The attempt of a mod without Steam

[archcommus]

You guys read this?

http://www.chatbear.com/board.plm?a=viewthread&t=509,1103324016,22384&b=4986&id=756546&v=flatold&s=0

Interesting, of course, but if Valve lets this go, I don't like the fact that this can happen. Seems to undermine the whole point of Steam, and lately, with Valve's patches and all, I've been liking Steam more and more.

 

[Orion.Instrument]

What's wrong with that?

He proves a valid point, why would they include filesystem.h if they didn't intend for that to happen?

 

[The Dark Elf]

You guys read this?

http://www.chatbear.com/board.plm?a=viewthread&t=509,1103324016,22384&b=4986&id=756546&v=flatold&s=0

Interesting, of course, but if Valve lets this go, I don't like the fact that this can happen. Seems to undermine the whole point of Steam, and lately, with Valve's patches and all, I've been liking Steam more and more.

Legal or not, its bound to cause problems with updating n such. Start fiddling with the filesystem like that, if Valve update something it could render any mod doing that useless.

I like Steam now too, well apart from the memory leak, what that mod team is doing is basically hacking HL2 so you don't need Steam, didn't a few thousand accounts get banned for trying that lol

 

[archcommus]

I also thought at first, why would they include that file if they didn't intend for this to happen. BUT, then I thought, I could definitely imagine Valve claiming that that was not the intended purpose of that file, or they didn't really want it there in the first place. People do make mistakes.

I could also imagine similar problems when Valve updates stuff, especially core engine components.

I see no problem with Steam. If you read on in the thread, the guy continues to say that he hates having to load Steam to load Hammer, or to load Steam to convert a texture. Umm, why? Since Valve's patches and updates Steam now only takes a few seconds to open up. What's the big deal?

I can in no way imagine Valve saying they like this idea or are okay with it. They WANT full control over what everyone's downloading and playing, and that's understandable. This mod would take away that control from them.

 

[hasan]

hmm .. cheesy

Well, I am n00b, but I really don't udnerstand how can having access to the definition of a pure virtual base class allow you to rewrite the file system!

They also reversed engineer[ed] the hl2.exe

hmm, you do realise that the exe just initiates the filesystem and loads the launcher.dll right?

http://www.steampowered.com/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement

E. Restrictions.

Except as otherwise permitted under Section 2(C) with regard to the SDK, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Steam Software or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

I'm not sure what is meant by "proprietary notices or labels", but they didn't just remove "proprietary notices or labels", they removed the whole steam software

They are literally removing [a huge chunck of] the anti-piracy features of HL2.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Whatever happens it'll be interesting

 

[Dante]

wow, didn't see it made it over here.

a.k.a. RenEvo

The entire system is not meant to be what you are thinking, its not a way to rid of steam, just to rid of gcf mostly.

GCF is great for a patching system, as you can just throw bytes pretty much anywhere you like, and link them to the specified file. Although, when reading, its much slower, because the application (in this case filesystem_steam) has to piece together those files as well as find those pieces in the files, in a 1 gig gcf, sometimes thats a strain on the system hence the longer loading times etc...

The support of the people who see the other side of the quarter is great, and i wish there was a way that the others would understand we are not reverse engineering anything, and we are not trying to pirate/warez the system, we are simply trying to rewrite the way that it handles the file system.

 

[hasan]

but you literally removed steam from the whole deal.

If you just want to load files faster, why not extract them from the gcf? I'm sure that forcing the game to not look in the gcf first is alot easier than hacking the file system.

 

[archcommus]

I understand that you are just creating a different way to access the information, but the fact is the only thing forcing people to even have Steam and HL2 is your "check" that you devised, and I'm sure it would be easily cracked by those who know how.

 

[Dante]

yes, but perhaps the same could happen to steam by simply creating a "steam instance", or by patching other files as has been done in the past to allow multiple people (what 30k banned so far) to access without the retail version.

there are ways around everything, there is no way to not accept that, to update and try to flush this is how you deal with it.

i don't feel like explaining my checks and balances in public, as that is not even smart, but would be happy to explain them to valve when i hear back from them. i can guarantee you this, hacking steam.dll to allow you to play hl2 without steam running is a lot easier then bypassing our system in order to warez hl2.

besides, last i heard, 300000000 people could sign on under the same login on steam, and as long as they don't play CS:S they can play hl2 all they want.

