Self Defence In The Home

[SimonomiS]

How far is too far? What do you legally think should be the limit for self defence in your home, in your country? Im sure there was supposed to be some statement today clarifying it for the Uk, but I havnt heard it. At the moment it seems to be the most you can use is stern language. I mean say you wake up, you hear someone downstairs, you check it out and its someone stealing your personal, valuble things, in the spur of the moment youll most likely do anything, unless they have some sort of weapon. Sadly in the Uk, most robbers dont NEED a weapon. I think in America, or some states at least, anything is legal as far as its in your own home, heard a story about some woman shooting a robber, but he fell over her garden fence and sued her. :| Theres also the guy who shot a burglar in his home, alot of controversy over that, although he used an illegally owned gun, and it was more complex, but whatever. Is death too far for someone stealing/threatening YOU in YOUR home?

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

How far is too far? What do you legally think should be the limit for self defence in your home, in your country? Im sure there was supposed to be some statement today clarifying it for the Uk, but I havnt heard it. At the moment it seems to be the most you can use is stern language. I mean say you wake up, you hear someone downstairs, you check it out and its someone stealing your personal, valuble things, in the spur of the moment youll most likely do anything, unless they have some sort of weapon. Sadly in the Uk, most robbers dont NEED a weapon. I think in America, or some states at least, anything is legal as far as its in your own home, heard a story about some woman shooting a robber, but he fell over her garden fence and sued her. :| Theres also the guy who shot a burglar in his home, alot of controversy over that, although he used an illegally owned gun, and it was more complex, but whatever. Is death too far for someone stealing/threatening YOU in YOUR home?

You've been listening to mass media too much


In the UK you can use reasonable force. That means that you can use pretty much any means neccessery to stop them from taking your posessions and from being a danger to you, or those arround you. However if you take things too far, say so far as that you are attacking them out of revenge/punishment then that is classed as unreasonable. And then you can be charged, but even then its unlikely unless you cause permanent damage or death.


For example, I read on the BBC site that there have been very few prosecutions in the past 15 years or somthing... and that those were for extreme cases such as one person being tied up and then set alight....




I've ranted alot but basically you can do whatever you want so long as they are able to turn up to court to be punished by the law afterwards.

 

[baron insig]

Yeah marks is right as long as you say i deemed that reasonable force because i was very suprised and very distrubed ( telling ti to the police)

( if u do Fok the person up considerably and your a bit worried te police dont know what happend so graba kitcehn knife and put it in his hand they cant say it was you cos u coulda used that knife earlier to cut something so ahaha )

But yeah i think that if a Someone breaks the law they should not be protected by it, eg deal with them and they cant sue you ..........

 

[short recoil]

Well if anyone breaks into my house they will nocked unconcious with a tonfa (t-shaped baton) by giving them a sharp blow across the side of the neck/lower skull and then tied up to the metal stair bannister with rope, then i will call the police.

 

[baron insig]

by there neck ? or genatalia

or maybe by ther ahnds if your some crazy person, the police might get a luagh init

 

[SimonomiS]

Yea but what is "reasonable" force? Anyway know the legal defination of it?

 

[bliink]

Yea but what is "reasonable" force? Anyway know the legal defination of it?

If there was a workable definition, there wouldnt be so many lawsuits eh?

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Yea but what is "reasonable" force? Anyway know the legal defination of it?

Thats what the statement today was about. It was put out to try and clarify since it has been put in the spotlight by the media.


Basically you can use anything that doesnt cross over into punishment for their act, or revenge I believe. Basically, dont take it too far, dont hit them when they are down, if they back off then let them go, if they plead with you call the police. If however, they attack you do what the hell you want.

 

[Alig]

It was announced that the law is on your side if you was to kill someone who came into your house, which is ****ing damn right too....

Thats what the statement today was about. It was put out to try and clarify since it has been put in the spotlight by the media.


Basically you can use anything that doesnt cross over into punishment for their act, or revenge I believe. Basically, dont take it too far, dont hit them when they are down, if they back off then let them go, if they plead with you call the police. If however, they attack you do what the hell you want.

That was'nt the way i understood it on the radio earlier. The way it came accross me was like i said. Why should someone be in your house? even if they get in see you stood there with a golfclub and beg for mercy they still would of robbed you and quite frankly the person breaking into your personal property would'nt hesistate to kick shit out of you first.

 

[Venmoch]

Although you probably would get Manslaughter. It'd just be a reduced sentence.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Although you probably would get Manslaughter. It'd just be a reduced sentence.

