the seldom seen side of War

CptStern said:
Marines praying to god while under fire video:

http://videosift.com/story.php?id=1254

ya gotta feel for these guys. All those of you who say the iraq war was justified put yourselves in their shoes

disclaimer: not violent but the fear in their voices is disturbing



this guy sent them there:

http://videosift.com/story.php?id=1285
Click to expand...


Yes, I feel for this guy but I don't understand the point you're trying to make... clarify the point of this topic.
 
hmmm looks like I struck a nerve

..the point is pretty obvious:

the seldom seen side of war: fear


glirk dient: I have no idea what you're trying to get at with those videos and find it curious that you'd have that sort of reaction
 
Some_God said:
Yes, I feel for this guy but I don't understand the point you're trying to make... clarify the point of this topic.
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I think his point is that you need to stop treating war as some kind of goddamn political idea and start realizing how unbelievably horrible it is.

Glirk Dient said:
These guys are the apparent "Heroes" right stern?

I find these 2 and the above video all scary and feel for the people in there. Absolutely horrible mess.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HOZTgbRaF1Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YLVDLvJyK...ce us army
Click to expand...
Let's show iraqi's killing american soldiers, because obviously that's in the spirit of the thread. Why do you feel the need to combat Stern on this? Just because he's a political opposite of you doesn't mean you have to act like an inhuman shit about what was in that video. And don't try to deny it. The act of posting those two videos, merely in the context and tone of the thread, speaks volumes.
 
Here is a very relevant quote (CptStern should like it):

"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." -George Orwell
 
Another springs to mind...

"Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." - Ernest Hemingway
 
What if I post a link to a video of discarded unborn fetuses, in order prove my point that abortion should be illegalized? Is it meant to evoke a cetrain reaction? Will it ever stop the action? Now... let us find a video of a new school being open or a sewage system restored; something to prevent this being a little too... bais?

Now I agree war is bad, but can you honestly tell me, in all your socialist wisdom, that war can be prevented in human society?
 
Some_God said:
What if I post a link to a video of discarded unborn fetuses, in order prove my point that abortion should be illegalized? Is it meant to evoke a cetrain reaction? Will it ever stop the action? Now... let us find a video of a new school being open or a sewage system restored; something to prevent this being a little too... bais?

Now I agree war is bad, but can you honestly tell me, in all your socialist wisdom, that war can be prevented in human society?
Click to expand...
Not socialist. I'm actually worse than that. Very much straight libertarian, in the capacity that I consider anarchism the ideal form of organization (or the lack thereof) but recognize the mostly unrealistic (though there have been successes) sine qua non required for such a system.

I've seen videos of discarded unborn fetuses, and it broke my heart, because little Ennui over here tries as hard as he can to not lose his compassion in any situation. This is comparable, yes - though my opinion on abortion is merely that it should be the women's perogative, as long as 1) the fetus is not conscious but merely a mass of living tissue attatched to the mother and 2) it is not used as a form of birth control.

War can be prevented. I honestly believe that. I just don't think humans will ever let that happen, or not in the foreseeable future. It'll take people to stop lying to themselves by saying war is necessary first, and we can see that this thread's an example of that not happening.
 
Some_God said:
in all your socialist wisdom, that war can be prevented in human society?
Click to expand...


Has anyone in this thread claimed to be a socialist? What does this even matter? Why even say it?
 
Why is is people only concentrates on the American soldiers killing innocent civilians or American soldiers being killed. Why doesn't anyone realize the killing of anyone is bad. No one cares if an infidel aka "freedom fighter" kills a bunch of American soldiers because he is killing for his freedom. I think any killing is wrong. What ever happened to the teachings of Ghandi? If they want freedom why kill? It is just going to cause more troops to stay and patrol the area. A stronger message would be to villanize the U.S. even more, not give them more of a reason to stay.

Why not vilanize those infidels, why is it everyone makes them out to be heroes when all they are doing is killing and making the mess even wose? Sorry, I just needed to rant. I found those videos on the same page stern linked to and felt like throwing them in this thread. Too many people vilanize the U.S. and make the other murderers out to be heroes as if it were OK to kill anyone. Videos of people dying piss me off.
 
Glirk Dient said:
These guys are the apparent "Heroes" right stern?

