The Problem with Atheism

[Solaris]

The Problem with Atheism by Sam Harris

Given the absence of evidence for God, and the stupidity and suffering that still thrives under the mantle of religion, declaring oneself an "atheist" would seem the only appropriate response. And it is the stance that many of us have proudly and publicly adopted. Tonight, I'd like to try to make the case, that our use of this label is a mistake?and a mistake of some consequence.

My concern with the use of the term "atheism" is both philosophical and strategic. I'm speaking from a somewhat unusual and perhaps paradoxical position because, while I am now one of the public voices of atheism, I never thought of myself as an atheist before being inducted to speak as one. I didn't even use the term in The End of Faith, which remains my most substantial criticism of religion. And, as I argued briefly in Letter to a Christian Nation, I think that "atheist" is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people "non-astrologers." All we need are words like "reason" and "evidence" and "common sense" and "bullshit" to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.

Read the whole thing, Harris, once again, has got it 100%right.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

<3 Harris very much. I haven't read it all yet, but what I've read is good.

So too with the "greatest crimes of the 20th century" argument. How many times are we going to have to counter the charge that Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot represent the endgame of atheism? I've got news for you, this meme is not going away. I argued against it in The End of Faith, and it was immediately thrown back at me in reviews of the book as though I had never mentioned it. So I tackled it again in the afterword to the paperback edition of The End of Faith; but this had no effect whatsoever; so at the risk of boring everyone, I brought it up again in Letter to a Christian Nation; and Richard did the same in The God Delusion; and Christopher took a mighty swing at it in God is Not Great. I can assure you that this bogus argument will be with us for as long as people label themselves "atheists." And it really convinces religious people. It convinces moderates and liberals. It even convinces the occasional atheist.

I always get pissed off when people say hitler was an athiest.

 

[PvtRyan]

As always, Harris is very much right. People shouldn't be concerned with fitting themselves into categories, like "atheism" or "American", just with what is right. Or better put:

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."
- J. Krishnamurti, "Freedom from the Known"

I always get pissed off when people say hitler was an athiest.

Harris has the best argument against the "but Stalin was an atheist!"-type arguments, and which automatically turns it around as an argument against religion:

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I always get pissed off when people say hitler was an athiest.

No one is sure what Hitler's beliefs were, he wasn't a Christian but he was possibly an occultist. Stalin was definitely an atheist, but that doesn't mean anything, as he never killed anyone in the name of atheism or because he was an atheist.

 

[PvtRyan]

No one is sure what Hitler's beliefs were, he wasn't a Christian but he was possibly an occultist. Stalin was definitely an atheist, but that doesn't mean anything, as he never killed anyone in the name of atheism or because he was an atheist.

Actually, he has killed people because he was violently oppose to religion. But what atheists like Harris are promoting is not atheism but reason and atheism is just a natural consequence of being rational. And Stalin sure wasn't rational, but more alike an extremist religious person. Read the Sam Harris quote in my previous post.

 

[Solaris]

Atheists having to answer for what Stalin did is like the pope having to answer for what Pol-pot did becuase they are both non-astrologers.

 

[Ravioli]

Actually, he has killed people because he was violently oppose to religion. But what atheists like Harris are promoting is not atheism but reason and atheism is just a natural consequence of being rational. And Stalin sure wasn't rational, but more alike an extremist religious person. Read the Sam Harris quote in my previous post.

Actually he permited religion in several areas of the soviet union, he had tolerance for it.

 

[Mr Stabby]

His opposition to the Russian orthodox church was for political reason not theological ones. The Church was a key part of Tsarist Russia and the old order, that communism needed to eradicate in order to survive. That and he was a paranoid psychopath.

 

[Polaris]

Of course, Sam Harris is one of greatest thinkers of this time.
He is right but I guess that atheist label now can make us more united and also visible to public.
Hitler was indeed Roman Catholic and Stalin was by the way raised in very religious family and he was about to become a the priest of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[kirovman]

No one is sure what Hitler's beliefs were, he wasn't a Christian but he was possibly an occultist. Stalin was definitely an atheist, but that doesn't mean anything, as he never killed anyone in the name of atheism or because he was an atheist.

I think Hitler did court the church to try and win their follower's favour (which worked). He has been known to talk about Jews killing Jesus in several of his rants.

Hitler's religious beliefs were some kind of warped norse-occulist, and he probably believe himself to be some kind of God. Well at least he tried to persuade people of that.

 

[kirovman]

He knocked down the biggest Cathedral in Moscow to build a swimming pool. He was then surprised that the pool froze over for 8 months a year.

edit: eh, did't realise I'd just made a post in this topic/

 

[Mr Stabby]

Hitler was indeed Roman Catholic

He wasn't, Mein kampf is full of attacks on Christianity as being anti-German

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

those are only a handful of quotes by him about how he doesn't like christianity.

 

[Polaris]

Here we go again...

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

* Adolph Hitler to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

 

[MiccyNarc]

Hitler couldn't decide what he was.

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

And I could go on.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

He was deranged, its not surprising he didn't know what he was.

