

Chris Bokitch:
Regarding the AI - I can only assume the actions in the demo were an approximation of what the final AI is meant to be. The demo was never meant to be interactive - it was a rolling movie showing off part of what we wanted the HL2 play experience to be like. It's not like it'd be possible to hide the scripting once the game was fully released.

But Gabe said it was all Unscripted!

Chris Bokitch:
It's easy to take things out of context to prove a point.

When I referred to the scripted approximation of the AI, I was talking in the context of fluoropixel's(a forum member) comments regarding the door kicking scene.

Gabe's comments are regarding the ally AI, in the movie (and E3 demo) where Gordon leads Barney and a group of citizens up a street and through some buildings, fighting Combine troops along the way. As far as I know, this sequence is not a scripted sequence. Not in the linear non-interactive way that Half-Life 1 was.

source:
here

 

[spitcodfry]

Good to have some clearing up on this issue. That's some pretty tricky words they pulled at E3, though.

 

[Peleus]

Wow didn't think of THAT possibility.

I hope all the idiots will stop complaining that the entire HL2 game is scripted now.

 

[Foggy]

Yeah, they were referring to your fellow City-17 ally's. Not all the actions the combine soldiers make. Well, as long as it doesn't interfere with the gaming experience, why should we bother?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Oh yeah! Two parts AI, one part scripted. Just the way I like my coffee, biznatch!

-Ghost.

 

[Edcrab]

The demo was never meant to be interactive - it was a rolling movie showing off part of what we wanted the HL2 play experience to be like. It's not like it'd be possible to hide the scripting once the game was fully released.

How many times did we say this? How many times did the view-leak-no-use-brain-types garble? I hope you're all going to bask in your warm glow of logic (and hit any idiot nearby).

But to be honest, it's the most bloody obvious idea in existence, and I don't see why some people had difficulty accepting it.

 

[inevident]

they lied to you, and ure too dumb to understand congrats

saying "None of what you see is scripted" during a presentation in front of all the computer guru's means one thing: none of it is scripted

just cuz an official comments on it makes it all better, doesn't it? you babies

 

[SubCog]

now if they could just make steam good!

 

[Edcrab]

SubCog- they're software dev's, not miracle workers. There're limits to these things...

Lied to and too dumb to understand? Try "don't care". I bet money- literally- that the E3 demos were full of scripted sequences. Guess what? I also presumed they were just to show what the game would be like when it was actually freaking finished.

 

[Peleus]

Originally posted by inevident
they lied to you, and ure too dumb to understand congrats

saying "None of what you see is scripted" during a presentation in front of all the computer guru's means one thing: none of it is scripted

just cuz an official comments on it makes it all better, doesn't it? you babies

"None of what you see HERE is scripted"

E.g. in that scene, e.g. in the allies scene as they just said above.

Stuff talking about it more, there is only so much talking you can do to a brick wall.

 

[Foggy]

It's easy to take things out of context to prove a point.
Yes it is.. but now it's clear isn't it? The unscripted part was meant for the ALIIES part ONLY.

 

[MultiVaC]

Originally posted by inevident
they lied to you, and ure too dumb to understand congrats

saying "None of what you see is scripted" during a presentation in front of all the computer guru's means one thing: none of it is scripted

just cuz an official comments on it makes it all better, doesn't it? you babies

The only time he said anything was unscripted was during the barricade scene. When I say "This is stupid", I mean this conversation is stupid, I'm not saying that everything that exists is stupid. When Gabe said "This is unscripted" he was referring to what you were seeing on the screen at that time, not the entire game.

 

[gantrithor_5]

For actions that we won't see OR notice OR that have specific scripting, who cares? With Valve behind the wheel, (and cruising at 120 mph) you can depend on them to deliver the goods with a nice mint on top. How hard would it be to match No One Lives Forever 2's AI if Valve is involved?

If Valve chooses not to implement such a response to context, then they choose not to.

 

[Orange]

well, I can see the scripting. When i play, all i see is code. . .
I am like Neo. I will bend HL2 to my will.

Oops , pre beta running, ma bad <off>.

(2 jokes, don't take me too seriously)

 

[otomo]

they made it like a movie. they said it there. Gabe didn't say its unscripted besides the parts that were scripted...... it may not be that big of a deal yea but its just another lie to add to the pile of valves ever growing well lie pile lol. back to max payne 2

 

[droper]

the enemy ai is still rather good since they have no player as a leader you have to tell them whats important and where to go. Also both allies and enemies can be given "hints" which give them a better idea how to use their environment. Both enemies and allies have to be given a base ai as to how to act on every map after that you have to make use of triggers, commands, and goals to get the ai to do much. This though I think is done alright so far, though much work still need to be done since there is a great variation types of characters of whome interact and move around very differently. I think in the E3 video it was the goal of the final product because its all there, it just has to be told the whens and wheres to do it in the code still. What i think people will find most impressive though is the ability to express through body language and choreography this I find is where hl2 has set itself apart from the rest.

