Senate Committee Hearing on Video Games begins

[CptStern]

"With the fervor surrounding video game violence drawing attention from both media and politicians, today a subcommittee will descend on Washington D.C. for a hearing entitled “What’s in a Game? State Regulation of Violent Video Games and the First Amendment”.

The 2:00 p.m. EST hearing will be presided over by Kansas Senator and 2008 presidential hopeful Republican Sam Brownback, along with the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Property Rights, and will include witnesses from both sides of the debate surrounding violence in video games

He is also one of two co-sponsors of Senator Hillary Clinton's Children and Media Research Advancement Act (CAMRA), which proposes a significant study of the impact of electronic media use to be organized by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CAMRA was passed by the Senate's Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions in early March.

Attendees scheduled to attend the hearing include Patricia Vance, President, ESRB, Reverend Steve Strickland, the brother of Fayette, Alabama Police Officer Arnold Strickland, who's murder by Devin Moore in 2004 was linked to Take-Two Interactive's Grand Theft Auto III and Vice City, and Dr. David Bickham, Ph.D., Research Scientist, Center on Media and Child Health at Harvard Medical School, among others."


http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729


some of you dont think all the recent press on violence in video games isnt that big of a deal ..you may say "well I'm over 18 so this wont afect me" ..it will affect you, it will limit your choices because publishers will be increasingly worried that their investment may come back to haunt them through litigation or negative press orchestrated by some righteous watchdog group who think it's their right to legislate what we can or cant watch/read/play. It's about time the gaming community starts to fight back

 

[Direwolf]

Reverend Steve Strickland, the brother of Fayette, Alabama Police Officer Arnold Strickland, who's murder by Devin Moore in 2004 was linked to Take-Two Interactive's Grand Theft Auto III and Vice City

Oh man, I'm sure his testimony is going to be informative.

Brownback doesn't sound all that unbiased either. Anything involving electronic media and Hillary Clinton is probably going to be balogna.

 

[CptStern]

Oh man, I'm sure his testimony is going to be informative.

ya it's not like he doesnt have an emotional stake in it

 

[K e r b e r o s]

some of you dont think all the recent press on violence in video games isnt that big of a deal ..you may say "well I'm over 18 so this wont afect me" ..it will affect you, it will limit your choices because publishers will be increasingly worried that their investment may come back to haunt them through litigation or negative press orchestrated by some righteous watchdog group who think it's their right to legislate what we can or cant watch/read/play. It's about time the gaming community starts to fight back

Here here!

I can't believe this crusade even picked up steam. How can we organize? If we organize, they'll call us a bunch of wackjobs anyway and say we can't be apart of the picture ... cuz like where brainwashed and stuff.

Anyone have any ideas on how HL2.net can make a mark?

 

[gick]

Anyone have any ideas on how HL2.net can make a mark?

Sign a petition assuring the US senate that there are over 16000 of us and as yet, only Short Recoil has gone on a murderous rampage (and that was more due to his superhuman levels of testosterone than violent games).

 

[Yuri]

I can't believe this went this far.

Seriously, what the f*ck is wrong with this place?

I just hope this sort of dumbass bullshit doesn't seep into other countries.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Truthfully, I just don't want to loose some of the games and mods I've been waiting for.

 

[CptStern]

any existing games might get toned down but they wouldnt cease production on them just because prohibative legislation might be pending before game release ..too much is at risk at that point ..no ..this affects the "pitch" stage of game development. ie: a developer with a concept goes to publisher who then either accepts or rejects the concept

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Ah. I see.

 

[Direwolf]

I can't believe this went this far.

Seriously, what the f*ck is wrong with this place?

I just hope this sort of dumbass bullshit doesn't seep into other countries.

Stupidness is universal the world over. Other countries have equally bad, if not worse records with videogames as the US.

And I agree with a recent post over at Penny-Arcade. You can't organize gamers because theres too many of us in too many countries in too many age groups with too many political views. We're as varied as people with any other hobby. That said, it makes it that much harder to marginalize us when we're so prevalent.

 

[Yuri]

Its as if the world wants no one to have fun.