If you kill someone in self defence if you feared for your life then you get a massively reduced sentance at most. Which is too damn right.

 

[The Dark Elf]

It was announced that the law is on your side if you was to kill someone who came into your house, which is ****ing damn right too....



That was'nt the way i understood it on the radio earlier. The way it came accross me was like i said. Why should someone be in your house? even if they get in see you stood there with a golfclub and beg for mercy they still would of robbed you and quite frankly the person breaking into your personal property would'nt hesistate to kick shit out of you first.

Yep I'm pretty happy with that result too, anyone who breaks in you can now legally kill if you believe they pose a threat to you or your family. Still not allowed to set traps though *grumbles*


About time the victims got recognised and allowed to protect themselves without fear of being arrested. I'm all for this.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Thats what the statement today was about. It was put out to try and clarify since it has been put in the spotlight by the media.


Basically you can use anything that doesnt cross over into punishment for their act, or revenge I believe. Basically, dont take it too far, dont hit them when they are down, if they back off then let them go, if they plead with you call the police. If however, they attack you do what the hell you want.

wrong

you no longer have to wait for them to attack you first. If they break in, and you _think_ they pose a real threat, you can kill them. Course if you shoot them in the back or something or continue to beat the shit out of them when their already down, then your gonna get arrested. But if they challenge you and you kill them because of that, nothing will happen to you.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

wrong

you no longer have to wait for them to attack you first. If they break in, and you _think_ they pose a real threat, you can kill them. Course if you shoot them in the back or something or continue to beat the shit out of them when their already down, then your gonna get arrested. But if they challenge you and you kill them because of that, nothing will happen to you.

Yeah, when I said "if they attack you.." I should have said "if you think they are going to attack you or if they do attack you"


I'm rubish at typing stuff like this up.

EDIT: Unless you mean the rest of my post is wrong... It could be... I didnt think they actually changed the law... because I read up on it about a month or two ago and thats what I read from it.

 

[short recoil]

I find the best thing to keep burgalars away (and most people) is to have a "TRESSPASSERS WILL BE SHOT" sign on your house, completely legal and a very effective deterant.

 

[HunterSeeker]

You deserve to be charged for murder if they are unarmed and you use lethal force against them. You dont however if they try to use lethal force against you.

 

[baron insig]

no YOU dont hunterseeker

If the basterds are in YOUR hose STEALING YOUR possesions which YOU bought with YOUR money

Then they should be dealt with accordingly and the parts put in a bin bag for the police if you so choose

If someone came into your house and started stealing your stuff and you did not know that the y could be carrying a very viscious weapon about there person do you think you would risk saying uhh excuse me mate let me tie you up while i call the police hell no they would go at you silence you and LEG it, and go rob another house the night after,,,,,,

 

[The Dark Elf]

Yeah, when I said "if they attack you.." I should have said "if you think they are going to attack you or if they do attack you"


I'm rubish at typing stuff like this up.

EDIT: Unless you mean the rest of my post is wrong... It could be... I didnt think they actually changed the law... because I read up on it about a month or two ago and thats what I read from it.

Basically, if I caught someone in my house, and they moved towards me, I could see that as threatening behavior and attack him. If he happened to die then meh who cares. IF he runs the other direction OUT of the house, the most I could do it knock him down, serious injuries would lead to an investigation.

If he was running to get out of the house, away from me but towards my family, I could see that as threatening behavior (how would I be sure he was trying to get out, he might be about to use a member of the family as a shield from me or worse) so again I'd be fine if he happened to die at that point.

The old guy on the farm who was arrested for shooting that kid apparantly shot him in the back as he was running away and posed no imediate threat to the guy. So thats why he was put away for it, among other reasons I think.

I'm really happy about this. Before the police have said we couldn't have weapons or protect ourselves because "it would prompt the criminal to come armed" errr what do they do all day, most thieves are armed in some way. the others probably have something like AIDS from using dirty needles, which has also been used as a weapon.

And in cases like this, you've really no idea what they might do, someone on drugs is completely unpredictable, and really lets be honest, who's gonna miss another thief that thinks nothing of injuring people so he/she can get their next fix?

Someone breaks into my house and I get the chance, I'll kill em, no remorse whatsoever. They shouldn't be there in the first place. If I was robbing someone elses house and got killed or seriously injured, i'd have deserved it too. So if someone gets killed by my actions, for breaking in, thats their fault and its about time homeowners were allowed to protect their property from people like that.