 

[Dougy]

Originally posted by SubCog
now if they could just make steam good!

if they make steam good all you still wont get HL2 earlier

HL2 is NOT finished.

common sence seems to have departed these forums.

 

[Dr-X]

dougy, wtf is ur point? what the hell r u on about?

 

[gantrithor_5]

Dougy means that a "beta" and a finished product are different, and the "beta" is inferior in almost every way. One of these ways is AI. Think how much Valve can accomplish between E3 and Christmas.

 

[Dr-X]

yeah but he's talking about steam. he's gone completely off the topic of this conversation and taken a light hearted comment totally seriously.

 

[SubCog]

if valve will make HL2 good, and steam good (or better yet, burn every system that's been infected with it.), then i won't have to complain about their company anymore.

 

[Foggy]

Why aren't my credits on the frontpage? :| mehehe. I want.. attention.. boehoehoehoe.

I'm sure that steam will run fine when HL2 comes out. Time will tell.

 

[fez]

could have sworn that wot was posted at the start of this thread has been wot most people have been saying since the e3/beta leak. just some people didnt seem to get it, now we have confirmation

 

[BoA_Wrath]

Thank god this area has finally been layed to rest. It was obvious that certain scenes were scripted in the E3 Video but as the man said it wasn't supposed to be interactive. I mean imagine how much coding would be needed just for the AI to respond to every world object in different ways, they would have to make the AI virtually lifelike.

As for the barricade scene I believe that certain parts of their AI depend on certain enemies being eliminated before they advance, so isn't this still a cross between Scripting/no-scripting of scenes. But we will have to see when the game comes out, to quote 3d realms "When It's Ready" (cringe)

I for one am not worried about scripting / non scripting of scenes the first HL was all scripted and it kicked ass. More interactive scripting in HL2 is going to be awesome.

:sniper:

 

[FriScho]

No apologize from them. Just a prove, that we should take every Valve Statement with a XXL grain of salt. He just told, what I said a while ago "the E3 demo showed what they wanted to have the AI in the final game, but they lied and told, they already reached that goal". So the game was far from finished anyway and the hacker was NOT the reason for the second delay. He was just an nice reason for the masses. The real reason was: It's not finished (something Gabe told us before the hack was public... that day he was telling the truth).

Edit: Just read the stuff about "he was talking about allies only". No, there was an interview were Gabe confirmed, that NOTHING in the E3 Demo was scripted. Yes, NOTHING and E3 DEMO are the keywords here. So stop defending a lie.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by FriScho
Edit: Just read the stuff about "he was talking about allies only". No, there was an interview were Gabe confirmed, that NOTHING in the E3 Demo was scripted. Yes, NOTHING and E3 DEMO are the keywords here. So stop defending a lie.

link to quote. (of gabe saying nothing in the e3 demo was scripted).

during E3 gabe commented on the allies not being scripted and moving up using their AI. (during the barricade sequence).

 

[Rift]

i really dont think you people understand that this game is not going to be as good as you all think it is....

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Rift
i really dont think you people understand that this game is not going to be as good as you all think it is....

of course not, people have been hyping the game to high heaven for themselves, and it'll never live upto what alot of people are hyping it to be, but whatever, they did it to themselves.

your avatar = tool - lateralus cover? if not it looks similar

 

[Rift]

True, people have no one to blame but themselves when they get the game and its not as good as they think it is. but still it will be good.

By the way TOOL are the best band in the world, and NIN are close behind them, if not right beside. And i do belive that is a picture of Trent Reznor, am i right??

 

[FriScho]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
link to quote. (of gabe saying nothing in the e3 demo was scripted).

during E3 gabe commented on the allies not being scripted and moving up using their AI. (during the barricade sequence).

Ok, serveral sources.

Source #1 from HomeLAN:

HomeLAN - In the E3 demo we saw an scene where Gordon knocks over a PC monitor and the scientist reacts to it. Was that unscripted and if so can other scenes like that occur in Half-Life 2?

