Torrenting the Witcher 2 may net you a fine for being a pirate arrrrr

[CptStern]

Independent developers are having a tough time when it comes to dealing with piracy and DRM. If you include DRM, people complain. If you don't, people pirate your game. It happened to World of Goo and it happened to Machinarium. But CD Projekt, the developer behind the upcoming The Witcher 2, has an idea about how to fight back: legal action.

The sequel to The Witcher won't feature any form of DRM, but CD Projekt plans to go after those people who do decide to pirate the game, with threats of both fines and legal action.

"Of course we're not happy when people are pirating our games, so we are signing with legal firms and torrent sneaking companies," CD Projekt co-founder Marcin Iwi?ski told Eurogamer. "In quite a few big countries, when people are downloading it illegally they can expect a letter from a legal firm saying, 'Hey, you downloaded it illegally and right now you have to pay a fine.' We are totally fair, but if you decide you will not buy it legally there is a chance you'll get a letter."

whateveh, it's not like hl2.netters pirate games. right? RIGHT???

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...-threaten-pirates-with-fines-legal-action.ars

 

[<RJMC>]

the witcher is made by a independt studio?

 

[CptStern]

yes they're their own publishers and distributors. they may use 3rd party publishers for north american releases

 

[Dinnesch]

How are they ever gonna pay for scanning the whole internet? With the typical income of an indie game developer.

 

[CptStern]

How are they ever gonna pay for scanning the whole internet? With the typical income of an indie game developer.

"so we are signing with legal firms and torrent sneaking companies"

 

[love_nutz2]

well your IP address is exposed when using a torrent, it is a way of catching you out, although there is away to get around this by not using torrents and using direct download services.

 

[Gargantou]

well your IP address is exposed when using a torrent, it is a way of catching you out, although there is away to get around this by not using torrents and using direct download services.

You can get around it by using VPNs too, I am quite sure.

And then you can continue using torrents etc.

Anyway, it's a shame if they do, as I mentioned in The Witcher 2 thread and as is partially mentioned in the article, there has been dubious on-goings with these piracy-specializing law-firms, at least in the UK, including revelations that they FORGE results to be able to sue people who in reality are perfectly innocent.

 

[CptStern]

no DRM on gog.com is step in the right direction; going after the pirates directly instead of legit users is a giant leap in the right direction. even if it's mostly ineffective; appearances are everything

 

[Lucid]

Uh, this is pretty much the threat that comes with pirating anything.

 

[ríomhaire]

Independent developers are having a tough time when it comes to dealing with piracy and DRM. If you don't include DRM, people pirate your game. If you do, people complain and then pirate your game.

Fixed.

 

[Krynn72]

So the cost of pirating a game has just one up from "no cost at all" to "receiving a letter." PIRACY SOLVED

Theres no way anything will happen to people who receive those letters. The cost of any sort of appeal will cost the studio waaaay more than its worth.

However, its a fantastic way to deter casual piracy, I think. Most people download because they figure its no big deal. But when they receive a letter saying "I KNOW WHAT YOU DID" then most people will probably be too afraid to continue downloading games. It will bring the seriousness of it home for them. Frankly, if every publisher/studio went after pirates with a few sheets of paper, piracy wouldnt be nearly as big I imagine. I mean, frequent pirates would be receiving such letters several times a year. Eventually the paranoia would overwhelm them I imagine.

They should share a list of IPs that download games, and find the big ones that upload tons of data to others and take actual legal action against those people.

All in all though, this is a good idea. I approve.

 

[Gargantou]

So the cost of pirating a game has just one up from "no cost at all" to "receiving a letter." PIRACY SOLVED

Theres no way anything will happen to people who receive those letters. The cost of any sort of appeal will cost the studio waaaay more than its worth.

However, its a fantastic way to deter casual piracy, I think. Most people download because they figure its no big deal. But when they receive a letter saying "I KNOW WHAT YOU DID" then most people will probably be too afraid to continue downloading games. It will bring the seriousness of it home for them. Frankly, if every publisher/studio went after pirates with a few sheets of paper, piracy wouldnt be nearly as big I imagine. I mean, frequent pirates would be receiving such letters several times a year. Eventually the paranoia would overwhelm them I imagine.

They should share a list of IPs that download games, and find the big ones that upload tons of data to others and take actual legal action against those people.

All in all though, this is a good idea. I approve.

You are wrong Krynn, there are tons of cases where these anti-piracy law-firms have been able to extort money from people both in Europe as well as in America.

So there is totally a way that things will happen to the people who receive those letters.

Not to mention the Intellectual Property Rights Enforcement Directive over here in EU has made it a lot easier(and legally insecure) to hunt down people who violate intellectual property laws via for example pirating.

 

[Krynn72]

You are wrong Krynn, there are tons of cases where these anti-piracy law-firms have been able to extort money from people both in Europe as well as in America.

So there is totally a way that things will happen to the people who receive those letters.

Not to mention the Intellectual Property Rights Enforcement Directive over here in EU has made it a lot easier(and legally insecure) to hunt down people who violate intellectual property laws via for example pirating.

Those are all very small scale cases though. They pick out a handful of people to make an example of. This is a much grander scale situation, and I'm positive very few people will see any actual repercussions.

