So where does this leave the "War on Terrorism"?

[MjM]

"We are fighting these terrorists with our military in Afghanistan and Iraq and beyond so we do not have to face them in the streets of our own cities."

New York, British Embassy's targeted in Turkey, Madrid and now London. If the AQ statement is legit, perhaps Italy and the Netherlands are also in line for such attacks. Also important to note, that everyweek in Iraq, attacks of this nature occur, causing just as much if not more death and destruction.

Perhaps that highlights the issue, the fact that the West exploits other parts of the world (as seen in bush's quote), all the while ignoring them while they suffer.

The war on terrorism is futile at best, as defined by Bush. But maybe if we adressed many of the legitimate grievances other parts of the world have with the West, terrorism would be a thing of the past.


I also quite liked this comment made on a website:

Bush's bastard child Iraq is breeding. More and more of them will emerge, with a life of there own. Meanwhile all he (Bush) can do, is to repeat lines his handlers given him. God, talk about an Antichrist.

Also,

Scheuer [ ... the former CIA Bin Laden analyst] believes that al-Qaeda is an insurgent ideology focused on destroying the United States and its allies, because its members believe that the US is trying to destroy them. Al-Qaeda members see the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Palestinians, backed by the US; US support for military regimes like those of Pakistan and Egypt; and US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence of a US onslaught on Islam and Muslims aimed at reducing them to neo-colonial slavery. That is, specific Western policies are the focus of al-Qaeda response, not a generalized "hatred" of [western] "values."

Suffice to say i think these attacks are the result of a bad rationale.


http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/implications-of-london-bombing-attack.html
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/
http://www.onegoodmove.org/movabletype/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=2221

 

[Mr Blonde]

Ooh... my first post. First of many I hope!

IMO the only way anyone will completely stamp out terrorism is if they destroy the human race. To rid the world of 'evil' is an impossible task. This current "war on terrorism" is just pouring oil onto the fire - pardon the pun. Until people start addressing why some people have come hate the US and anyone seen as an ally (or puppet) of the US things aren't going to get any better.

My two cents.

 

[MjM]

Hello,

And i completely agree. I hope Blair reacts to this in an intelligent way and it'll be a hard task to work towards a long term solution, but I'm sure it wouldn't required punishing a nation for the crimes of a few.

Don't take this as a limp wristed liberal response, where the perpetrators get away with a slap on the wrist. By all means hunt down and punish the people who committed this crime, they are evil murders and deserve to face justice.

 

[gh0st]

Its your first post so I'll be gentle. Bin Laden does not view just America and its Iraq war allies as the enemy. In late 2002 he claimed that countries like Canada and the Netherlands were viable targets. It has nothing to do with Iraq, Bin Laden could give less of a shit about it. France, Britain, Russia, all attacked by Muslim terrorists - none claim anything about vengeance for Iraq. This is something western appologists try to use to blame america for everything that happens. What happened to britain is the result of hatred not for foreign policy but for a representation of what we stand for which is NOT religious tyranny like they endorse. Please dont be so hasty to blame bush, blame america, blame the cia, whatever, its not our fault that these people exist and fester in the opressive middle east.

 

[MjM]

Huge war on the streets. no i dont think so. Hyperbole.
Apologists. How about the Bush apologists?

And Osama is one man in AQ, its questionable whether he does or does not have any real leadership role these days. I guess even if Osama motivation is purely based on what you say, that doesnt discount the fact that there could be factions of AQ that do carry out such acts because of the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Palestinians, backed by the US; US support for military regimes like those of Pakistan and Egypt; and US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence of a US onslaught on Islam and Muslims aimed at reducing them to neo-colonial slavery.

So you object to:

Scheuer [ ... the former CIA Bin Laden analyst] believes that al-Qaeda is an insurgent ideology focused on destroying the United States and its allies, because its members believe that the US is trying to destroy them. Al-Qaeda members see the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Palestinians, backed by the US; US support for military regimes like those of Pakistan and Egypt; and US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq as evidence of a US onslaught on Islam and Muslims aimed at reducing them to neo-colonial slavery. That is, specific Western policies are the focus of al-Qaeda response, not a generalized "hatred" of [western] "values."

from:
http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/impl...ng-attack.html


?

 

[Kangy]

After the London attacks, it's probably boosted public opinion in favour of any definitive action to kill or capture terrorists for what they've done to the world.

 

[MjM]

I dont mean to say anyone should go easy on terrorists, if your a terrorist then you deserve to face the law. I just think the outcome of this shouldn't be further warring abroad.