I find these 2 and the above video all scary and feel for the people in there. Absolutely horrible mess.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HOZTgbRaF1Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YLVDLvJyKyc&search=god bless america juba resistencia resitance us army
Click to expand...
next time, kindly post a warning or description of the videos you link, thanks

great thread stern.. seriously
enough of this hollywood bullshit already... THATS REAL

and @ the Bush clip: ive seen a million just like it
his lack of comprehension and casual dismissal of important questions like that is certainly disconcerning, but its nothing new am i right?
 
How is fear a seldom seen side of war? Fear is seen in every single aspect of human life.
 
I never pay attention to the war on TV. It doesn't help me to find out how many more are getting killed everyday. Seriously, if we knew everything that happened during this war, and I mean everything to everybody, we would have a very hard time living with ourselves right now.

I noticed some quotes early on. A quote I actually live by is a quote spoken by Gandhi and Einstien repeated it:

"Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good."
 
Some_God said:
What if I post a link to a video of discarded unborn fetuses, in order prove my point that abortion should be illegalized?
Click to expand...


absolutely not evenremotely the same situation ..I didnt post images/video of US soldiers blown to bits ..had you posted images/video of women crying/regretting their decision it's on the same level but posting images of aborted fetus is NOTHING like this video

Some_God said:
Is it meant to evoke a cetrain reaction? Will it ever stop the action? Now... let us find a video of a new school being open or a sewage system restored; something to prevent this being a little too... bais?
Click to expand...

so we should post one good story for every thousand bad one? the rebuilding stories are propaganda bullshit ...one school being rebuilt doesnt make up for the thousands of other bad things that happen on a daily basis in iraq. More iraqis die violent deaths in a single month than there are murders in the US in a whole year ..one half-assed story about troops bringing books to poor iraqi children in a remote part of coalition controlled iraq doesnt spin the kharmic wheel back to where it should be ..I dont think anything will



Some_God said:
Now I agree war is bad, but can you honestly tell me, in all your socialist wisdom, that war can be prevented in human society?
Click to expand...

:upstare: more right wing tag lines andpropaganda bullshit ..this war COULD have been prevented if your admin hadnt fixed intelligence to falsly justify the invasion and systematic destruction of a nation ...your self-righteousness is a direct insult to all those that lost their lives in iraq ..if you support this war why havent you gone to the front lines?


B-man said:
and @ the Bush clip: ive seen a million just like it
his lack of comprehension and casual dismissal of important questions like that is certainly disconcerning, but its nothing new am i right?
Click to expand...

yes you're right, however I posted that video because it illlustrates just how clueless bush is when it comes to the sacrifice people are making in iraq ..he couldnt even be bothered to answer that question because he truely doesnt give a shit ..there is no doubt in my mind that bush doesnt have a handle of what he got himself into ..his handlers obviously fill in the gaps for pretty much everything


Glirk Dient said:
Why is is people only concentrates on the American soldiers killing innocent civilians or American soldiers being killed. Why doesn't anyone realize the killing of anyone is bad. No one cares if an infidel aka "freedom fighter" kills a bunch of American soldiers because he is killing for his freedom.
Click to expand...


I fail to see what connection you're trying to draw here ...how does this have anything to do with the video I posted?

Glirk Dient said:
I think any killing is wrong. What ever happened to the teachings of Ghandi?
Click to expand...

:upstare: dont go down that route because you'll just dig yourself into a hole. Why dont you ask your government? they had absolutely no qualms of killing innocent people when it fabricated it's case for invasion

Glirk Dient said:
If they want freedom why kill? It is just going to cause more troops to stay and patrol the area. A stronger message would be to villanize the U.S. even more, not give them more of a reason to stay.
Click to expand...

you must be joking? are you trying to tell me that they should resort to using the media to spread their message? Bush planned to bomb al jazeera prior to the war to silence criticism, coalition forces have murdered journalists, only embedded journalists are allowed anywhere near coalition troops, it is next to impossible for non-embedded journalists to enter anywhere near combat zones, the media back home has had 3 years of shoving propaganda lies about the evils of iraq/insurgents and you expect them to stop? come on that's completely ludicrous. You want the killing to stop? march on washington, hold them accountable for the crimes they've committed in iraq ..better hurry because sooner than later you'll be adding invasion of iran to that list

Glirk Dient said:
Why not vilanize those infidels, why is it everyone makes them out to be heroes when all they are doing is killing and making the mess even wose?
Click to expand...

