SAS Soldier quits army in Disgust at American Tactics in Iraq

[Solaris]

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.
After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegalHe said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.


The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.
It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary, eight-year career in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan.
But it will also embarrass the Government and have a potentially profound impact on cases of other soldiers who have refused to fight.


On Wednesday, the pre-trial hearing will begin into the court martial of Flt Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, a Royal Air Force doctor who has refused to return to Iraq for a third tour of duty on the grounds that the war is illegal. Mr Griffin's allegations came as the Foreign Office minister Kim Howells, visiting Basra yesterday, admitted that Iraq was now "a mess".
Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Mr Griffin eventually told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

Source
Go him!

 

[Captain M4d]

It's about time a soldier spoke up.

 

[Some_God]

Soldiers aren't allowed to have opinions, that's part of the oath they take when they enlist voluntarily. What he did is called mutiny and can result in death by firing squad, especially in a time of war. What about all those guys that are serving in Iraq who aren't going to quit? They are the real heros. This guy is pathetic.

 

[Spectre01]

Soldiers aren't allowed to have opinions, that's part of the oath they take when they enlist voluntarily. What he did is called mutiny and can result in death by firing squad, especially in a time of war. What about all those guys that are serving in Iraq who aren't going to quit? They are the real heros. This guy is pathetic.

I agree, he is pathetic for not fighting for a cause he doesn't believe in, because all good soldiers should do as they are ordered to! /sarcasm

 

[DeusExMachina]

He should see that video of British soldiers beating children...

I support his actions. The man signed up before the war. He doesn't believe in this cause and rightfully so.

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

Who should believe in the invasion of Iraq? Soldiers who invade another country because their Government's hankering for some black gold, are either gullable or stupid...Or both. So don't mistake them as heros. Although I guess it depends on your definition of what a hero is...

 

[MiccyNarc]

I agree, he is pathetic for not fighting for a cause he doesn't believe in, because all good soldiers should do as they are ordered to! /sarcasm

Hey, idiot, when you sign up for the Army you AGREE TO OBEY ORDERS.
Can't take it? Then don't join.
Anarchy is the product of such mutiny.
It seems alot of idiots on this forum seem to think anarchy is a good idea, unfortunately.

 

[Some_God]

Hey, idiot, when you sign up for the Army you AGREE TO OBEY ORDERS.
Can't take it? Then don't join.
Anarchy is the product of such mutiny.
It seems alot of idiots on this forum seem to think anarchy is a good idea, unfortunately.

QFMFT!

 

[Murray_H]

Hey, idiot, when you sign up for the Army you AGREE TO OBEY ORDERS.
Can't take it? Then don't join.
Anarchy is the product of such mutiny.
It seems alot of idiots on this forum seem to think anarchy is a good idea, unfortunately.

Can't take it? He was in the SAS; he could take anything, anytime, anywhere!

 

[satch919]

Hey, idiot, when you sign up for the Army you AGREE TO OBEY ORDERS.
Can't take it? Then don't join.
Anarchy is the product of such mutiny.
It seems alot of idiots on this forum seem to think anarchy is a good idea, unfortunately.

He may have signed up for the Army to be a soldier but the guy's still human capable of using that grey matter between his ears. If he believes the actions of his government are wrong, then that should be his right. After all, he and his unit are the ones doing the fighting while the people in power call the shots from half way across the world in total safety. The soldier's voice should be heard.

Also, no one is pushing for anarchy. I'm all for organization and responsibility but we have to move beyond the idea of totally submitting to a power without question. Remember that trust is earned.

 

[mortiz]

Hey, idiot, when you sign up for the Army you AGREE TO OBEY ORDERS.
Can't take it? Then don't join.
Anarchy is the product of such mutiny.
It seems alot of idiots on this forum seem to think anarchy is a good idea, unfortunately.

So if you joined the army and a fascist got into power in your country and ordered you to kill women and children? Would you do it?

I wouldn't, I'd be morally against it so I'd quit despite the consequences. He's obviously morally against what's happening in this war. Your morals, your own gut, is stronger than any pledge can ever be. When you join the army you don't often see the events that will call your very fabric into question. Can you really know for sure that you'll be able to do whatever they ask of you? Or just ideally stand by while you see great injustices?

He must have seen something pretty bad in order to quit. These guys just don't quit over nothing.

 

[Ikerous]

Is the iraq war itself illegal? If so, how? (Simpley curious)

 

[satch919]

Is the iraq war itself illegal? If so, how? (Simpley curious)

Many would argue that it is and many would argue that it isn't. It almost depends what part of the political spectrum you're in. That's another discussion for another thread.