If someone came into your house and started stealing your stuff and you did not know that the y could be carrying a very viscious weapon about there person do you think you would risk saying uhh excuse me mate let me tie you up while i call the police hell no they would go at you silence you and LEG it, and go rob another house the night after,,,,,,

Exactly! in the heat of the moment, how would you know what they had on themselves? Either you pause to find out and risk getting injured/killed yourself or your family. Or you get in the first strike and protect yourself. Their breaking the law just being there, and now instead of getting away with it, they'll end up dead, or a cabbage or whatever. Totally deserving

Next the courts need to throw out ALL cases of criminals suing the people they steal from just cause they tripped and hurt themselves, its pathetic the UK even allow that to go on.

 

[baron insig]

like in south africa ppl fit weaponry to their cars becuase at night it is so dangerous, one of my family friends doesnt stop at red lights at night and keeps driving for fear of being bumped

and all the hospitals have metal barriers that ocme across the doors and stuff to protect them from looting

Tip kids : dont go to South AfricA!

EDIT : im off to bed gnite peeps dont gfo of thread topic now will ya i find this topic ripe for the discussin!

 

[Alig]

You deserve to be charged for murder if they are unarmed and you use lethal force against them. You dont however if they try to use lethal force against you.

So basically what you're saying is "wait for him to ****ing paste me over my own walls before i touch him!" ? makes no sense.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Basically, if I caught someone in my house, and they moved towards me, I could see that as threatening behavior and attack him. If he happened to die then meh who cares. IF he runs the other direction OUT of the house, the most I could do it knock him down, serious injuries would lead to an investigation.

If he was running to get out of the house, away from me but towards my family, I could see that as threatening behavior (how would I be sure he was trying to get out, he might be about to use a member of the family as a shield from me or worse) so again I'd be fine if he happened to die at that point.

The old guy on the farm who was arrested for shooting that kid apparantly shot him in the back as he was running away and posed no imediate threat to the guy. So thats why he was put away for it, among other reasons I think.

I'm really happy about this. Before the police have said we couldn't have weapons or protect ourselves because "it would prompt the criminal to come armed" errr what do they do all day, most thieves are armed in some way. the others probably have something like AIDS from using dirty needles, which has also been used as a weapon.

And in cases like this, you've really no idea what they might do, someone on drugs is completely unpredictable, and really lets be honest, who's gonna miss another thief that thinks nothing of injuring people so he/she can get their next fix?

Someone breaks into my house and I get the chance, I'll kill em, no remorse whatsoever. They shouldn't be there in the first place. If I was robbing someone elses house and got killed or seriously injured, i'd have deserved it too. So if someone gets killed by my actions, for breaking in, thats their fault and its about time homeowners were allowed to protect their property from people like that.



Exactly! in the heat of the moment, how would you know what they had on themselves? Either you pause to find out and risk getting injured/killed yourself or your family. Or you get in the first strike and protect yourself. Their breaking the law just being there, and now instead of getting away with it, they'll end up dead, or a cabbage or whatever. Totally deserving

Next the courts need to throw out ALL cases of criminals suing the people they steal from just cause they tripped and hurt themselves, its pathetic the UK even allow that to go on.

I don't think I would kill an intruder if I could help it (Felt up to trying to be that controlled at the time) because I simply dont think I would have it in me. I think I'd much rather try knock them out and send them to jail as punishment.

However that said, I respect your opinions and believe you have every right to kill someone who you saw as a threat to you or anyone you know. I am happy I have that choice.



And yeah, the farmer who shot the burgler in the back was in the wrong in my opinion. Thats because I dont think I could bring myself to shoot someone in the back... and he did it as a matter of course. However... i suspect everything changes in the situation itself.



Man I go on alot....

 

[Alig]

Not many people would want to kill someone purposely but if someone hits you who's broken into your house and you get the biggest kitchen knife you have out, who know's what you'll do. Adrenaline would be pumping and you really would'nt care much for that person who hit who at that very moment in time.

You could'nt shoot someone anyway, because guns are illegal in UK...at least most guns are anyway.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Not many people would want to kill someone purposely but if someone hits you who's broken into your house and you get the biggest kitchen knife you have out, who know's what you'll do. Adrenaline would be pumping and you really would'nt care much for that person who hit who at that very moment in time.

You could'nt shoot someone anyway, because guns are illegal in UK...at least most guns are anyway.

Heh, yep.


