Should it be illegal to make racist speeches in public?

[The Monkey]

We've had an attended case in Sweden were a priest spoke about how homosexuality was a sin and that homosexuality is something that needs to be destroyed, in a sermon (in front of 20 people). He was arrested for that, but was later released. It's illegal to "bait" someone, but we also have freedom of speech, so it's not easy to know how to judge. The district court judged him to six months of prison, while the court of appeal released him.
I know that you don't care much about Sweden, but it could have happened anywhere. What do you think? Should a court judge someone who insulted a group of people, or should he/she have right so say what he/she wants, even in public? And this isn't just about insulting homosexuals, but other minority groups too.

 

[CptStern]

it's a fine line between opinion and hate crime ...hate crime is illegal in canada ..a hate crime in canada is defined as:

Advocating genocide (s.318[1]). Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.


Public incitement of hatred (s. 319[1]). Every one who, by communicating statements in a public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of [a crime].


Wilful promotion of hatred (s. 319[2]). Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of [a crime].


so this priest would indeed be guilty of a hate crime in canada

 

[The Monkey]

This is the swedish law:

Brottsbalk 16 kap 8 § Den som i uttalande eller i annat meddelande som sprids hotar eller uttrycker missaktning för folkgrupp eller annan sådan grupp av personer med anspelning på ras, hudfärg, nationellt eller etniskt ursprung, trosbekännelse eller sexuell läggning, döms för hets mot folkgrupp till fängelse i högst två år eller om brottet är ringa, till böter.
Är brottet grovt döms till fängelse i lägst sex månader och högst fyra år. Vid bedömande av om brottet är grovt skall särskilt beaktas om meddelandet haft ett särskilt hotfullt eller kränkande innehåll och spritts till ett stort antal personer på ett sätt som varit ägnat att väcka betydande uppmärksamhet. Lag (2002:800).

My own translation(poor, I know, but better than nothing):

Crimesection,16th chapter §8 He/she who in utterance or in other message spreads, threatens or express disdain for ethnic group or other group of persons with allude on race , skin colour , national or ethnic derivation , creed or sexual disposition, is judged for “hate-crime” to prison to the most two years, or if the crime is slight, to fine.
Is the crime serious he/she is judged to jail, at the lowest six months and at the most four years. When considering if the crime is serious the court shall especially consider if the message had one especially threatening or violating content and if it was spread to a large number of people in a manner that was meant to grow considerable attention. Law (2002800.

 

[CptStern]

ya, so they have a case against the priest ...funny how a man of god can be jailed for spreading hate

...freedom of speech is only freedom of speech till you infringe on someone elses freedom

 

[Razor]

We've had an attended case in Sweden were a priest spoke about how homosexuality was a sin and that homosexuality is something that needs to be destroyed, in a sermon (in front of 20 people). He was arrested for that, but was later released. It's illegal to "bait" someone, but we also have freedom of speech, so it's not easy to know how to judge. The district court judged him to six months of prison, while the court of appeal released him.
I know that you don't care much about Sweden, but it could have happened anywhere. What do you think? Should a court judge someone who insulted a group of people, or should he/she have right so say what he/she wants, even in public? And this isn't just about insulting homosexuals, but other minority groups too.

He is only doing what George W Bush and most American politicians are doing, so....yes it is highly immoral and illegal to do that.

 

[No Limit]

That is absolutely insane; nobody should ever be jailed for something they say. The KKK for example is one of the worst organizations in the US in my opinion; I can't stand anything they say but I would never refuse them the right to say it. I have the freedom to not listen to them; they should have the freedom to say it.

 

[The Monkey]

That is absolutely insane; nobody should ever be jailed for something they say. The KKK for example is one of the worst organizations in the US in my opinion; I can't stand anything they say but I would never refuse them the right to say it. I have the freedom to not listen to them; they should have the freedom to say it.

This is another example at the differance between the US and europe. In (Northern) Europe, the KKK wouldn't be allowed to hold public speeches, but they would be allowed to hold meetings.

 

[No Limit]

This is another example at the differance between the US and europe. In (Northern) Europe, the KKK wouldn't be allowed to hold public speeches, but they would be allowed to hold meetings.

But why? Every time the KKK goes out they are pretty much spit on by the public. This is a great way of showing that most of the population is sane and completely disagrees with what they are saying.

 

[Rupertvdb]

if the term racist is apllied in the correct fashion. Racism can be understood as prejudice combined with action.