Gabe Newell - That was unscripted. There aren't actually scripts in the Half-Life 1 sense. The high level way of thinking about it is that there are actors, actors are in scenes, actors hit their spots, actors deliver lines, and actors have to improvise. Actors are aware at all times of where you are, where you are looking, and what you are doing. In the MOD SDK we'll include a room where everywhere you look, move, and do something that characters will react and respond to show MOD authors how to use the acting system.

Source #2 - GameSpy:

"While the first few demos Valve showed us focused on the graphical, physics and expressive capabilities of the Source engine, a few others illustrated various environments and creature AI. The first of these was in an urban setting, with our character starting out in an alleyway. With enemies on the way, our hero ducked into a nearby door and crouched down, but the enemy knocked out the door's small window with a head-mounted camera, looked around, and proceeded to pound through the metal door to get inside.

Newell explained that this wasn't technically a scripted sequence, but instead part of the character AI, checking to see if the player is nearby and then launching into a special attack. As Newell explained, "It checks to see if there's anything cool it can do," … and it certainly did.

Another demonstration featured Freeman running around on a dried-up seabed with a series of ant lions running around. Although the terrain was greatly uneven, the creatures had no problem keeping all their legs on the ground and traversing the terrain effectively. At another point, one of the creatures runs across a human tank and immediately starts butting up against it, rocking it back and forth in an attempt to knock it over. Once again, these aren't scripted sequences, but the creature AI working its way around a level, encountering something and knowing how to react to it. "

Source 3 - http://planethalflife.com/features/articles/hl2chatlog/
<valve|gaben> The zombie is aware of objects in the environment. His AI realizes when he can throw an object at you and applies the appropriate physics forces to make it happen. The zombies are not scripted to throw specific barrels; it's all tactical.

 

[Aknot]

Thanks FriScho.

Also for the original quotes, please note Chris says:
"I can only assume" and "As far as I know" which are good PR phrases.

Xtasy0
"of course not, people have been hyping the game to high heaven for themselves, and it'll never live upto what alot of people are hyping it to be, but whatever, they did it to themselves."
To be honest if HL2 has updated graphics (it does) the "ragdoll" effect and JUST as a well written story as HL1 (alomg witht the mod ability and MP) It will be just as good if not better then anything out today SP wise.

 

[Edcrab]

The first and last quotes you highlighted mean very little FriScho- he's blabbered about the "actor" system for a while now, at least insofar as the posts in this forum indicate. I'm led to believe that "actor" sequences act excactly the same as scripts, except with a series of context dependant tweaks.

There aren't actually scripts in the Half-Life 1 sense.

Sorry, but that isn't saying "there aren't any scripts, there will never be scripts, and there's a free unicorn delivered to your door if you buy the game over Steam."

Newell explained that this wasn't technically a scripted sequence, but instead part of the character AI...

Now this you were right to highlight, but it can be interpreted in so many ways I better not delve too deep into what I think (as I'm most certainly wrong). It could be a badly worded way of explaining a point of the so-called actor system, with or without actual AI link-ups, or a lie. OMG LETS BURN VALVE!!

Either way... they didn't expect a (bunch of) puerile little bastard(s) to hack them, steal the content, and release it to a community which is guaranteed to go postal and rip up every statement, every screenshot and every interview while screaming blue murder and throwing conspiracy theories everywhere. So I for one am not bothered at all.

 

[SubCog]

that's right. they didn't expect anyone to hack them. They thought they could lie and get away with it.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by FriScho
Ok, serveral sources.

Source #1 from HomeLAN:

HomeLAN - In the E3 demo we saw an scene where Gordon knocks over a PC monitor and the scientist reacts to it. Was that unscripted and if so can other scenes like that occur in Half-Life 2?

Gabe Newell - That was unscripted. There aren't actually scripts in the Half-Life 1 sense. The high level way of thinking about it is that there are actors, actors are in scenes, actors hit their spots, actors deliver lines, and actors have to improvise. Actors are aware at all times of where you are, where you are looking, and what you are doing. In the MOD SDK we'll include a room where everywhere you look, move, and do something that characters will react and respond to show MOD authors how to use the acting system.

Source #2 - GameSpy:

"While the first few demos Valve showed us focused on the graphical, physics and expressive capabilities of the Source engine, a few others illustrated various environments and creature AI. The first of these was in an urban setting, with our character starting out in an alleyway. With enemies on the way, our hero ducked into a nearby door and crouched down, but the enemy knocked out the door's small window with a head-mounted camera, looked around, and proceeded to pound through the metal door to get inside.

