Stupid in America

[Teta_Bonita]

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml
I just watched a report on this on 20/20, very interesting.

For "Stupid in America," a special report ABC will air Friday, we gave identical tests to high school students in New Jersey and in Belgium. The Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks....

...This should come as no surprise once you remember that public education in the USA is a government monopoly. Don't like your public school? Tough. The school is terrible? Tough. Your taxes fund that school regardless of whether it's good or bad. That's why government monopolies routinely fail their customers. Union-dominated monopolies are even worse

I've always known that european schools are better than American schools, but the fact that our schools are a monopoly never occured to me. Apearantly, in most of Europe student school funding is tied to the student, meaning that if a student leaves a school for whatever reason, the money goes with them. This is supposed to encourge competition between different schools.

Now get this:

...In New York City, it's "just about impossible" to fire a bad teacher, says schools chancellor Joel Klein. The new union contract offers slight relief, but it's still about 200 pages of bureaucracy. "We tolerate mediocrity," said Klein, because "people get paid the same, whether they're outstanding, average, or way below average." One teacher sent sexually oriented emails to "Cutie 101," his sixteen year old student. Klein couldn't fire him for years, "He hasn't taught, but we have had to pay him, because that's what's required under the contract."

They've paid him more than $300,000, and only after 6 years of litigation were they able to fire him. Klein employs dozens of teachers who he's afraid to let near the kids, so he has them sit in what they call "rubber rooms." This year he will spend twenty million dollars to warehouse teachers in five rubber rooms. It's an alternative to firing them. In the last four years, only two teachers out of 80,000 were fired for incompetence.

That is just f*cking sickening. Personally, If I were in charge of this circus organization I would fire every single one of those pedophiles. But that's just me.

Oh well, homeschool ftw!

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Vouchers are a great remedy for this. The money that would go to the child for public education can be used to help fund education at a private school (maximum up to the amount that would've been given at a public school.)

But people freak out about that because parents could send their children to a private school involving religion and people cry that federal funds would be going into a religious organization. Hardly the government endorsing a religion (as it could to ANYTHING) but people will freak out and miss the bigger picture.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Wow what a load of crap...not to mentioned biased.

It completely depends on the school here in America. Some of the schools in my area are full of amazingly bright kids while others are lucky to still receive money. It all depends on the teachers and funding the school gets.

Also in my area teachers get bonuses to pay the more consecutive years with that school and depending on extra training and what not. Not to mention this district is so uptight about teachers that I have seen good teachers go only to be replaced with an even better teacher. I live in Maple Grove/osse MN and the schools are not bad here.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Well, here there are some really shitty, shitty teachers.

And as a young person, I'm not saying that as "Oh I don't like this teacher, so they're lousy."

I mean people who don't/can't teach, don't do their job well, should NOT be in the position they are in. It's worse in Kingman at the South Campus than North, but the problem exists big time.

It feels completely rediculous the difference, too. To go from say, second period feeling like a circus with a teacher who is an immense dumbass that most of the students are probably smarter than, to a well structured class where you're actually being taught something.

 

[dream431ca]

Canada is like the European type system...just about. That should get fixed in the USA. In Canada, if I teacher were to send a note like that to a student, the teacher would fired and charged, and probably would never be allowed to teach again.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Yeah I would love to see more money and effort to make our schools better. We as a nation can't progress if our youth regresses.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Teacher's union is all powerful. In Junior High I worked in the office for my second period for learning experience credit. One teacher moved and the replacement was very shitty. I overheard the principal and district people bitching about the union really stopping anything productive being done about it.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

Yeah I would love to see more money and effort to make our schools better. We as a nation can't progress if our youth regresses.

True, but the article said that the belgium school that whipped that New Jersy school had less funding per student. If you read the article, it says that competition is the main reason the schools in eruope are doing so well, not the funding. So I guess the reason our schools are getting such low scores is that alot of the higher-ups in the board of education (or whatever) are just down right lazy, since they have no incentive to be otherwise.
So more effort is a must, more money is (probably) a waste.

 

[Glirk Dient]

True, but the article said that the belgium school that whipped that New Jersy school had less funding per student. If you read the article, it says that competition is the main reason the schools in eruope are doing so well, not the funding. So I guess the reason our schools are getting such low scores is that alot of the higher-ups in the board of education (or whatever) are just down right lazy, since they have no incentive to be otherwise.
So more effort is a must, more money is (probably) a waste.

Good point...but I wouldn't want private schools to pop up...then the poor would have bad education and rich the best. It would seperate the classes even more. Instead perhaps we could offer benefits or perhaps people lose their job if kids fail a state test with so much percentage. Things to get people on their toes and working hard to be good at teaching. I know most teachers here do their best because they simply love kids and teching. Pay is shit for them but they love to teach so they stick with it.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Good point...but I wouldn't want private schools to pop up...then the poor would have bad education and rich the best. It would seperate the classes even more. Instead perhaps we could offer benefits or perhaps people lose their job if kids fail a state test with so much percentage. Things to get people on their toes and working hard to be good at teaching. I know most teachers here do their best because they simply love kids and teching. Pay is shit for them but they love to teach so they stick with it.

