Tony Blair Defeated over Anti-Terror Legislation

[Solaris]

Just watched it live 2mins ago they announced it has failed!!

MPs rejected the proposals by 322 votes to 291. They are now voting on whether to accept a compromise detention limit.

The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and some Labour backbenchers said the 90-day plans went too far.
Civil liberties groups compared the proposal to internment - a charge rejected by ministers.
In his final plea for MPs to back the plans, Mr Blair urged MPs to take the advice of the police who had foiled two terrorist plots since the 7 July attacks in London.

In heated exchanges at prime minister's questions, Mr Blair said: "We are not living in a police state but we are living in a country that faces a real and serious threat of terrorism."
Ministers tried to reassure waverers by promising that the new laws would expire unless MPs renewed them in a year's time.
Conservative leader Michael Howard warned that the detention plans could alienate ethnic minority communities.

Source

1111

 

[Mr Stabby]

the 28 day amendment passed, they vote on the 60 day bill soon

 

[Solaris]

Yup, so its not bad, 28 days is still bad, but not terrible.

90 days is three months which is appalling.

 

[dream431ca]

Can someone give me some insight...I don't usually follow European politics (Canadian politics are extremely heated right now)...what does this mean for you guys who live in the UK?

 

[Solaris]

Basically the government wanted to give the Police the power to detain terrorist suspects for 90 days without charge.

This means they could arrest anyone with out the need for evidence and detain them for 90 days.

 

[mortiz]

Mr Blair losing for the first time is hugely significant and could cut down the amount of time he remains as leader quite significantly. I doubt he'll quit yet, but the chances of him even making half a term look unlikely now.

 

[gick]

Thank **** for that. With the new laws on 'incitement to religious hatred' and this detention business I was beginning to think I was living in a police state.

 

[Llama]

Begin rant *\

WTF, How is this good news? If someone is a suspected terrorist, then they should be treated as such, a low life worthless scumbag.
Why is this country so ****ing over the top when it comes to equal rights? It's the opposite of racism, its protecting our country againgst these wankers. I mean come on, if someone is suscepted of terrorist acts (IE Killing people that dont deserve it in the name of their religion / beleif) then why should you treat them with respect? They dont deserve respect, its about time this country pulls it's head out its arse and starts thinking like its a bloody country. :flame::flame::flame::flame:
*/end rant

:x
Wow, that was X-treme to the maxl
​

 

[Mr Stabby]

what if they were too SUSPECT you of terrorism

 

[The Monkey]

Begin rant *\

WTF, How is this good news? If someone is a suspected terrorist, then they should be treated as such, a low life worthless scumbag.
Why is this country so ****ing over the top when it comes to equal rights? It's the opposite of racism, its protecting our country againgst these wankers. I mean come on, if someone is suscepted of terrorist acts (IE Killing people that dont deserve it in the name of their religion / beleif) then why should you treat them with respect? They dont deserve respect, its about time this country pulls it's head out its arse and starts thinking like its a bloody country. :flame::flame::flame::flame:
*/end rant

:x
Wow, that was X-treme to the maxl
​

That's the difference, they're suspected terrorists, helf without charge. That could be anyone that was at the wrong plce at the wrong time, even you.

 

[Solaris]

Begin rant *\

WTF, How is this good news? If someone is a suspected terrorist, then they should be treated as such, a low life worthless scumbag.
Why is this country so ****ing over the top when it comes to equal rights? It's the opposite of racism, its protecting our country againgst these wankers. I mean come on, if someone is suscepted of terrorist acts (IE Killing people that dont deserve it in the name of their religion / beleif) then why should you treat them with respect? They dont deserve respect, its about time this country pulls it's head out its arse and starts thinking like its a bloody country. :flame::flame::flame::flame:
*/end rant

:x
Wow, that was X-treme to the maxl
​

It gives the Police the power to do this.

Pick you up pt you in a van, detain you for 90 days, thats 3 months, say you miss your Degreee examinations or something, and then they release you without charge, all within the law. Not one person has been held up to the current limit, so theres little point in doubling it.

Maintaining our civil rights protects us from state tyranny.

They could intimidate anti war protestors by doing this, on anyone for that matter.

 

[ComradeBadger]

It's important that this failed. Suspicion is not enough to detain someone without charge for 90 days.

 

[jondy]

Yeah, saw this on BBC. Thank **** for that

 

[Bob_Marley]

No surprises though, if Blair hadnt been a wally and pushed for a full 90 days he may have gotten more than 60. But he didnt so he will have to be contnet with 28 (for the time being, I'm shure teflon Tony will find a way around).

But, thanks to MPs doing this one right we can all breath easy for a while

 

[Kangy]

I literally cheered. I'm still leaving as soon as I can (possibly 10 months), but damn, hopefully this kind of defeat can stall compulsory ID etc. until I get nationality elsewhere.

 

[Evo]

Really good to see that (just about) the majority of MP's voted against this. It can lead to severe abuse of the system arresting people, like Solaris said, anti-war protestors for no reason. There is no point in holding a suspected terrorist for this long because, as i see it they will have the case thrown out half the time. This may lead to a Muslim who was not actively involved in terrorism, but was aware of it's meanings, turning towards terrorism.

As one of the Conservative back benchers said:

"Police State"

Which is what we seem to be being led to recently.

*Evo quickly flees politics forum for fear of flaming rumours*

psst: 1,999 posts Kangy!

 

[Jandor]

The Sun ran a campaign to get this passed. I hate the Sun.