Seriously, all kinds of hobbies are constantly being banned. Actually, I'm just thinking of airsoft. And airsoft has a much harsher reason than video games. But it still pisses me off.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Can't we unify under the banner we dislike sponsored/funded forms of creative oppression over the games we'd like to play or invent?

 

[Sulkdodds]

We could call it 'Reason'. BF2-playing Robin Williams could be the Voice of Reason.

Why are all you US dudes so pissed over age group censorship anyway? 12, 15, 18 - it's all good. There should be penalties for selling an 18 game to a 15 year old kid. Here, the shops aren't allowed to do it. If the child wants it they've gotta get their parents to do it in which case it's the parent's responsibility. What's wrong with that?

Is it because in the US, 18-rated stuff has some crazy stigma attached to it so it won't sell? If so, that stigma is retarded (the first time I've ever used that word in a debate!).

 

[DeusExMachina]

If you're under 18, you have to have a parent with you to buy the game. I get away with it ocassionally.

 

[Direwolf]

Theres no 18 and older stigma, at least not really. The problem is that if we give an inch we might end up giving a mile. Most of these politicians are not going to be sated by mere age restrictions.

That said, I'm not against age restrictions. But why should they be worse and more restrictive than with movies?

 

[CptStern]

AO (adults only ...GTA: San andreas is rated AO) has a stigma attached to it ...most retailers (like walmart) wont carry AO titles ...what if (as is proposed in some states) a bill is passed that equates violence with pornography? labeling the violent content "obscene" therefore it merits the Adults Only title ...you can see where that will eventually lead ..AO means poor distribution = low market penetration = low sales = financial loss

 

[kaf11]

When will all this bullshit stop? It will be a sad day when game makers have to bow down to government pressure.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

I say go ahead with the banning. Computer games stole my life away from me

 

[Sulkdodds]

AO (adults only ...GTA: San andreas is rated AO) has a stigma attached to it ...most retailers (like walmart) wont carry AO titles ...what if (as is proposed in some states) a bill is passed that equates violence with pornography? labeling the violent content "obscene" therefore it merits the Adults Only title ...you can see where that will eventually lead ..AO means poor distribution = low market penetration = low sales = financial loss

Then someone should start the Campaign to Remove the Stick from the Arse of American Retailers.
That's the only answer really. Retailers stop being such bitches and start carrying AO titles since the average gamer age is like 30, and nobody's afraid to make AO games while at the same time, nobody can blame the games for teaching kids to kill since they shouldn't be sold to kids.

That said, the really worrying thing is the attitude the self-appointed moral guardians of society take to the whole thing - the Tennessee Bill being a good example of this.

 

[Direwolf]

Well for the record you have to REALLY REALLY push it to get an AO rating. Really it just has to be straight-up porn usually. For instance, Postal 2 had an M rating I believe.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Now I see why it's so eminently stupid for GTASA to have an AO rating. Long ago, someone said that saying SA is pornographic is like ripping leafs from a porn magazine, stuffing them between the pages of the bible and calling to ban the bible. While this isn't technically true, it is like crossing out words in the bible to create sexual innuendos.

 

[CptStern]

Well for the record you have to REALLY REALLY push it to get an AO rating. Really it just has to be straight-up porn usually. For instance, Postal 2 had an M rating I believe.

not necessarily true

Leisure Suit Larry is rated AO ..and it only features:

Mature Humor,Nudity,Strong Language,Strong Sexual Content,Use of Alcohol

source

..it featured nothing that could be construed as hardcore pornography ..there is no penetration in the game ..just nudity


same goes for GTA: san andreas, it's rated AO but features no intercourse ..not unless you mod it in and even then there is no penetration ..just simulated sex with the offending parts blocked out

Then someone should start the Campaign to Remove the Stick from the Arse of American Retailers.
That's the only answer really. Retailers stop being such bitches and start carrying AO titles since the average gamer age is like 30, and nobody's afraid to make AO games while at the same time, nobody can blame the games for teaching kids to kill since they shouldn't be sold to kids.

they wont ..retailers like Walmart have put in great effort to make themselves "family friendly" so they wouldnt sell a product that could potentially make them a target of parent groups

..they'll sell guns and ammo but pixilated T and A is out of the question

 

[Sulkdodds]

Bitches.