 

[theotherguy]

He was deranged, its not surprising he didn't know what he was.

No, he simply used his religious labels as a political tool. He may have been sadistic, but he was not stupid. Everything Hitler said must be taken with a grain of salt, because everything Hitler said was meant to coerce the people around him to believe in his lies.

 

[Raziaar]

Hitler was a meth fiend. It's what fueled his rants.

 

[Jintor]

He was a psycho, plain and simple.

A very smart psycho, but a psycho nonetheless.

 

[MJ12]

People are people, but sometimes it's easier to put some form of label on it.

I hate when people ask me what religion I am, assuming that I have chosen, and are religious.

I am not religious, nor am I an athiest.

I guess people would call me "agnostic". It helps them understand more, which is fine I guess.


It kinda reminds me of high school when people say things like "that kid is goth, that kid is a jock, that kid is punk, that kid is a prep, that kid is a stoner"

 

[Solaris]

You are an atheist.

 

[mortiz-Redux]

Personally I prefer the term rationalist, that pretty much covers everything, from star-signs to god.

 

[Solaris]

Indeed, and nobody will say they don't believe in rational thinking.

 

[MJ12]

You are an atheist.

Hah, don't tell me what I am. What makes you think I am an athiest?

I don't follow a religion, because it is something false created and dictated by man. So generally, I don't trust religion.

However, I don't deny or confirm the fact of "spirtual" existence, or a "diety", nor do I confirm it.

So people would call me an "agnost".

 

[Absinthe]

(insert factory Absinthe post about the relationship between agnosticism and atheism)

So how about those Dolphins?

 

[Solaris]

Hah, don't tell me what I am. What makes you think I am an athiest?

I don't follow a religion, because it is something false created and dictated by man. So generally, I don't trust religion.

However, I don't deny or confirm the fact of "spirtual" existence, or a "diety", nor do I confirm it.

So people would call me an "agnost".

If you do not believe in a god you are an atheist. I hope the mods will make that a thread title, sticky it and perm ban all those who disagree, it's not worth wasting time debating for the 100th time.

 

[Tagaziel]

He was a psycho, plain and simple.

A very smart psycho, but a psycho nonetheless.

No.

Hitler wasn't a psycho. He was the unfortunate result of an abusive father, an unstable psyche, rejection from an art school, First World War, charisma, susceptible crowds, Ernst Rohm etc.

Attributing him and his crimes to psychosis is a dangerous, if not stupid, oversimplification.

 

[Rapstah]

Why are we arguing that violent atheists ruin the idea of atheism when there have been millions of violent religious extremists?

 

[Solaris]

I don't think we are.

I also think that perhaps religion is always a symptom of something else and is not the root cause of any problem.

 

[Lh'owon]

Here's an opposite opinion from PZ Myers

You say you never thought of yourself as an atheist before. And there, I think, is the major rebuttal to your own thesis. It doesn't matter that you don't call yourself an atheist. Sam, they're going to call you an atheist anyway. Your friends might be willing to accede to your wishes and stop calling you an atheist, but your enemies won't, and the media, which has promoted you as an atheist, probably won't … and if they do, you'll vanish from your influential position rather quickly. You don't get to choose what other people will call you.

I agree with Sam in pointing out the slight absurdity of needing the term "atheist", but I'm inclined to go with Myers in realising its necessity.

 

[MJ12]

If you do not believe in a god you are an atheist. I hope the mods will make that a thread title, sticky it and perm ban all those who disagree, it's not worth wasting time debating for the 100th time.

That's rediculous. I am on the fence, oooo, someone's on the fence, god forbid if someone isn't left or right, oooo!

That's the problem with people these days, everybody gets their panties in a knot when someone isn't left or right.

If I am not a liberal, I must be a conservative, if I am not a republican, I must be a democrat.

Ironically you people sound just like my anal theology teachers, except instead it's for athiesm.

If I don't want to choose a side because I am just a 17 yr old boy who has yet to know, or will ever know, the mysteries of science and this universe, then big-f*cking-deal.

I don't deny or confirm the existance of "god". -That does not make me an athiest, nor does that make me religious, nor does that make me spiritual.
I am none of those things, I am on the fence. And if that makes people cringe, then oh well.

 

[mortiz-Redux]

Most agnostics are closer to Atheist than they are theist, agnosticism isn't directly down the middle. For example I've yet to meet an agnostic who lives their life as if there was a personal god just on the off chance.

 

[PvtRyan]

That's rediculous. I am on the fence, oooo, someone's on the fence, god forbid if someone isn't left or right, oooo!

That's the problem with people these days, everybody gets their panties in a knot when someone isn't left or right.

If I am not a liberal, I must be a conservative, if I am not a republican, I must be a democrat.

Ironically you people sound just like my anal theology teachers, except instead it's for athiesm.

If I don't want to choose a side because I am just a 17 yr old boy who has yet to know, or will ever know, the mysteries of science and this universe, then big-f*cking-deal.