3 months is long enough to ruin lives, and for what? Because someone was looking a little bit muslim and a little bit worried at the wrong time in the wrong place?

 

[el Chi]

I find it interesting that this was never contemplated during the troubles with N. Ireland, when terrorism was far more prevalent than it is now.

hopefully this kind of defeat can stall compulsory ID

I don't reckon that'll get trhough for a wfair old while. There's a lot of grumbling within the Labour party, the LibDems disagree with it in general (as far as I'm aware) and the Tories will disagree with it by virtue of it being a Labour proposal.

 

[Reaktor4]

It wasnt gonna be quite as bad as people make out. They werent gonna just lock someone away for 3 months, it was up to 3 months and they had to get weekly extensions by a judge. I think.

 

[ComradeBadger]

The Sun ran a campaign to get this passed. I hate the Sun.

3 months is long enough to ruin lives, and for what? Because someone was looking a little bit muslim and a little bit worried at the wrong time in the wrong place?

Heh they called the MPs who voted against it 'Traitors'

Ahahaha

Fools.

 

[Solaris]

I find it interesting that this was never contemplated during the troubles with N. Ireland, when terrorism was far more prevalent than it is now.

I don't reckon that'll get trhough for a wfair old while. There's a lot of grumbling within the Labour party, the LibDems disagree with it in general (as far as I'm aware) and the Tories will disagree with it by virtue of it being a Labour proposal.

They had worse, internment, effectivelyy imprisonment without trial often tortured. They randomally picked people from 'Free Derry' (This was an area of derry that no Soldeirs had entered for a year, and was effectively free) theyd detain them with no evidence, torture then release.

B******ds.

 

[gick]

They had worse, internment, effectivelyy imprisonment without trial often tortured. They randomally picked people from 'Free Derry' (This was an area of derry that no Soldeirs had entered for a year, and was effectively free) theyd detain them with no evidence, torture then release.

B******ds.

Yaha. That actually had the effect of increasing IRA recruitment. Similar thing would have happened with Al Qaeda had this bill gone through.

 

[Solaris]

Yaha. That actually had the effect of increasing IRA recruitment. Similar thing would have happened with Al Qaeda had this bill gone through.

It did, Ive been reading a book called 'Brits' its part of a trilorgy the other two being provos(about the IRA) and loyalists. Its 3 perspectives and fantastic material for my IRA mod. Im actually thinking of basing a level in 'Free Derry' and 'Free Belfast'.

 

[craig]

I was listening to Radio 1 on the day of the vote and they did a poll. Ironically about 80% of the country was with Tony (including myself), but he still lost the vote.

It's a tricky one really. I mean keeping someone for 90 days with absolutley no proof of anything does seem a bit harsh, but at the same time it's not like they can keep someone in custody for 90 days if they suspect them of being a shoplifter... we are talking about suspected terrorists here. If it stops another attack like the one that happened on July 7th then I'm all for it though.

 

[Solaris]

I was listening to Radio 1 on the day of the vote and they did a poll. Ironically about 80% of the country was with Tony (including myself), but he still lost the vote.

It's a tricky one really. I mean keeping someone for 90 days with absolutley no proof of anything does seem a bit harsh, but at the same time it's not like they can keep someone in custody for 90 days if they suspect them of being a shoplifter... we are talking about suspected terrorists here. If it stops another attack like the one that happened on July 7th then I'm all for it though.

A suspected terrorist could be anyone especially with justifying terrorism now being a terorist act.

 

[Sulkdodds]

WTF, How is this good news? If someone is a suspected terrorist, then they should be treated as such, a low life worthless scumbag.
Why is this country so ****ing over the top when it comes to equal rights? It's the opposite of racism, its protecting our country againgst these wankers. I mean come on, if someone is suscepted of terrorist acts (IE Killing people that dont deserve it in the name of their religion / beleif) then why should you treat them with respect? They dont deserve respect, its about time this country pulls it's head out its arse and starts thinking like its a bloody country.

if you thnk holding ppl 4 90 days w/o charrge will help terrism fight, your wronge.[/gegam]

But consider this: if you suspect someone of terrorism, and you have good reason to, you can charge them. But what this is - 90 days without charge - is just bullshit. Without charge. That means they don't really need to have any evidence at all - they can literally arrest you for pretty much nothing and hold you for three months without ever telling you what you're accused of.

The point of telling people what you're holding them for and not holding them for too long (what is it, two days without charge, max?) is so that the system can't be abused by simply arresting people you don't like. In theory of course, people would only be arrested under this legislation when there's been a terrorist attack or suspicion of one - but I think the danger of the powers being abused is way too high. Look at Guantanamo Bay for a start - a man from here, Brighton, has been in there for over a year now - and for what? He hasn't been charged of anything and they don't, from what I can gather, have any evidence against him. When police forces don't have to fully justify their reasons for arrests with strong evidence, things can and will get out of hand very quickly.

 

[Solaris]

if you thnk holding ppl 4 90 days w/o charrge will help terrism fight, your wronge.[/gegam]

But consider this: if you suspect someone of terrorism, and you have good reason to, you can charge them. But what this is - 90 days without charge - is just bullshit. Without charge. That means they don't really need to have any evidence at all - they can literally arrest you for pretty much nothing and hold you for three months without ever telling you what you're accused of. Not only does that violate human rights but there's no real reason for it apart from to provide an excuse to arrest anyone at any time for any reason at all.

And the people who voted against this, were called 'traitours' by no other paper of filth than 'The Scum'.