I defy you to find an instance where one of our anti-war members has supported the insurgency/terrorism

Glirk Dient said:
Sorry, I just needed to rant. I found those videos on the same page stern linked to and felt like throwing them in this thread. Too many people vilanize the U.S. and make the other murderers out to be heroes as if it were OK to kill anyone. Videos of people dying piss me off.
Click to expand...

I certainly do not see them as "heros" ..but I also agree that the US IS the villian here ..they lied, thousands died
 
15357 said:
How is fear a seldom seen side of war? Fear is seen in every single aspect of human life.
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand the fear those soldiers were experiencing. I know I don't. The only way I can imagine it is by taking the most terrifying experiences of my life (which have been pretty bad) and then make it small in comparison.

Glirk Dient said:
Why is is people only concentrates on the American soldiers killing innocent civilians or American soldiers being killed. Why doesn't anyone realize the killing of anyone is bad. No one cares if an infidel aka "freedom fighter" kills a bunch of American soldiers because he is killing for his freedom. I think any killing is wrong. What ever happened to the teachings of Ghandi? If they want freedom why kill? It is just going to cause more troops to stay and patrol the area. A stronger message would be to villanize the U.S. even more, not give them more of a reason to stay.

Why not vilanize those infidels, why is it everyone makes them out to be heroes when all they are doing is killing and making the mess even wose? Sorry, I just needed to rant. I found those videos on the same page stern linked to and felt like throwing them in this thread. Too many people vilanize the U.S. and make the other murderers out to be heroes as if it were OK to kill anyone. Videos of people dying piss me off.
Click to expand...
First, like Stern said, who the HELL, among the anti-war members here, have ever indicated or even come close to implying that they support the insurgency in Iraq? I think they're perhaps justified in doing what they see is defending their country, but I don't condone violence - and especially not murder, and there is no such thing as a killing that is not murder - in any situation whatsoever, and I certainly am absolutely disgusted and sickened that they take hostages and then hack their heads off. They're worse than the American soldiers over there, but they are more justified in their actions because it's their country and ideals they are defending, even if I don't necessarily agree.

I'm kind of confused as to why you're calling them infidels, as I believe that is their term for westerners :p though that's not really relevant. No one makes the murderers on the Iraqi side out to be heroes, and as much as I love my country (which might not be so common among people as extremely leftist as I am, but I have to say I ****ing love america) I don't like that we make our troops out to be heroes. Most of what you said against the insurgents in that post can be thrown back in your face to be said about Americans over there, as little as I like it.
 
some really good points, Ennui ..I'd also like to add that I really do like the US (just not foreign policy or neo-conservatism)
 
CptStern said:
some really good points, Ennui ..I'd also like to add that I really do like the US (just not foreign policy or neo-conservatism)
Click to expand...

Why would anyone hate a country? Governments were created so we could vent are hatred on them and not the people.
 
DEATH eVADER said:
Why would anyone hate a country? Governments were created so we could vent are hatred on them and not the people.
Click to expand...
It's possible there may have been other reasons they were created too :D
 
wikipedia said:
Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation directly aimed at influencing the opinions of people, rather than impartially providing information.
Click to expand...

Stern, don't talk about propoganda. Every single topic you ever made on Iraq can be defined as propoganda.
 
Some_God said:
Stern, don't talk about propoganda. Every single topic you ever made on Iraq can be defined as propoganda.
Click to expand...
Stern makes threads with an obvious leftward slant, but his points are perfectly valid, and he's fine talking about propaganda in the media because we do get a ton of it. Also, it's a flexible term.
 
Some_God said:
Stern, don't talk about propoganda. Every single topic you ever made on Iraq can be defined as propoganda.
Click to expand...

excuse me? how is it propaganda when I provide indisputable evidence to back up my claims? oh and I posted far more than just the word "propaganda", maybe you'd like to take a stab at my other points


DEATH eVADER said:
Why would anyone hate a country? Governments were created so we could vent are hatred on them and not the people.
Click to expand...

I agree, however I am consistantly accused of hating americans, which I think is rediculous
 
Ennui said:
It's possible there may have been other reasons they were created too :D
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Scandals? :|

Oh, your talking about the running of countries :smoking:

Tell that to Bush, which used most of his term taking vacations, lazy bastard. Some people can only dream of a job like that
 
DEATH eVADER said:
Scandals? :|

Oh, your talking about the running of countries :smoking:

Tell that to Bush, which used most of his term taking vacations, lazy bastard. Some people can only dream of a job like that
Click to expand...
I take more issue with the fact that he's a president who doesn't think, act, or speak for himself, ever.
 