This is what worries me... I dont know what I would do in a situation like that anymore.


I've had people try to start fights with me on about 4 occasions in the past 6 months. Once saw me on the floor bleading out the back of my head... (I was drunk and couldnt defend myself) the other 3 were after that as the same people tried to intimidate me and make me lash out at them. The point is the last time it happened a guy kicked me in the back and I snapped I turned round ready to do anything and everything I could do hurt him as much as possible. Nothing else was in my mind at that moment in time. I snapped out of it pretty quick once I saw that he had legged it.... but its one of the scariest experiences of my life. I know I can do more than enough damage to get myself sent to prison.


I dont want to sound big headed but I am perfectly honest when I say I am more worried about what I would do to an attacker than what they would do to me.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I don't think I would kill an intruder if I could help it (Felt up to trying to be that controlled at the time) because I simply dont think I would have it in me. I think I'd much rather try knock them out and send them to jail as punishment.

However that said, I respect your opinions and believe you have every right to kill someone who you saw as a threat to you or anyone you know. I am happy I have that choice.



And yeah, the farmer who shot the burgler in the back was in the wrong in my opinion. Thats because I dont think I could bring myself to shoot someone in the back... and he did it as a matter of course. However... i suspect everything changes in the situation itself.



Man I go on alot....

yeah, shooting someone in the back or killing them when they pose no threat, i agree thats wrong and he got what he deserved. But if thats not the case, i'll have no problem doing it. If anyone poses a threat to someone I care about, I'll have no second thoughts about it.

I'm sure someone out there will start to abuse it though, and then you'll have al the goodygoodies coming out of the shadows to say "we told you so" before being invited around to people's houses and getting shot

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I'm sure someone out there will start to abuse it though, and then you'll have al the goodygoodies coming out of the shadows to say "we told you so" before being invited around to people's houses and getting shot

lol, true

 

[The Dark Elf]

Heh, yep.


This is what worries me... I dont know what I would do in a situation like that anymore.


I've had people try to start fights with me on about 4 occasions in the past 6 months. Once saw me on the floor bleading out the back of my head... (I was drunk and couldnt defend myself) the other 3 were after that as the same people tried to intimidate me and make me lash out at them. The point is the last time it happened a guy kicked me in the back and I snapped I turned round ready to do anything and everything I could do hurt him as much as possible. Nothing else was in my mind at that moment in time. I snapped out of it pretty quick once I saw that he had legged it.... but its one of the scariest experiences of my life. I know I can do more than enough damage to get myself sent to prison.


I dont want to sound big headed but I am perfectly honest when I say I am more worried about what I would do to an attacker than what they would do to me.

Thats just the whole "seeing red" thing, happens to everyone sometimes. If you saw a criminal in your house, and say you had a child in the same house, or a girlfriend, parents whatever. You'd instinctively want to protect them by removing the threat. Just cause he might not be carrying a weapon doesn't mean he's not a danger, what if you didn't do anything and let him go, chances are he'd come back, what if he did when you weren't there? What if?

the criminal should understand that the minute he or she crosses into your property, his or her life is then in your hands. He's breaking the law and if he gets killed from it, thats his fault, you were provoked to protect yourself and your loved ones. To be expected to stand back and let the guy do anything he wants and be unable to stop him is dumb, to be allowed to protect yourself should be a god given right that people haven't had to fight for for years.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Thats just the whole "seeing red" thing, happens to everyone sometimes. If you saw a criminal in your house, and say you had a child in the same house, or a girlfriend, parents whatever. You'd instinctively want to protect them by removing the threat. Just cause he might not be carrying a weapon doesn't mean he's not a danger, what if you didn't do anything and let him go, chances are he'd come back, what if he did when you weren't there? What if?

the criminal should understand that the minute he or she crosses into your property, his or her life is then in your hands. He's breaking the law and if he gets killed from it, thats his fault, you were provoked to protect yourself and your loved ones. To be expected to stand back and let the guy do anything he wants and be unable to stop him is dumb, to be allowed to protect yourself should be a god given right that people haven't had to fight for for years.

Good points. Its all about the situation I guess.

The thing I was on about above when I kinda lost it... well I dont do that often lol. Thought I best point out that I aint phsyco I put up with him insulting me, my friends and even lightly hitting me and generally intimidating me for about 100 meters. Thing is ... well I like to put it like this. I have a long fuse..... but when I go off.... I go off in a very explosive way.