However, I predict the advent of digital distribution may solve everybody's problems in much the same way as specialty comic stores did for comics in the late 70s to 80s.

 

[CptStern]

heh ..direct distrubution saved comics but it also halved it's readership ..so many companies lost their shirts and shut down in the mid eighties ..only corporate comics and a handful of established little guys survived that era

but digital distribution is a different matter all together ..it could be the push gaming needs to enter into new realms of creativity ..no longer do developers have to to be a slave to distributor's whims

 

[CptStern]

here's an interesting bit of news:


Secret Shoppers Hunt for M-Rated Games

"This morning the Federal Trade Commission released the results of a recent nationwide undercover shop that tested how easy (or difficult) it was to purchase M-rated games as a minor.

In 2000, 85% of shoppers were able to nab an M-rated title. During last year's shop, that number halved to 42%. Additionally, when minors tried to purchase M-rated games during the sting 44% of retail employees offered information about the ratings system and 50% of cashiers asked the child's age.

With video game violence and the ease of acquiring M-rated games frequently the targets of heavy criticism from politicians and pundits, the FTC's report is a bright spot for the game industry. "

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149165

they'll use this against the ratings system ..nothing more than 0% is acceptable

 

[Direwolf]

not necessarily true

Leisure Suit Larry is rated AO ..and it only features:

Mature Humor,Nudity,Strong Language,Strong Sexual Content,Use of Alcohol

source

..it featured nothing that could be construed as hardcore pornography ..there is no penetration in the game ..just nudity


same goes for GTA: san andreas, it's rated AO but features no intercourse ..not unless you mod it in and even then there is no penetration ..just simulated sex with the offending parts blocked out

For San Andreas it only got slapped with the AO after the whole Hot Coffee thing, which was stupid from any angle you see it. And while Leisure Suit Larry is an odd exception, they did make both an AO and M rated version. I have to wonder if it wasn't done just for the publicity. But anyone who's played God of War or A Bards Tale or many other games can attest that you can get away with just about everything and still nail an M rating.

 

[smwScott]

That's not really true, God of War didn't have much more than some bare titties. As it stands right now if games go anywhere near the level of sexuality you see in R rated movies they get slapped with an AO. Seriously, Hot Coffee wasn't that bad, it would've easily fit into an R rated movie and no one would have batted an eye. Sex in games is strictly censored, while there's virtually no limit on violence.

Here's a good example. In Kill Bill they had to switch a good chunk of the final fight scene into black and white, partially because without that it would've gone straight to NC-17 (and partially because of homage to classic martial films that used the same technique to slip by the ratings system). Games exceed this level of violence constantly, even some of the more mild ones. Compare Manhunt to something like Hostel, blows it out of the water. However anything more than some naked tits and mild suggestion will send it straight to AO, effectively banning it.

 

[Yuri]

We could call it 'Reason'. BF2-playing Robin Williams could be the Voice of Reason.

Why are all you US dudes so pissed over age group censorship anyway? 12, 15, 18 - it's all good. There should be penalties for selling an 18 game to a 15 year old kid. Here, the shops aren't allowed to do it. If the child wants it they've gotta get their parents to do it in which case it's the parent's responsibility. What's wrong with that?

Is it because in the US, 18-rated stuff has some crazy stigma attached to it so it won't sell? If so, that stigma is retarded (the first time I've ever used that word in a debate!).

No, its because if that law were to be enforced, the ESRB would have to be government run. It is currently independant from government control. Store can really choose if they sell M games to minors or not, but most places don't. Working in retail myself, the rules are avoided when you tell the kid to go get their parents. Or you just sell it to them cuz you don't give a shit.

If the game rating system were government-run, you will see crazy-ass restrictions in place. Games will get ridiculous ratings, and stores will be paranoid about selling M games at all, since they don't want to be fined to hell if some cashier (ahem ) decides to sell a minor the game, and effectively break the law.

 

[Direwolf]

God of War may have just had some bare breasts and a not-on-screen threesome, but a few other games like the above mention Bards Tale have sex in them, plane and simple (you can go to a brothel and get a prostitute, and its a whole-lot-more than just car shaking).