 

[Ikerous]

Many would argue that it is and many would argue that it isn't. It almost depends what part of the political spectrum you're in. That's another discussion for another thread.

Thanks (I guess XD)

Does anyone know where i can find an objective opinion on the subject?

 

[Revisedsoul]

are the sas required to throw their rights away as in the us millitary?

 

[Venmoch]

This guy does have a very good point. The US forces don't know what they're doing. Serious, you don't win hearts and minds by patrolling round in your Hummvees pointing the .50 cal at everyone in the street. (Which would appear to be the usual US routine.)

Whats also interesting however, is the fact that his military record is intact and he was given a "glowing testimonial" by his CO. Not to mention the reasons he gives are rather "good" reasons. Not to mention he still holds a lot of respect and admiration for the Regiment and the British servicemen/women still in Iraq. But, when he says something like this

"I had reservations about going out to Iraq before I went, but as a soldier you just get on with what you are ordered to do. But I found that when I was out in Iraq that I couldn't keep my views separate from my work without compromising my role as a soldier.

"It was at that stage that I knew I couldn't carry on. I was very angry, and still am, at the way the politicians in this country and America have lied to the British public about the war. But most importantly, I didn't join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy."

You suddenly start to see why he made his choice. And he waited till he got back to the UK before announcing he wasn't too keen on the whole thing. Which also deserves a large amount of credit.

This man has been to Northern Ireland, and as a result would have had a large amount of peacekeeping training. Something that the US forces seem to be horribly lacking.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma...FF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml -Source

 

[ComradeBadger]

US forces are far from the best at peacekeeping...

 

[NotATool]

Thanks (I guess XD)

Does anyone know where i can find an objective opinion on the subject?

If you hear objectivity and Iraq in the same pargraph, you are hearing it from a biased source who wants to convince you their opinions are truth.

In any case, I want to adress the opinons of Some_God and MiccyNarc.

First, your opinions are red-herrings. Instead of arguing against what the soldier is saying, you are claiming he has no right to even say it. This is the same thing anti-feminists did 80 years ago. Women clamored for a right to vote, made constructive arguments and all men could say to refute them was "Shut up and cook me some steak." It's just dodging the issue.

Second, not only is it not a law for soldiers to obey all orders they are given, it is a law for them not to. Obeying unlawful orders can and will result in a court-martial, dishonorable discharge, and even a sentence. Not only does this soldier have the right to condemn his army, it is his duty to do so if he beleives their actions to be illegal.

 

[OvA]

Soldiers aren't allowed to have opinions, that's part of the oath they take when they enlist voluntarily. What he did is called mutiny and can result in death by firing squad, especially in a time of war. What about all those guys that are serving in Iraq who aren't going to quit? They are the real heros. This guy is pathetic.

Wow, the movie in your sig is awesome.

 

[Glirk Dient]

The problem with this guy doing that is he is breaking a law. The orders he was given to go over there were lawful. He only viewed them as unlawful because of all the BS and ignorance from people and he saw a few bad eggs that deserve to get court marshaled for being dumbasses. It are those idiot kids that make the whole thing look bad and then people assume every soldier does that which is very un true. So really, this guy is basing all of this off of opinions not reality. Also thread is filled with ignorance especially those whining about black gold.

 

[15357]

Are they going to shoot him?

(In which i meant that he should be)

 

[Razor]

His comments definately can't be put aside like some people might judge the opinions and refusals of other forces people over there who speak out against the war, due to his career and his training, his comments hold a huge amount of weight. What i am very shocked to hear though are his comments about the Americans, the Americans have always had a huge reputation when it comes to gunho tactics, shooting their own forces up and killing civilians but, like i said, when you have a member of the SAS saying such things when he's worked so closely with them...

15357, his military career was exemplery and he is a member of the most elite fighting force in the world. He isn't a coward or some low life who got into the military because it would of been better then prison, why should he be shot?

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

Why should anyone be shot? Capital punishment is a no no, but that's a seperate subject.

 

[15357]

I tend to get somewhat extreme sometimes. Excuse me.

I meant that he should be punished because it seems that he disobeyed orders and quit. I may have misinterperated the entire thing but although he has a very good military career, but his disobedience messed it up.

I'm gonna read the first post's link again, I only skimmed it at first.

EDIT: read it again. It still seems to me that he quit and disobeyed orders because he wasn't happy with another force's tactics, in which he should be punished for.