 

[Sulkdodds]

1. As a Brit I strongly hope the people who did this are brought to justice.
2. As a Brit I strongly hope this is not used as an excuse to invade a country, or kill innocent people, or make snap decisions and kill someone who actually had nothing to do with the attack.

 

[Absinthe]

1. As a Brit I strongly hope the people who did this are brought to justice.
2. As a Brit I strongly hope this is not used as an excuse to invade a country, or kill innocent people, or make snap decisions and kill someone who actually had nothing to do with the attack.

Every rational person should think something along the lines of this.

 

[Raxxman]

I agree about the fact that Iraq wasn't the cause.

I feel that religion isn't the cause.

I feel that people claiming asylum who bad mouth the government should be picked up and dumped back in their own country, if they don't like here, leave.

I feel that a softly softly approach isn't going to work on these people.

I feel any reprisal is going to kill innocents.

 

[DreamThrall]

I propose that the word "apologist" never be used in a political context again. It should probably be added to this list here. It sounds like one of those stupid words that pundits take and demonize and then throw around like they don't even remember what it means anymore (take the word "liberal" if you need another example). While I'm at it... take demonize away too.

2. As a Brit I strongly hope this is not used as an excuse to invade a country, or kill innocent people, or make snap decisions and kill someone who actually had nothing to do with the attack.

Yeah, like that's ever happened before...

 

[Spectre01]

Getting rid of terrorism is the same as getting rid of crime. Any person can become a criminal, any person can become a terrorist. There will always be crime, there will always be terrorism.

 

[CptStern]

1. As a Brit I strongly hope the people who did this are brought to justice.
2. As a Brit I strongly hope this is not used as an excuse to invade a country, or kill innocent people, or make snap decisions and kill someone who actually had nothing to do with the attack.

3. as a canadian I strongly believe bush and blair will use this opportunity to say "see? I told you so" and further try to justify the occupation of iraq

 

[CptStern]

Its your first post so I'll be gentle. Bin Laden does not view just America and its Iraq war allies as the enemy. In late 2002 he claimed that countries like Canada and the Netherlands were viable targets.

you're confusing facts ...he said canada and the netherlands were on the list because they supported the war in afghanistan ...anyways, osama hasnt claimed responsibility for this ....Secret Organization of al-Qaeda in Europe has ...what a stupid name. They also claimed responsibility for the madrid bombing but it turned out it was someone else ...so they could be full of shit... only time will tell who the real culprit is

It has nothing to do with Iraq, ......Bin Laden could give less of a shit about it. France, Britain, Russia, all attacked by Muslim terrorists - none claim anything about vengeance for Iraq. This is something western appologists try to use to blame america for everything that happens. What happened to britain is the result of hatred not for foreign policy but for a representation of what we stand for which is NOT religious tyranny like they endorse

not necessarily:


"We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all other crusader governments. We demand that all countries pull their troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq," the letter states


it hasnt been authenticated

 

[The Mullinator]

A little off-topic but I saw this is the paper today and thought it summed up nicely what the rest of the world views (or at least what I think it views) the way Britain is taking this attack.

http://www.comics.com/editoons/parker/archive/images/parker2005261600707.jpg

 

[No Limit]

Its your first post so I'll be gentle. Bin Laden does not view just America and its Iraq war allies as the enemy. In late 2002 he claimed that countries like Canada and the Netherlands were viable targets. It has nothing to do with Iraq, Bin Laden could give less of a shit about it. France, Britain, Russia, all attacked by Muslim terrorists - none claim anything about vengeance for Iraq. This is something western appologists try to use to blame america for everything that happens. What happened to britain is the result of hatred not for foreign policy but for a representation of what we stand for which is NOT religious tyranny like they endorse. Please dont be so hasty to blame bush, blame america, blame the cia, whatever, its not our fault that these people exist and fester in the opressive middle east.

So why do they exist if it has nothing to do with us? Are you telling me these people are killing themselves for the hell of it?

 

[Gray Fox]

madrid,london, Hmmm, holland might be next.

 

[The Monkey]

madrid,london, Hmmm, holland might be next.

Is Holland in Iraq?

 

[kirovman]

Is Holland in Iraq?

No it's in Western Europe.

 

[jondy]

No it's in Western Europe.

heheh.

 

[Raziaar]

So where's the people saying that Britain deserved this attack, like you said America deserved 9/11?

 

[CptStern]

So where's the people saying that Britain deserved this attack, like you said America deserved 9/11?

please shut up raziaar, that's a low blow ..have some respect for the dead

 

[Raziaar]

please shut up raziaar, that's a low blow ..have some respect for the dead

Excuse me? I have the UTMOST sympathy for the people who died. I was depressed yesterday to hear about the attacks, i'm just aggrivated people didn't feel the same way to the americans who lost their lives in a similiar manner.