I'd say a racist speech should be considered inappropirate within a democratic society because it is not a reasonable opinion to hold and incites violence and division within a community. Saying that speech that targets specific groups within a society is common to all sorts of situations. People's freedom of speech should not be inhibited no matter how remote it may be from considered norms.

Personally i'd say 'racism' can be applied to situations that would not require criminal action to be taken. The point at which police intervention should be used is when racism becomes incitement and results in violence or bias towards people's liberties i.e. career inhibition, segregation.

 

[Wraith]

while i find racism atrocious, censorship is much worse

 

[Ennui]

while i find racism atrocious, censorship is much worse

thats exactly how I feel about it.

 

[GhostFox]

If they say "I hate Jews" then no, it should not be illegal.
If they say "I hate Jews, lets go kill them all" then yes, it should be illegal.

Anytime they actively incite violence, it should be a crime. If the only thing getting hurt are peoples' feelings, you are within your rights.

Just my $.02

 

[CptStern]

If they say "I hate Jews" then no, it should not be illegal.
If they say "I hate Jews, lets go kill them all" then yes, it should be illegal.

Anytime they actively incite violence, it should be a crime. If the only thing getting hurt are peoples' feelings, you are within your rights.

Just my $.02

not in canada ..maybe you can recall the case that is currently in front of the courts ..should be no problem ..it made national headlines for months

 

[GhostFox]

Every time the KKK goes out they are pretty much spit on by the public. This is a great way of showing that most of the population is sane and completely disagrees with what they are saying.

I have to agree with No Limit here. All the KKK rallies do is show how out of touch and hated they are by society. I don't even know if hated is the correct word, becuase they are so comical now. I think every KKK speech helps eliminate racism by showing how foolish racist people are.

 

[Absinthe]

If they say "I hate Jews" then no, it should not be illegal.
If they say "I hate Jews, lets go kill them all" then yes, it should be illegal.

Seconded.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm absolutely surprised by how many people have voted for yes. In fact, it's quite scary.

 

[HunterSeeker]

In sweden you are allowed to print or say whatever you want without anyone preventing you from printing or saying it, its only after you have done that that they can take legal action against you.

 

[Razor]

Seconded.

Thirded.



If a person came up to me and told me he didn't like me because of the colour of my skin and walk away, i would shrug it off and carry on. It is a completely different story when politicians start denying my rights because of my sexuality. And they call America "the land of the free"

Anyway, back onto topic, yes, i do think what the priest did was wrong and he should be punished for it, he was not only expressing his views of homosexuality, but he was also pushing those views onto his followers.

In sweden you are allowed to print or say whatever you want without anyone preventing you from printing or saying it, its only after you have done that that they can take legal action against you

Which is how it should be all over the world.

 

[gh0st]

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.

 

[GhostFox]

not in canada ..maybe you can recall the case that is currently in front of the courts

The Canadian legal system is screwed up. What's your point?

 

[smwScott]

Censorship is one of the worst evils any government can perpetrate. It in and of itself is a terrible thing, but history has shown that actions such as that often serve as a stepping stone to more invasive actions.

Anyone, anywhere, at anytime should be aloud to speak their mind. What is defined as offensive or racist is often determined by popular opinion. No one should ever be prosecuted for speaking their mind, no matter what it may be.

Although I always knew Canada had a tighter hold on what is considered "free speech" than America, I'm very surprised that the definition of hate crime encompasses such a large spectrum. I have to say I've lost a little chunk of respect for Canada's government.

 

[bvasgm]

Even though it's wrong to, people should be allowed to say whatever they want...Also, I whonder who's the ass that voted: "they deserve what they get".

 

[CptStern]

The Canadian legal system is screwed up. What's your point?

ya that's it! ..hey pull out today's winnepeg edition of the globe and mail ..should be there somewhere

 

[GhostFox]

I don't normally get the G&M. I get the Free Press and National Post daily though. Only pick up the Globe if I see something interesting.

 

[KoreBolteR]

ya, so they have a case against the priest ...funny how a man of god can be jailed for spreading hate

...freedom of speech is only freedom of speech till you infringe on someone elses freedom

what can you say.. hes a priest, have you heard all the bad media stories on priests lately?

paedophiles, rapist etc... like i said, religion is ruining the world. ;(

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I'm absolutely surprised by how many people have voted for yes. In fact, it's quite scary.

I'm in agreeance. No was the best answer ... I mean, No, they have a right to say what they want.

paedophiles, rapist etc... like i said, religion is ruining the world.

Not all religious people are like ... that, however. I'd appreciate it if you had'nt generalized.