Newell explained that this wasn't technically a scripted sequence, but instead part of the character AI, checking to see if the player is nearby and then launching into a special attack. As Newell explained, "It checks to see if there's anything cool it can do," … and it certainly did.

Another demonstration featured Freeman running around on a dried-up seabed with a series of ant lions running around. Although the terrain was greatly uneven, the creatures had no problem keeping all their legs on the ground and traversing the terrain effectively. At another point, one of the creatures runs across a human tank and immediately starts butting up against it, rocking it back and forth in an attempt to knock it over. Once again, these aren't scripted sequences, but the creature AI working its way around a level, encountering something and knowing how to react to it. "

Source 3 - http://planethalflife.com/features/articles/hl2chatlog/
<valve|gaben> The zombie is aware of objects in the environment. His AI realizes when he can throw an object at you and applies the appropriate physics forces to make it happen. The zombies are not scripted to throw specific barrels; it's all tactical.

i'm sorry but in none of those examples do i see gabe say "everything at E3 was unscripted" ...

 

[ParaBellum]

So it's established then that HL2 will make heavy use of scripting. Good, now lets move on.

 

[Edcrab]

They thought they could lie and get away with it.

Well, yeah. They would have too. Without the hack, we'd have seen the demo, had no plausible proof of scripting/unscripting, and been none the wiser when the actual game appeared. Probably happier about it too.

I'd have made a special build for a damn demo, so I don't blame them. I wonder why so many people seem to have taken the whole lying thing to heart. What harm does it do, other than all this bollocks about misleading the community? Oh no, they lied about the use of scripting in a demo we were never meant to see the inner workings of. As long as the completed game is playable and actually fun, they can start lying all over again for all I care (bet I'm going to regret saying that).

Start getting annoyed about a worthy cause instead, like their complete lack of PR and any actual organisation when it comes to release dates.

 

[PvtRyan]

Originally posted by ParaBellum
So it's established then that HL2 will make heavy use of scripting. Good, now lets move on.

To tell the story - yes, to use in combat - no.
I'm sure the kicking door scene will be done by AI in the final version, because when they script it, it wouldn't work with the player that doesn't follow a specific path. It needs to act dynamically, it didn't need to do so in the E3 video which was never meant to be played.
So they can't do otherwise than make the kicking door stuff AI instead of scripted, it would not work when scripted.

But we now know some of the behaviour was indeed scripted, but why exactly? Was the AI not done? Was the AI unpredictable (sucks when you want to run a real time rendered video the same every time you play it) etc etc?

They thought they could lie and get away with it.

At what point did they lie? It's still in developement, and until they release the game, they CANT lie.
I don't understand the arrogance of people thinking they have the right to interfere with the developement process, Valve made the choice to script it because of some reason, and as long as they show the stuff from E3 in the actual game done by AI they never lied.
You weren't supposed to get your greedy hands on this rolling demo, so you have no right to judge it.

 

[Edcrab]

But we now know some of the behaviour was indeed scripted, but why exactly? Was the AI not done? Was the AI unpredictable (sucks when you want to run a real time rendered video the same every time you play it) etc etc?

Meh, I suppose either excuse is plausible. If all the content from the E3 demo is in the final game, it must've been one or the other. If some of the scenes won't appear in the final result, then clearly they've just been lazy- hurrah for sensible tactics.
Of course, I suppose if AI continually did stupid/unpredictable/less dramatic things, they'd have scripted it. Difference between an NPC actively chasing you down through a barricaded door or them hanging around and camping one of the building exits...

 

[AcneBrain]

Originally posted by PvtRyan
It's still in developement, and until they release the game, they CANT lie.

Everyone please TRY TO POUND THIS INTO YOUR BRAIN.

Sorry for yelling :cheese:

 

[Someone]

Originally posted by gantrithor_5
Dougy means that a "beta" and a finished product are different, and the "beta" is inferior in almost every way. One of these ways is AI. Think how much Valve can accomplish between E3 and Christmas.

Exactly. Goes to show that the thief who stole this so called beta truly didn't get anything but a very old e3 build which was only made to show off hl 2....not the WHOLE game...but just what could happen and how it could appear.

The so called beta means zip compared to the real game and people making a connection between the two can only ruin their experience. THEY MADE A PRESENTATION....they wanted to show off the game....nothing else can be made from the "beta".

But, I do think it's unrealistic to think no part of the game is scripted. AI is scripted by definition, no matter how you slice it, period.

The question becomes how much of the AI is scripted. For me...HL1 was awesome and if HL2 is close, that's wonderful and I won't care in the least.

In other words: if the game is good, WHO CARES.