So you, please Stern... shut up. You completely misread my post. Its not like I'm the one started drolling on about politics just moments after it happened!

 

[Sulkdodds]

It probably is our fault. But that's for later.

 

[Raziaar]

It probably is our fault. But that's for later.

I don't think its the Civilians faults. They don't deserve to die because of something their government does, even if they supported or did not support it.

To me... saying its someones fault, like saying those people who died caused it, is just demeaning their death. They didn't deserve it at all.

 

[CptStern]

Excuse me? I have the UTMOST sympathy for the people who died. I was depressed yesterday to hear about the attacks, i'm just aggrivated people didn't feel the same way to the americans who lost their lives in a similiar manner.

So you, please Stern... shut up. You completely misread my post. Its not like I'm the one started drolling on about politics just moments after it happened!

it wasnt moments it was hours and I didnt "droll" on (you mean drone right?) ..I offered my condolences and commented on the reason why it happened

and you ARE trolling for flames:

"So where's the people saying that Britain deserved this attack"


you're accusing people of justifying the attacks on london ..before they've even said as much

 

[Raziaar]

it wasnt moments it was hours and I didnt "droll" on (you mean drone right?) ..I offered my condolences and commented on the reason why it happened

and you ARE trolling for flames:

"So where's the people saying that Britain deserved this attack"


you're accusing people of justifying the attacks on london ..before they've even said as much

Because i'm trying to figure out why the international community feels more sympathy for Britain than they did for America when they were attacked. I'm pointing out that people ATTACKED america with their hateful words after 9/11, and am just seeing the hypocracy.

People died... it wasn't in any way due to the decisions those individuals made, except for getting up that morning and doing what they did. It was a tragedy, just like 9/11 was a tragedy. I don't think either should be lessened at all. They're equally horrific, but it doesn't seem like the international community thinks so. And i'm not here to troll, i'm here to figure out why they think the Britain thing is so much more of a big deal than the america bombings.

Like you for instance... I see your new avatar. Thats nice, but would you have made one similiar when 9/11 happened to show that you stand by them and feel sorry for what happened to them? I didn't think so.

 

[Kangy]

Raziaar makes a valid point, some people were very cold shouldered towards the US in 2001. Perhaps these people have simply learnt that no civilian ever deserves this, and that their previous reaction was simply a gut one, and they've learnt to think a little before they speak.

gh0st, that was quite harsh. I don't think that's fair at all.

 

[KagePrototype]

For god's sake people, if you cant discuss these things rationally and maturely, you're not discussing it at all. I'm keeping the thread open however because I know some people want to discuss this like civilised people.

 

[Absinthe]

Because i'm trying to figure out why the international community feels more sympathy for Britain than they did for America when they were attacked. I'm pointing out that people ATTACKED america with their hateful words after 9/11, and am just seeing the hypocracy.

That is utter bullshit, Raziaar. When 9/11 happened, there was widespread and deep-felt sympathy for the American people. Criticism only arose when Bush singlehandedly turned that sympathy into disdain.

Nobody claimed that we deserved it. However, many people eventually recognized it as an inevitability that was in no small way brought about by our foreign policy.

 

[Raziaar]

That is utter bullshit, Raziaar. When 9/11 happened, there was widespread and deep-felt sympathy for the American people. Criticism only arose when Bush singlehandedly turned that sympathy into disdain.

Nobody claimed that we deserved it. However, many people eventually recognized it as an inevitability that was in no small way brought about by our foreign policy.

Have you been living under a rock? America recieved great criticism very rapidly after the attacks happened, and there wasn't as much sympathy as there is now for the british bombings.

But... whatever, if thats what you want to believe. I don't really need you to confirm it to know that america recieved a 'cold shoulder' as kangy put it, moreso than britain is now. Many people claimed we deserved it, and frankly you're a fool to think otherwise.

Oh well... I've already made my points, and don't really feel the need to reiterate with 'you' anymore than I already did, Absinthe.

And why do you keep saying 'we'? Don't you live in switzerland? You've never struck me as an american, even an american living in another country... mainly because you're always bashing the country. You're just a Swiss to me. So you don't really strike any chords when you say 'we' as if you were an american all the time.

 

[jondy]

Have you been living under a rock? America recieved great criticism very rapidly after the attacks happened, and there wasn't as much sympathy as there is now for the british bombings.

That's contrary to what I felt over here, pretty much the whole of the Western world was devastated by the news. Statements like 'Have you been living under a rock?' don't really push the discussion in a helpful direction, either.

 

[Raziaar]

That's contrary to what I felt over here, pretty much the whole of the Western world was devastated by the news. Statements like 'Have you been living under a rock?' don't really push the discussion in a helpful direction, either.