 

[jverne]

I have always said that the US army are a bunch of idiots! Ok, ok idiots are found anywhere, but in the US army there are above average! That is why advanced technology doesn't help, there are to many incompetent people in there!
If an elite soldier quits the army on moral ground then you can only guess what the US soldiers did!?

on the other hand, maybe he just wanted to get out, because his son was born back home, maybe he got sexualy raped by the US soldiers, or something :| and had to make up a story!?

but anyway i agree with him, that most US soldiers are complete retards!
the only way US could win a war is to annihilate evry single being in the country and start all over again! /jk (well...not really) :dozey:

even though i don't know any US soldier to back up my claims, i have seen lots of videos on google, orgish,... that proves some points!

 

[Sulkdodds]

His comments definately can't be put aside like some people might judge the opinions and refusals of other forces people over there who speak out against the war, due to his career and his training, his comments hold a huge amount of weight. What i am very shocked to hear though are his comments about the Americans, the Americans have always had a huge reputation when it comes to gunho tactics, shooting their own forces up and killing civilians but, like i said, when you have a member of the SAS saying such things when he's worked so closely with them...

15357, his military career was exemplery and he is a member of the most elite fighting force in the world. He isn't a coward or some low life who got into the military because it would of been better then prison, why should he be shot?

Quoted for a big bucket of truth. Firstly, the guy has not broken any law or any oath. He quit the military. What, suddenly you're not allowed to do that? Man, remind me not to join the army if I can never get out. These rules and regulations were, essentially, designed by leaders to ensure loyalty and increase control over the armed forces. It is ridiculous to suggest that someone shouldn't express their opinion simply because of this, and ridiculous to suggest that the man is 'pathetic' for not blindly obeying orders. If anything, he is incredibly brave, standing up for the truth on an issue that affects all too many people.

This guy is a seasoned soldier of one of the best task forces in the world. He knows the score. I find it extremely interesting that the very people who are saying the man is wrong in doing what he's done are the same people who are often heard to say: 'the soldiers are the only ones who really not going on. The soldiers are the real heroes.'

I must say I have great respect for the man.

 

[15357]

Quoted for a big bucket of truth. Firstly, the guy has not broken any law or any oath. He quit the military. What, suddenly you're not allowed to do that? -He is? Then why did he expect to be court martialed? Man, remind me not to join the army if I can never get out. These rules and regulations were, essentially, designed by leaders to ensure loyalty and increase control over the armed forces. -Yes. It is ridiculous to suggest that someone shouldn't express their opinion simply because of this, and ridiculous to suggest that the man is 'pathetic' for not blindly obeying orders. -Why? He stood up when he shouldn't have. If anything, he is incredibly brave, standing up for the truth on an issue that affects all too many people. -Brave, yes. Disloyal, yes.

This guy is a seasoned soldier of one of the best task forces in the world. He knows the score. I find it extremely interesting that the very people who are saying the man is wrong in doing what he's done are the same people who are often heard to say: 'the soldiers are the only ones who really not going on. The soldiers are the real heroes.' -They are, he isn't.

I must say I have great respect for the man. -k

see quote, please.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Except you don't have a reason for saying people should obey authority, Numbers. Authority is not inherently right. You're just saying 'because'. Because, because, because, because.

He should obey orders because he should obey orders. He stood up when he shouldn't have.

Why shouldn't he have stood up, Numbers?

Because!

 

[15357]

Except you don't have a reason for saying people should obey authority, Numbers. Authority is not inherently right. You're just saying 'because'. Because, because, because, because.

He should obey orders because he should obey orders. He stood up when he shouldn't have.

Why shouldn't he have stood up, Numbers?

Because!

I'm confused and enlightened at the same time.

Why should people obey authority? Because it is there. Authority is meant to be obeyed, and in most cases you'll get no harm in doing so. You'll get harm for not obeying authority.

btw, am i making sense?

 

[Sulkdodds]

If you're joking, it's not that funny.

If you're being entirely serious, I believe you may need to rethink things. Consider: Stalin was an authority. Hitler was an authority. Slobby Dan Milosevic was an authority. They were not 'right' in doing what they did. If you believe the government has a right to govern because it's the government, you are sorely mistaken. This is also circular logic. And it's crazy.

Authority is not fundamentally right. People should not obey Authority because it is there. That mentality - 'authority is meant to be obeyed' - leads to authority being able to do whatever the hell it likes; it can lead to death, and oppression, and to genocide. It has done in the past. People should obey Authority because they believe it is granted legitimacy (ie, it has been elected, or it is appointed by God) or is doing what is right.

Now we run into problems with definitions of what's right or wrong.
However, there are certain things that are universally and unarguably 'wrong'.
And you are telling me that right and wrong are unimportant because you should simply obey Authority.