I don't deny or confirm the existance of "god". -That does not make me an athiest, nor does that make me religious, nor does that make me spiritual.
I am none of those things, I am on the fence. And if that makes people cringe, then oh well.

Seriously, are you trying to be dense?

Again, slowly now:
Theist = someone who believes in a personal God

Onymous = bearing a name
Anonymous = not bearing a name, because the 'an' inverts the truth value.

Atheist, where the 'a' stands for 'non' = someone who doesn't believe in a personal God.

Do you believe in a personal God? No? Atheist.

Fuck.

 

[MJ12]

Do you believe in a personal God? No? Atheist.

Fuck.

once again, don't deny or confirm the existance.

Side note- And it doesn't nessisarily have to be personal. There are religions that believe in a non-personal god, that doesn't make them athiests.

 

[Absinthe]

once again, don't deny or confirm the existance.

How do you still not get this? What the hell are you talking about? WHAT IS THERE NOT TO GET?

Seriously, drop your preconceptions about atheism now. Right the fuck now. Don't think about it as a group. Don't think of it as a movement. Don't think of it as a claim. Just stop and look. Look at the word.

LOOK AT THE WORD.

Once you have done this, you should (hopefully) realize it has nothing to do with denial and should be able to understand PvtRyan's post fully. It quite literally just means somebody who is not a theist. Even if you label yourself as a fence-sitter, you are an atheist. Why? Because you're not a theist! It's a god damn binary concept and I feel like putting a nail through my dick every time somebody fucks this up.

 

[Asknoone]

I can't believe this has somehow managed to last a page and a bit.

 

[theotherguy]

That's rediculous. I am on the fence, oooo, someone's on the fence, god forbid if someone isn't left or right, oooo!

That's the problem with people these days, everybody gets their panties in a knot when someone isn't left or right.

If I am not a liberal, I must be a conservative, if I am not a republican, I must be a democrat.

Ironically you people sound just like my anal theology teachers, except instead it's for athiesm.

If I don't want to choose a side because I am just a 17 yr old boy who has yet to know, or will ever know, the mysteries of science and this universe, then big-f*cking-deal.

I don't deny or confirm the existance of "god". -That does not make me an athiest, nor does that make me religious, nor does that make me spiritual.
I am none of those things, I am on the fence. And if that makes people cringe, then oh well.

Once again, it doesn't matter if you are "on the fence"

If you do not hold a belief in a god, you are an atheist.

A rock is an atheist because it holds no belief in a god. So is a baby. So are you.

 

[MJ12]

It quite literally just means somebody who is not a theist. Even if you label yourself as a fence-sitter, you are an atheist. Why? Because you're not a theist! It's a god damn binary concept and I feel like putting a nail through my dick every time somebody fucks this up.

That's like saying-

"Even if you label yourself as a fence-sitter, you are an theist. Why? because you're not an atheist!"

- Don't you see how your reasoning has a blatant contradiction that you refuse to adress?

 

[Stigmata]

That's like saying-

"Even if you label yourself as a fence-sitter, you are an theist. Why? because you're not an atheist!"

- Don't you see how your reasoning has a blatant contradiction that you refuse to adress?

The problem with your comparison is that political bias is very multi-faceted, and there are many combinations of views on subjects that will make you either conservative, liberal, fascist, libertarian, and so on. It's like a 3D graph of possible political standings.

But theism/atheism is more like a two-dimensional graph. There is ONE variable: Belief in a deity. You either do, or you don't, to varying degrees. It is the very definition of a dichotomy. You say "Oh, but I'm sitting on the fence!" But really, by sitting on the fence you've already become an atheist. Or use the term agnostic if you want, but agnosticism falls into the category of "atheist" anyway. It's like arguing over whether to call a car "a car" or "a Toyota". It doesn't matter what company made the car, it's still a car. There's no contradiction anywhere. And it doesn't matter what label you want to have, because you're an atheist by definition.

 

[MJ12]

The problem with your comparison is that political bias is very multi-faceted, and there are many combinations of views on subjects that will make you either conservative, liberal, fascist, libertarian, and so on. It's like a 3D graph of possible political standings.

But theism/atheism is more like a two-dimensional graph. There is ONE variable: Belief in a deity. You either do, or you don't, to varying degrees. It is the very definition of a dichotomy. You say "Oh, but I'm sitting on the fence!" But really, by sitting on the fence you've already become an atheist. Or use the term agnostic if you want, but agnosticism falls into the category of "atheist" anyway. It's like arguing over whether to call a car "a car" or "a Toyota". It doesn't matter what company made the car, it's still a car. There's no contradiction anywhere. And it doesn't matter what label you want to have, because you're an atheist by definition.

thats still untrue, because then someone could say that by sitting on the fence I am a theist.

 

[Stigmata]

thats still untrue, because then someone could say that by sitting on the fence I am a theist.

No, they can't.

To be a theist, you have to hold an absolute belief in the existence of a God.

To be an atheist, you simply have to lack that absolute belief.

You said yourself that you don't know if there's a god. If you don't know, then you don't hold an absolute belief. Thus you fall under the category of atheist.