 

[DreamWraith]

im sorry, but its a bit rediculous to claim that it would make it any easier to create a pirated copy of hl2.

first of all, the internet is alerady flooded with hacked versions, what need would there be? secondly, from everything i can tell, it must be pretty darn easy to make a hacked version WITH steam, as they are EVERYWHERE.

in any case, iw would be alot harder to turn something into a pirated copy, when its designed not even to be able to run anything other than what is coded into it.

it would literally be a waste of time trying to hack the d6.exe, and everything else with it, because in the long run, it would take LONGER to complete, then simply hacking hl2 itself.

and considering you have to have a copy of steam with a valid hl2 installed, to even install d6 when its released, then how exactly could people who dont have hl2, create a hacked copy of hl2 with it?

 

[archcommus]

Dante, if what Zipster said is right, and if the engine accesses Steam stuff all the time anyway, then of course your mod would pose no greater security risk to Valve.

But if it relies on the checks you've developed, yes, they could be hacked, but yes, as you said, Steam can be hacked, too. But if it could possibly lead to ANOTHER way for people to pirate the game, do you think Valve would like it? They wouldn't, even though tons of pirated versions already exist out there anyway.

So really it just comes down how tight your/Valve's Steam validation is throughout the whole game-playing process.

And then my question: If this is allowed because it poses no greater security risk and Steam will still need to be installed, then why were we forced to use the Steam interface in the first place, instead of just opening things normally, but having Steam in the background to validate stuff?

 

[azz0r]

Cant you just put the files in a directory system, you dont *have* to use the GFC.

 

[archcommus]

Yes, that's another thing I'm still wondering, why Steam is so bad to use for his team in the first place.

 

[azz0r]

He claims its the GFC, as far as I can tell you just put models in the model folder like good old hl1.

The GFC just contain main files used by the game, well if its a mod hopefully they wont need to use any files from the GFC, and if they do cant they just extract them and again put them in a plain folder.

To me it sounds like a request to allow a public release for something that allows people to get rid of Steam.

 

[archcommus]

No, no, it's not that, it's simply a way to access information without Steam, but still WITH Steam's validation and approval.

Yes, he could just put everything in plain folders, but when he's going to be using thousands of files, that's not exactly something he wants to do. He wants a way to consolidate them, and since he can't create .gcfs, he has to devise his own way.

 

[archcommus]

Well, looks like the plan went belly-up.

Dante, care to give your opinions on this matter here? I'm interested in how Valve explained this to you personally (if they did at all).

 

[DreamWraith]

ill give my opinion. it aint over till its over.

 

[stefanhendriks]

this discussion makes me wonder what a 'mod user' would care about? Would a mod user care about this filesystem? Ie, the user knows loading HL2 takes time, due steam or whatnot. The user does not care about your new filesystem or whatever, it just cares about the fact it can play the darn game.

When your mod could cause a ban, id on;'t think your mod will be popular in the way you intent to. The plans are ambigious, but i don't see a real benefit, besides faster load times, or a bit more control about the files and such.

 

[archcommus]

Control for him, load times for the user.

But oh well, the SSA is god.

 

[azz0r]

GFC scape, sure it lets you create em.

 

[archcommus]

Uh, no, don't think so. Only Valve can make .gcfs currently.

 

[Dante]

after a couple of REALLLY long emails to Chris Bokitch, he told me the following:

However, that's an excellent suggestion, of providing tools for mod teams to create their own GCFs. I will pass that on to the SDK team right now.

So if anything good came out of this, that did. Although i don't like the gcf file system, Valve has the final word, and i don't really have $300k or so laying around to license the engine (anyone care to invest )

anyways, So Dead6 goes on as a standard mod, just have to cut some features that where not announced.

 

[^Ben]

Well that would be quite nice, A GCF packer Honestly I always thought makepak in the bin directory was some kind of GCF maker

 

[.pix]

i personally believe that Valve has ruined the modding community. they have completely removed the definition from modding - to modify what already exists. instead they expect us to deal with a poor sdk that gives us a barebones system, which we can't mod (because there is nothing to mod), we have to create stuff from nothing and then write new code INSTEAD OF ALTERTING WHAT IS ALREADY THERE.

way to go Valve =S

for me, i'm going to just decrypte the hl2dm gcf and mod that.

 

[azz0r]

Theres nothing to mod? WTF are you saying that the Strider mod and jbmod inparticular arent achievements.

I think your just talking crap.

 

[archcommus]

There's nothing to mod LOL.

How about, umm...the game.

Sorry you got denied, Dante, but yes, that is one good thing that came out of this whole mess. Soon we'll have the ability to make our .gcfs, and that'll be great for giant mods like yours.

 

[^Ben]

Your funny .pix

And a barebones SDK is usually much better for a multiplayer game, but if you don't want that, they are going to release the HL2DM code in the new year.

You can still MOD anything you want in the game.

 

[stefanhendriks]

agreed.

A barebones sdk is much easier to work with, no more stripping code and such. Btw, you can still change HL2, but you will create ur own mod out of it... Its even in the SDK tools set , create a new mod, or change one.