Why should you? "Because", you say. If your government outlawed your name, and you were arrested and put in prison...would it still be right?
Not to mention that all the guy is doing is quitting the military. It's not like he's killed a police officer or something.

And all of this is still without even taking the time to divide 'disobedience' and 'voicing an opinion', which are two very different things.

 

[mortiz]

If you blindly follow authority all the time you'll land yourself in deep water when someone gets into authority that isn't really suited for the position. Especially if they're dangerous.

 

[Razor]

I tend to get somewhat extreme sometimes. Excuse me.

I meant that he should be punished because it seems that he disobeyed orders and quit. I may have misinterperated the entire thing but although he has a very good military career, but his disobedience messed it up.

I'm gonna read the first post's link again, I only skimmed it at first.

EDIT: read it again. It still seems to me that he quit and disobeyed orders because he wasn't happy with another force's tactics, in which he should be punished for.

It depends on his situation, if he went through half his tour and then turned round to his commanding officer one day whilst in deepest, darkest Baghdad and said "no, i don't like the war, i want to go home" then yes, he should be frowned upon, but he did his job, supported his mates and comrades and did say anything until he came home and his job was done.

 

[15357]

If you're joking, it's not that funny.

If you're being entirely serious, I believe you may need to rethink things. Consider: Stalin was an authority. Hitler was an authority. Slobby Dan Milosevic was an authority. They were not 'right' in doing what they did. If you believe the government has a right to govern because it's the government, you are sorely mistaken. This is also circular logic. And it's crazy.

Authority is not fundamentally right. People should not obey Authority because it is there. That mentality - 'authority is meant to be obeyed' - leads to authority being able to do whatever the hell it likes; it can lead to death, and oppression, and to genocide. It has done in the past. People should obey Authority because they believe it is granted legitimacy (ie, it has been elected, or it is appointed by God) or is doing what is right.

Now we run into problems with definitions of what's right or wrong.
However, there are certain things that are universally and unarguably 'wrong'.
And you are telling me that right and wrong are unimportant because you should simply obey Authority.


Why should you? "Because", you say. If your government outlawed your name, and you were arrested and put in prison...would it still be right?
Not to mention that all the guy is doing is quitting the military. It's not like he's killed a police officer or something.

And all of this is still without even taking the time to divide 'disobedience' and 'voicing an opinion', which are two very different things.

Damn you. i've obeyed, conformed, was loyal, and now I'm wondering what the hell did i do that for.

Stop messing with my mind!

Edit: Anyway, its controversial, the right or wrong in this war in iraq.

 

[Maxi]

Go soldier!

 

[VictimOfScience]

What I don't get is why is this news? People desert all the time. The fanfare IMHO is undeserved.

That said, good for him for not "just following orders" and potentially involving himself in illegal acts. I don't think his take on the war as being "illegal" is particularly interesting or enlightening or even a justification of his actions, but if there were particular examples of criminal behavior going on that he was ordered to take part in, then he and everyone else should indeed speak out!

I can't help but be disappointed in him though too, as this might set a precedent that gives more soldiers the seemingly easy and worry-free option to abandon the effort in Iraq. Illegal war or not, the country needs to be stabilized and it is the job of everyone over there to do their part. Even if you don't agree with the war, you must agree that stabilizing that volatile area is extremely important not just to the safety and stability of that region but to the rest of the world as well. We can't have everyone just up and leave!

 

[63]

What I don't get is why is this news? People desert all the time. The fanfare IMHO is undeserved.

Because he is a member of the elite SAS, not some mindless idiot grunt.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Because he is a member of the elite SAS, not some mindless idiot grunt.

More's the pity then since it doesn't speak too highly of their elite team if they have members quitting when the job is not yet done. If they are so respected, then they should either all quit or none quit. He is not only deserting the Iraqis they are there to help but he's also deserting his fellow SAS and that to me is despicable.

 

[Solaris]

More's the pity then since it doesn't speak too highly of their elite team if they have members quitting when the job is not yet done. If they are so respected, then they should either all quit or none quit. He is not only deserting the Iraqis they are there to help but he's also deserting his fellow SAS and that to me is despicable.

If War in Iraq = Wrong, then Soldier = Right

 

[VictimOfScience]

If War in Iraq = Wrong, then Soldier = Right

Ha! If only things could be so black and white!

 

[mindless_moder]

im sorry but did you actually read the article ? . if innocent civilians are being imprisoned and tortured then i dont see how the hell that is bringing stability to the country ? . further more
"He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the war's conduct." if the war is infact bringing positive reinforcement to the country then i dont see why they have to lie about the severity of the matter or about the actions taken to preserve order.