CptStern said:
the seldom seen side of war: fear
Click to expand...
Interesting that you say that now. After all, it was fear that brought this war to the world anyway--the fear that the US propaganda machine that is the government and the corporations running the media instilled in every citizen, not just in the US but around the globe, in every civilized country!

We (though especially the US) have been living in fear since 9/11 not only because of the grave events of that day but also because of the horrible images that the government and the media have fed into our brains of what might happen if we don't let them do whatever it takes to rid the world of such evil and vicious terrorism, even if that means burying our civil liberties six feet under or fabricating a war under utterly false pretenses to the whole world!

The fear felt by these soldiers is not shared by many of the terrorists because they have been led to believe (by their own indoctrinization methods) that death fighting the infidel will bring them to paradise. Their belief in their cause is not as easily shaken as that of our troops (understandably, given our "cause") and their faith in afterlife rewards is even more ingrained than that of our own troops' religious beliefs! These guys almost want to die--just as the suicide bombers definitely want to--but they are all just pawns in a game much bigger than either side realizes at the time.

Ennui said:
and he's fine talking about propaganda in the media because we do get a ton of it.
Click to expand...
Ha! "Propaganda in the media"--a little redundant don't you think? :D That's all it is and its goal is to make the public feel the way that they (i.e. the government/corporations) want you to.

Two related Chomsky quotes:
“The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control / ''indoctrination',' we might say / exercised through the mass media.”

“I think there is a good reason why the propaganda system works that way. It recognizes that the public will not support the actual policies. Therefore it is important to prevent any knowledge or understanding of them.”
Click to expand...

Ennui said:
I take more issue with the fact that he's a president who doesn't think, act, or speak for himself, ever.
Click to expand...
Not many of them have--they are mouthpieces. Or puppets. Both terms would constitute valid usage. :)
 
Some_God said:
What if I post a link to a video of discarded unborn fetuses, in order prove my point that abortion should be illegalized? Is it meant to evoke a cetrain reaction? Will it ever stop the action? Now... let us find a video of a new school being open or a sewage system restored; something to prevent this being a little too... bais?

Now I agree war is bad, but can you honestly tell me, in all your socialist wisdom, that war can be prevented in human society?
Click to expand...
Yes, yes it can be prevented. War is a tool of the rich.
 
Yes, yes it can be prevented. War is a tool of the rich.
Click to expand...

War's a tool for anyone. If anyone can use the tool, then anything can be fixed or destroyed by it.
 
yes but not just anyone can declare war, can they?
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Well, you can, but I think some of us would sound and look rediculous doing it.
Click to expand...
he didn't ask if anyone can say 'i declare war on you' he asked if just anyone could actually start a war.
 
My statement was meant to humorous Ennui, but evidently, your looking into this forum a little too seriously as if World Starvation will be solved by the off-topic and politics forum participaters.

Yes, anyone could declare war ... have you tried it?
 
yes I can say whatever comes to my mind ...doesnt me the military will listen to me ...only leaders can declare war, and sometimes only with the consent of parliament

edit: kerberos, jesus, you're wrong ..only nation states can declare war
 
yes I can say whatever comes to my mind ...doesnt me the military will listen to me ...only leaders can declare war, and sometimes only with the consent of parliament

edit: kerberos, jesus, you're wrong ..only nation states can declare war
Click to expand...

Only nation states can declare war? Stern, just say this to yourself for a moment.

"I declare war on cheese".
 
that's completely rediculous

stop wasting time/spamming
 
that's completely rediculous
Click to expand...

Not it's not Stern. :D

But I go back to my statement. Wars can be declared by anyone. Al-Aqsa Matyr Brigades were'nt a Nation State, yet they were able to declare war on Israel during the first Infitada.

Whats so qualitive about that?
 
they formally declared war? look kerberos, despite what you might think a declaration of war is NOT made by individuals ..tell me did the geneva conventions apply to the Martyr brigade? why not? answer the question and leave all other nonsense at the door

"A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation, and one or more others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war
 
they formally declared war? look kerberos, despite what you might think a declaration of war is NOT made by individuals
Click to expand...

But if I can declare war, and so can they, then that negates the idea only Nation States could do it. :D
 
YOU CANNOT DECLARE WAR!! you're worse than a child who says nahnahnah to drown people out

"A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation, and one or more others."
 
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