 

[CptStern]

but no penetration

 

[CookieCuttah]

They'll eventually find something else to harass, it's just a cycle.

 

[Direwolf]

but no penetration

No, but I really don't care. Thats not exactly necessary for your average videogame, even if it is a arbitrary distinction.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not saying it is ..but it's the deciding factor (or it used to be) between AO and M ratings ..most AO titles are interactive porn sold in porn shops and online

 

[Flyingdebris]

where's that old videogame industry lawyer guy? is he at that conference?

if he's there everything will be allright.

 

[JellyWorld]

I still don't understand what people have against violence or nudity.

 

[CptStern]

UPDATE:
Psychologists and anti-game activists verbally spar with free-speech advocates, industry reps at Capitol Hill session

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2006/03/30/news_6146902.html?part=rss&tag=gs_&subj=6146902


first up to testify was Reverend Steve Strickland. Strickland's Police officer brother was murdered in 2003 by a young criminal named who claimed to have played Grand Theft Auto: Vice City before committing the killing. He had this to say about video games:

""As I gather more information on the games and the people who call themselves 'gamers,' I could see how someone like Devin, who at one minute did not put up any resistance ... [could take] my brother’s gun from him in the police station, shooting him and then killing two other men in a matter of less then two minutes," said Strickland. "A game such as Grand Theft Auto: Vice City could and did teach him how to do this."

lay off the crack reverend

he had this to say about Jack Thompson:

"As a minister I deal with a lot of different issues and try to stay up and become educated on them but Jack opened up a whole other world to me that I did not even know existed," he said. "This is the violent video game world--a world that, as far as I am concerned, is straight from the pits of hell."

consorting with the devil is a sin Reverend ..lay off the crack and go to confession


Next up was Dr. Elizabeth Carll, chair of the Interactive Media Committee of the Media Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association (APA)

"there are many video games that are very helpful for children to facilitate medical treatment, increase learning, and promote pro-social behavior," she turned her attention to "games that include aggression, violence, and sexualized violence. "may have a negative impact on children," Carll went on to declare that "a comprehensive [APA] analysis of violence in interactive video game research suggests exposure increases aggressive behavior, aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, and decreases helpful behavior."

she also asked that the game industry "link violent behaviors with negative social consequences" to promote better social behavior.


next up was Dr. David Bickham, a research scientist at the Center on Media and Child Health at Children's Hospital Boston. He had this to say:

"there are reasons to believe that the influences of violent video games are stronger than those of other forms of screen violence." He pointed out that games are interactive, reward the player for completing tasks, and "require almost complete attention" from the player.

"video games are designed to be incredibly engaging and 'fun,' often leading children to slip deeply into a 'flow state' in which they may be at increased susceptibility to the messages of the game. Scientific research has repeatedly demonstrated that children learn what video games teach, and often that lesson is doing violence."


next up ws the only member of the game industry at the event, Entertainment Software Rating Board president Patricia Vance (WTF? the industry couldnt be bothered to support their work?)

"the issues being discussed in today’s hearing are critically important, especially to parents." She also asserted that the "self-regulatory [ESRB] system offers a valuable, reliable and credible tool to make the right video game choices for their families."

She then went on to break down how 50 percent of the games released in 2005 were rated E for Everyone, 12 percent were rated E10+ for Everyone ages 10 and up, 24 percent were rated T for Teen, and 12 percent were rated M for Mature. She said the remaining two percent were made up of the fringe ratings EC for Early Childhood and AO for Adults Only."

"Naturally, the subject then turned to the most famous incident regarding the ESRB, last year's so-called "Hot Coffee" scandal regarding Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Rather than deem it a failure, Vance asserted the incident "showed how effective and forceful an enforcement system we have at our disposal."

"I submit that there is no other industry self-regulatory system willing or capable of imposing such sweeping sanctions on its own members, which in this particular case resulted in the removal of a top-selling product from the market, a major loss of sales and a drop in shareholder value," she said


next up was Jeff Johnson, the Republican Assistant Majority Leader of the Minnesota House of Representatives

Johnson took a more serious tone when describing, somewhat inaccurately, a Grand Theft Auto game, presumably San Andreas. "The more creative and brutal you are in killing innocent people, the more respect you gain and the more points you score."