Not with vouchers. Friedman addresses that point specifically.

"Proponents such as Milton Friedman respond that the poor have an incentive to support school choice, as their children attend substandard schools, and would thus benefit most from alternative schools. Consequently, minorities, especially blacks, would benefit and contribute to the diversity of private schooling. The rich on the other hand, already attend schools of remarkable quality in affluent suburbs and would have no incentive to switch schools. In short, the more decrepit the school one attends, the more incentive he has to switch schools and thus benefit from school vouchers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_vouchers

 

[Zeus]

well I go to a public school and Im not in honors but Im not as dumb as some of these kids on this show. they didnt even know what the bill of rights was for and a whole bunch else...no one that I know is that dumb.

 

[Ikerous]

I watched it last night, and he definitely makes it hard to argue with him.
Crazy libertarians

When I was in high school, people could graduate with 2 years of math (Neither of which had to even be equal to or above algebra 1! So basically a 7th grade math education) but we couldn't graduate with less than 2.5 years of pe...

 

[Flyingdebris]

Personally i think its the MTV/Jackass/Gangsta culture of promoting stupidity. Maybe I'm becoming an old man ahead of my time, but I look at people my age or younger and I see the majority wrapped up in the most ephemeral of fads trying to outcool one another above all things. I knew of a girl who did not know "Whether Florida was in central or South America" and she was in college, and in Florida.

Good teachers do not make good students, good teachers provide the means for a good students to learn and excell. If the students are idiots and are unwilling to learn then the best teachers in the world are going to be able to do jack squat. It comes down to how much energy and time the individual is willing to put forth to better him or herself.

 

[Zeus]

Personally i think its the MTV/Jackass/Gangsta culture of promoting stupidity.

yea actually thats true now that I think about it..in my school everyones like "omfg u fag" when they see my average is a 92/100 because they failed half their classes or barely passed them.

 

[Beerdude26]

Anyways, we all conclude that Belgium = teh pwnage.
I believe this picture is in order:
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4286/180px17194519ftn5od.jpg

 

[CptStern]

Vouchers are a great remedy for this. The money that would go to the child for public education can be used to help fund education at a private school (maximum up to the amount that would've been given at a public school.)

But people freak out about that because parents could send their children to a private school involving religion and people cry that federal funds would be going into a religious organization. Hardly the government endorsing a religion (as it could to ANYTHING) but people will freak out and miss the bigger picture.

the reason most kids dont go to private schools is because the tuition is beyond the means of most middle class families (forget it if you're making just a living wage)..a private school near me charges $780 a month ..and that's just half day at day care ..my old highschool is $15,000/yr. (it wasnt private when I went there) The school I worked at (special needs school) if parents had to pay out of their pocket the price would be $7000/month


it's nice that you guys can postulate why our taxes dollars are going to waste etc but until it comes out of YOUR paycheck you wont understand. plus goverment run education standardizes the ciricullum so that everybody has a fair chance no matter if you're in the inner city or white suburbia. Oh and if anything is to blame for poor education is the lack of funds ...the US spends far more on arms then they do on education, that in itself should tell you something


"2003: The total budget request for discretionary spending was $767 billion, of which 51.6% was the military budget — $396 billion.
The next two largest items were education and health, getting $52bn and $49bn dollars, (6.8% and 6.4% of discretionary budget) respectively."

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

the reason most kids dont go to private schools is because the tuition is beyond the means of most middle class families (forget it if you're making just a living wage)..a private school near me charges $780 a month ..and that's just half day at day care ..my old highschool is $15,000/yr. (it wasnt private when I went there) The school I worked at (special needs school) if parents had to pay out of their pocket the price would be $7000/month


it's nice that you guys can postulate why our taxes dollars are going to waste etc but until it comes out of YOUR paycheck you wont understand. plus goverment run education standardizes the ciricullum so that everybody has a fair chance no matter if you're in the inner city or white suburbia. Oh and if anything is to blame for poor education is the lack of funds ...the US spends far more on arms then they do on education, that in itself should tell you something


"2003: The total budget request for discretionary spending was $767 billion, of which 51.6% was the military budget — $396 billion.
The next two largest items were education and health, getting $52bn and $49bn dollars, (6.8% and 6.4% of discretionary budget) respectively."

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

Hence the call for vouchers. It's already known why they can't attend as is, this would remedy that problem and create school competition.

Many European countries already do this, and they have great school systems.

The Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Poland and a few other countries have it. We should too.

 

[CptStern]

no, in spain education is free for all, anyone and everyone can go to university on the government's tab


vouchers are not the solution, money isnt there, that's the problem

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

no, in spain education is free for all, anyone and everyone can go to university on the government's tab


vouchers are not the solution, money isnt there, that's the problem

This isn't for university, this is for elementary/high school, to switch to a private school.

Education at that level is free for all here, too.

We need to emulate how they take care of those with voucher systems, where you can have your voucher pay for an education at a private school.

 

[CptStern]

university isnt free in the US as it isnt in canada

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

university isnt free in the US as it isnt in canada

I know, we haven't been talking about university, we're talking about elementary/high school. The voucher program is proposed for them.