Well... I only said it because he called what I said utter bullshit. lol

Frankly, I don't have the time to deal with him. Frankly, I would love to of seen the same international community support for 'both' tragedies, as they are equal in their severity.

The sad thing is... there was even less support for the Bali bombings. It was really mainly just a headline maker than it was a tragedy, in many peoples eyes. The only big thing about it, was that people from western countries died in the explosions. There were even far more deaths than the british bombings, yet for most people it was just headline news. And thats just sick.

* Australian 88
* Indonesian 38 (the majority Balinese)
* British 26
* American 7
* German 6
* Swedish 5
* Dutch 4
* French 4
* Danish 3
* New Zealanders 3
* Swiss 3
* Brazilian 2
* Canadian 2
* Japanese 2
* South African 2
* South Korean 2
* Ecuadorian 1
* Greek 1
* Italian 1
* Polish 1
* Portuguese 1
* Taiwanese 1

 

[Absinthe]

Have you been living under a rock? America recieved great criticism very rapidly after the attacks happened, and there wasn't as much sympathy as there is now for the british bombings.

Actually, the question would be best put to you. Sympathy for America at the time of 9/11 was unquestionably large. As somebody who lives abroad, I can say with personal experience under my belt that there was no ill will or a sense of "justice" when the towers fell.

Did some people see this as comeuppance? Of course. But that applies to the current tragedy as well. But I'm sorry that your isolated existence in the United States has blinded you to the world. You clearly want to be a victim in an anti-American world when you couldn't be farther from reality.

But... whatever, if thats what you want to believe. I don't really need you to confirm it to know that america recieved a 'cold shoulder' as kangy put it, moreso than britain is now. Many people claimed we deserved it, and frankly you're a fool to think otherwise.

Oh well... I've already made my points, and don't really feel the need to reiterate with 'you' anymore than I already did, Absinthe.

Frankly, you're an idiot if you were oblivious to the world's reaction. No, you don't need to reiterate things to me because the most I could look forward to is more noxious condescendence.

And why do you keep saying 'we'? Don't you live in switzerland? You've never struck me as an american, even an american living in another country... mainly because you're always bashing the country. You're just a Swiss to me. So you don't really strike any chords when you say 'we' as if you were an american all the time.

How sad.

Am I no longer allowed to refer to myself as American? Can I not be considered part of a nation and therefore no longer use "we"? Am I too "Swiss" (whatever the **** that means)?
Sorry, Raziaar. I have no idea what the common Swiss ideology would be, and neither would you. So your labelling only rings hollow. Nor do I attempt to drum up any kinship between you and I when I say "we", because I don't require or desire it with a person who sees different views regarding an administration as America bashing.

Never mind that your little jab had absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Raziaar]

What jab? I'm not the one posting jabs here. Was me calling you Swiss supposed to be a jab? No... you claim to post as an american. I just don't see it. And I say 'swiss', because I don't know the proper term to call somebody who lives in Switzerland.

If anybody is jabbing here... its you, throwing out insults calling me an idiot and the like. Why don't you step up your maturity a notch?

 

[Tr0n]

He's american (even tho he's a damn yankee )...Hell I bash our own country from time to time.So what am I?A non-american?

He's american by birth and american now rather you like it or not.

 

[Raziaar]

He's american (even tho he's a damn yankee )...Hell I bash our own country from time to time.So what am I?A non-american?

He's american by birth and american now rather you like it or not.

All I was saying is that he never struck me as an american. He's given me no reason to think otherwise except the occasional 'we' in regards to america. I've always just assumed he was one of those people who tries to feign being a member of another country to butt into the politics.

I have no problem if he's an american living abroad. I wouldn't mind doing the same.

Again. He's never struck me as american... just a guy from switzerland. I never said I wouldn't consider him american.

 

[The Monkey]

Really gotta take Raziaar's side here. If your location states "Switzerland", then it's natural to assume you are Swiss. And judging from his post, he said nothing offensive at all.

 

[Sulkdodds]

But Abisnthe is right (wherever the hell he lives). There was massive sympathy for 9/11. If anyone blamed anyone, people blamed the government, and the way the government had always operated, for getting the innocent American people killed. But living in Britain, I can tell you there was plenty of ****ing sympathy from everyone here.

they are equal in their severity.

Not really. 9/11 was far, far worse. ;(

 

[Raziaar]

Not really. 9/11 was far, far worse. ;(

The death of one should not be any less tragic than the death of thousands. Yes, in a way the death of thousands is worse, but because it was the death of thousands of individuals. I do not view these things statistically.