Edit: Newho... sleeeeepy.... I will check this thread tomorrow. Good discusion goin on.

 

[short recoil]

Guys, there is a simple awnser......a savage dog, one that is trained to only trust your family (alsation is perfect for this)
If i was a burgalar and i broke into a house and there was a 60kg alsation barking at me i would shit myself.

And if it savages his throat then the dog gets put down and you get off free ........only thing is paying for food and time walking it, isn't a dog a nice thing to have though?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Guys, there is a simple awnser......a savage dog, one that is trained to only trust your family (alsation is perfect for this)
If i was a burgalar and i broke into a house and there was a 60kg alsation barking at me i would shit myself.

And if it savages his throat then the dog gets put down and you get off free ........only thing is paying for food and time walking it, isn't a dog a nice thing to have though?

The law might see that as setting a trap, depends on the lawyers involved.

Same goes for electrified fences, doors, windows, concealed weapon turrets, spiked pits and acid baths

which sucks hehe

 

[short recoil]

The law might see that as setting a trap, depends on the lawyers involved.

Same goes for electrified fences, doors, windows, concealed weapon turrets, spiked pits and acid baths

which sucks hehe

Non lethal "traps" are legal i think
Things like ultra low frequency high amplitude sound (triggered via a simple clothes peg tripwire) ......that noise makes you feel increadibly nauseous and disorientated (some people throw up).

I can think of all sorts of ingeneous traps........its a shame they cannot be lethal

 

[Ryjalon10k]

my dad has an SKS in his closet, a 30-30, and a small pistol. he only keeps his pistol loaded.

i keep my machete in my room incase someone breaks in, a steak knife would do well, but thats in the kitchen near the front door.....

My dad almost shot his friend one night, his friend was drunk, and stumbled on the porch, he just wanted to talk..hah.

yea, im ready to use lethal force against anyone who comes in my house unwanted.

 

[short recoil]

my dad has an SKS in his closet, a 30-30, and a small pistol. he only keeps his pistol loaded.

i keep my machete in my room incase someone breaks in, a steak knife would do well, but thats in the kitchen near the front door.....

My dad almost shot his friend one night, his friend was drunk, and stumbled on the porch, he just wanted to talk..hah.

yea, im ready to use lethal force against anyone who comes in my house unwanted.

American no doubt?
Be careful with the SKS and the 30-30, make sure you are sure where the bullets are gonna go, both guns could go through the intruder, through the house wall, into the next house.......through one of the occupants and ricochet and still have enough energy to kill the cat! ...........use the pistol

 

[baron insig]

The law might see that as setting a trap, depends on the lawyers involved.

Same goes for electrified fences, doors, windows, concealed weapon turrets, spiked pits and acid baths

which sucks hehe

And Rakes left in conveinient palces ?

 

[burner69]

This is the ellusive UK law for y'all

What is reasonable force?

What you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment... This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.
As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self defense

Do I have to wait to be attacked

No, not if you are in your home and fear for yourself or others

What if the intruder dies?

If you have acted in reasonable self defence, as described above, and the intruder dies you will still have acted lawfully.

Instances in which you could be prosecuted

1. Having knocked someone unconcsious you then decided to further hurt or kill them to punish them.
2. You knew of an intended intruder and set a trap to hurt or kill them rather than involve the police.

What if I chase them off as they run off
You are still allowed to use reasonable force to recover your property and make a citizens arrest... a rugby tackle or a single blow would probably be reasonable. Acting out of malice and with revenge with the intent of inflicting punishment through injury or death would not

That's from today's Independant, hope it clears some stuff up with regards the UK law.

Now, that law suits me fine.
What I don't like is people's attitudes of "They deserve to die they're on my property." What is wrong with owning a tazor? Pepperspray? A large dog? Why have a bloody pistol to shoot someone who, chances are, is not going to attack you. If someone bumped into the back of your car at a set of traffic lights would you take them home and imprison them in your cellar? If you saw someone speeding on a road would you pull out an automatic and blast that son of a b**ch? No, you would not.
I appreciate that everyone desires their home to be safe, I just don't think coming downstairs, pointing a gun at a burglar and pulling the trigger is the way to go about it.
I'd feel just as safe if I had a several thousand voltage tazor to hand when I heard someone break in - I wouldn't have the guilt of killing a human being, I'd also remove the chances that rather than being burglar bill, I end up shooting a relative or friend coming in late - it happens a lot.

At the end of the day, unless it's an extreme circumstance, guns are not reasonable force.