"Johnson went on to outline a bill he is sponsoring in the Minnesota legislature which would fine children $25 every time they attempt to buy with M-rated and AO-rated games. "In our Minnesota bill, we have crafted very narrow language in order to address the constitutional concerns that exist about content-based restrictions of speech," he said. "We are not restricting adults or parents in any way. If a parent is comfortable with their child playing adult video games, we don’t interfere with that."


the most imprtant testimony in my opinion came from video game attorney Paul Smith. he had this to say:


Throughout his testimony, Smith cited dozens of legal decisions, many of which were made in cases he personally argued. "In each case I have been involved with, as well as every other to consider the issue, courts have struck down as unconstitutional legal restrictions on minors’ access to 'violent' video games," he said.

The crux of Smith's testimony is that, like film or books, games are a form of expression. "Video games feature the artwork of leading graphic artists, as well as music--much of it original--that enhances the game's artistic expression in the same way as movie soundtracks," he said. "These games often contain storylines and character development as detailed as [and sometimes based on] books and movies. These games frequently involve familiar themes such as good versus evil, triumph over adversity, and struggle against corrupt powers."

The attorney went on to explain that "Every court to have considered the issue has found 'violent' video game laws would not pass constitutional muster because the government lacks a legitimate and compelling interest in restricting video game content. Under well-settled First Amendment principles, expression may not be censored on the theory that it will cause some recipient to act inappropriately, unless it falls into the narrow category of speech 'directed to inciting' and 'likely' to incite 'imminent' violence."


most dangerous testimony and what I believe to be the tactic of many anti-game legislators:

Kevin Saunders, a Professor of Law at Michigan State University had this to say:

"there are bases on which restrictions may overcome First Amendment limits and protect children from the dangers these products present." The first basis the professor cited "is to argue that sufficiently violent material, particularly when presented to children, may come within the obscenity exception to the First Amendment." After mentioning an Indiana case in which this approach worked, he also mentioned that the Supreme Court has never ruled that violent material cannot be restricted.

Saunders' second legal basis will likely prove the most troubling to gamers. This approach would argue that "is that video game play, like the play of pinball machines, is not an activity protected by the First Amendment." It would legally differentiate the expression of a game designer, which would be protected, from the playing of games, which would not be. As an example, he compared a sexually provocative dancer's movements, which is a performance and therefore expression, to a gamer playing in an arcade, which is not, even though others were watching him."


in other words ..technically a game cannot use the "freedom of speech" because it's not a creative expression but rather an interactive one


http://www.gamespot.com/news/2006/03/30/news_6146902.html?part=rss&tag=gs_&subj=6146902


the gaming industry is in trouble

 

[Razor]

Minors should not have access to violent games and games of an adult nature, any laws that enforces sales of violent games, and other media, to minors are very welcome in my opinion. However, no restrictions should be put on adults who wish to purchase an adult rated game that is violent, etc. If this law means less 10year olds playing gta3, it is a good thing, if this law means less 25year olds playing gta3, the law is a bad thing.

 

[CptStern]

read the entire article ..they dont want ANYONE to play violent video games ...if violence can be defined legally as obscenity then all games with violent content will be rated AO ..meaning it's death in retail

 

[Yuri]

Minors should not have access to violent games and games of an adult nature, any laws that enforces sales of violent games, and other media, to minors are very welcome in my opinion. However, no restrictions should be put on adults who wish to purchase an adult rated game that is violent, etc. If this law means less 10year olds playing gta3, it is a good thing, if this law means less 25year olds playing gta3, the law is a bad thing.

To add to what Stern said, if laws were passed, that would mean the ESRB would be scrapped, since its not government run. A rating system provided by the government would take its place-- and you can assume this rating system will mean jack shit, be a billion times more ridiculously strict, and not bother to take more than a few hairy slimy politicians into account -- instead of the general public.

 

[CptStern]

one of the proposed rating systems would be to detail every single questionable act on the back of the box (I guess boxes will quadruple in size) as a guideline for parents to decide whether to buy a game or not ...I guess glancing at a big letter "M" is too much trouble