 

[CptStern]

I don't normally get the G&M. I get the Free Press and National Post daily though. Only pick up the Globe if I see something interesting.

which Free Press? Canada Free Press or Winnepeg Free Press

 

[The Monkey]

As I said, it's a hard case, but we aren't talking about goverment censor here, as HunterSeeker said, you are allowed to say anything, but afterwards you will be responseable for your actions.
With a democracy comes freedom of speech, yes, but with it also comes the freedom to live like you want to do, and be the way you want, and not being harassed by people who doesn't like you for it.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

what can you say.. hes a priest, have you heard all the bad media stories on priests lately?

paedophiles, rapist etc... like i said, religion is ruining the world. ;(

Have you heard all those stories about suicide bombers?...I'm telling you, those palestinians are ruining the world :|
What about those men eh? Have you seen the amount of crime caused by men. They're an atrocity, I think they should be outlawed.



The whole racist speech thing is a big grey area. Thats the problem, you can't simply draw a line and say this is right and this is wrong when it comes to things like that, because there will always be someone who says the line should be moved. Just because they're the minority doesn't mean they should be ignored. This is however where democracy fails, because the majority gets to make the decisions. The majority rules. Its just wrong.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Have you heard all those stories about suicide bombers?...I'm telling you, those palestinians are ruining the world :|
What about those men eh? Have you seen the amount of crime caused by men. They're an atrocity, I think they should be outlawed.



The whole racist speech thing is a big grey area. Thats the problem, you can't simply draw a line and say this is right and this is wrong when it comes to things like that, because there will always be someone who says the line should be moved. Just because they're the minority doesn't mean they should be ignored. This is however where democracy fails, because the majority gets to make the decisions. The majority rules. Its just wrong.

im agreeing with you, but how could we make it better? hmm

 

[Javert]

Unfortunately, they have the freedom of speech to say whatever they want. Of course, we can always reply in turn (or just ignore).

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Farrow just spread you guys on crackers ... its the truth. Racism=not black, but grey.

 

[RZAL]

The grey area is the fine line between black and white, nothing more than an illusion.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

So, then Racism is just something we make up? Hmmm ...

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It is legal to hold or speak about any opinion.

Any illegal actions stemming from racist opinions are hate crimes, speeches and talking aren't.


The thing is about free speech, the door swings both ways. Those making the comments are free of government/legal retalliation, but are sure as hell going to be rebuked by the public. They'll lose everything they have tied to private citizens.

 

[el Chi]

That is absolutely insane; nobody should ever be jailed for something they say. The KKK for example is one of the worst organizations in the US in my opinion; I can't stand anything they say but I would never refuse them the right to say it. I have the freedom to not listen to them; they should have the freedom to say it.

Well, it's when what they say seems to incite people to violence or hatred. For example:
"I hate white people. They're all c*nts."
That is an opinion, whereas:
"I hate white people. They're all c*nts and they should all be shot."
That's verging on incitement. Condoning violence against someone because of your own prejudices is not allowed. As far as I am aware.

The double-edged sword of freedom of speech. As Voltaire said: "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

[CptStern]

It is legal to hold or speak about any opinion.

Any illegal actions stemming from racist opinions are hate crimes, speeches and talking aren't.
.

in the US ..canada for example defines hatecrime as:



Advocating genocide (s.318[1]). Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.


Public incitement of hatred (s. 319[1]). Every one who, by communicating statements in a public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of [a crime].


Wilful promotion of hatred (s. 319[2]). Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of [a crime].



as you can see it's not just an action that is a hate crime ..words can be too

 

[GhostFox]

Winnipeg Free Press Stern. Oh, you'll be happy to know that Fox News is avail. on digital cable packages Canada wide now, so you can get it too

Hate crime laws are stupid to begin with. How as a parent would you feel if your white son was murdered and the guy gets 10 years, then a black guy is murdered in the same situation and the guy gets life. Is the govt. saying black/gay/anything but straight white guys lives are more important? People should be punished for the crime, not why they commited it.

All they do is breed resentment and hatred. When will people realize that special treatment breeds racism?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Yep ...

 

[RZAL]

So, then Racism is just something we make up? Hmmm ...

No silly, the whole grey area is something we just make up. Racism is just as real as gravity. The question here is when does this behavior become a criminal offense? Is when, or if I have racial thoughts, is it when I speak my racial thoughts or is when I use one of the previous to infringe on someones rights?

This so called grey area covers more than just racism, it is a compromise between whats right and wrong, therefore the grey area is nothing more than an illusion.