 

[CptStern]

So the cost of pirating a game has just one up from "no cost at all" to "receiving a letter." PIRACY SOLVED

Theres no way anything will happen to people who receive those letters. The cost of any sort of appeal will cost the studio waaaay more than its worth.

not too mention that they have no jurisdictional reach

However, its a fantastic way to deter casual piracy, I think. Most people download because they figure its no big deal. But when they receive a letter saying "I KNOW WHAT YOU DID" then most people will probably be too afraid to continue downloading games. It will bring the seriousness of it home for them. Frankly, if every publisher/studio went after pirates with a few sheets of paper, piracy wouldnt be nearly as big I imagine. I mean, frequent pirates would be receiving such letters several times a year. Eventually the paranoia would overwhelm them I imagine.

this is pretty much my thoughts as well. CDProject is the North Korea of game developers: sabre rattling and not much else

 

[StarBob]

Well it's kind of worked for the music industry. They didn't go after EVERYONE but they went after people to make a point. They even won in their crazy claims for millions of dollars for dozens of songs. Still, it's a fairly easy thing to circumvent and fairly unnecessary considering the amount of effort necessary to track it, let alone police it. The money they'd spend on lawyers and court costs to fight out a single case would probably end up being more than this game even sells. And even if they won a case, they'd never get their money... at least not from America... where everything is appealed a thousand times and structured settlements are made everyday for fractions of original rulings... and then the structured settlements are settled again through brokers and lawyers. So you take a million dollar ruling, it's appealed three times and settled for $50,000 to be payed over 10 years, then brokers end up offeringa smaller lump sum to the receiver or taking a smaller lump sum from the payer so it just turns a $10,000 eventual total transaction.

Anyways yeah, I think it's the consensus that this is a scare tactic, not a guarantee. I didn't even like the first one that much so I dunno why the second one is even relevant. It seems like every game that has big DRM news is a game that's not going to knock any socks off in the end.

 

[Krynn72]

It seems like every game that has big DRM news is a game that's not going to knock any socks off in the end.

Yep. Good publishers know that piracy isn't the main reason their games wont sell. Bad publishers can think of no other reason.

 

[Destructo-Bot]

Good on them. This is how it should be. I HATE disc checks. HATE THEM.

 

[VirusType2]

TorrentFreak adds some perspective

In theory a DRM-free game should give consumers less incentive to download it illegally [because there is no frustrating DRM], but it’s also easier to share. We can’t look inside the minds of CD Projekt’s bosses but it’s not totally inconceivable that they secretly hope that many people will pirate their games. After all, the pay-up-or-else schemes are more profitable than actually selling games.

And CD Projekt co-founder Marcin Iwinski speaks on the infringement letters:

http://torrentfreak.com/is-witcher-2-drm-free-to-lure-in-pirates-101122/

 

[Destructo-Bot]

So is it NOT OK to defend your copyright AT ALL? Sending a pay up or else letter for a reasonable sum to someone who HAS broken your copyright on a DRM free game is not evil. The MINIMUM statutory damage for a violation of a registered copyright is $700 if it goes to court. I doubt very much that the letters are going to be demanding $700.

I feel that anyone complaining about a company releasing a game DRM free like we asked for and then going after pirates for LESS than they are legally entitled to demand is grasping at straws.

This is SANE and beneficial to their actual customers, and good for the developer as well so it is win/win. Pirating is a risky business; either face the potential consequences or don't gamble on not getting caught.

 

[Naph]

Now that they've said this, expect torrenters to check the reliability of their source.
But if a company is so bothered about DRM, release it on steam and wait a while for box distribution.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Steam is DRM. Why do people not understand this.

 

[Krynn72]

So is it NOT OK to defend your copyright AT ALL? Sending a pay up or else letter for a reasonable sum to someone who HAS broken your copyright on a DRM free game is not evil. The MINIMUM statutory damage for a violation of a registered copyright is $700 if it goes to court. I doubt very much that the letters are going to be demanding $700.

One of the comments for the article Virus posted (I think another writer for the site) said the following:

~30% of the alleged infringers who receive a letter pay up. They pay close to $1000 to settle

Of course he doesn't say whether that was for the first Witcher, or even for a game at all. Nor does he provide a source for his information. Considering how error-riddled and stupid the main article was, I'll assume hes not being completely truthful, relevant, or accurate. That said though, the number would seem to make sense. Torrenters also upload data for others, so its not like they're just downloading it for themselves and thats it. They're also distributors. I don't think $700 is a far-fetched guess.

Steam is DRM. Why do people not understand this.

Is it actually using steamworks? I don't see anything saying it requires steam.

 

[VirusType2]

Is it actually using steamworks? I don't see anything saying it requires steam.

No, he was replying to Naph.

 

[stemot]

Do people still use torrents to pirate? Hotfile and the like is where it's at nowadays.

 

[Gargantou]

So is it NOT OK to defend your copyright AT ALL? Sending a pay up or else letter for a reasonable sum to someone who HAS broken your copyright on a DRM free game is not evil. The MINIMUM statutory damage for a violation of a registered copyright is $700 if it goes to court. I doubt very much that the letters are going to be demanding $700.

I feel that anyone complaining about a company releasing a game DRM free like we asked for and then going after pirates for LESS than they are legally entitled to demand is grasping at straws.

This is SANE and beneficial to their actual customers, and good for the developer as well so it is win/win. Pirating is a risky business; either face the potential consequences or don't gamble on not getting caught.

One problem is that I know at least in some countries, you don't even have to be the one who downloaded it to be sentenced, it just has to be your internet connection or your PC.

So say if someone "hacks" into your wireless internet connection and downloads something from it, you're the one who gets the fine.

Also, the fines can vary greatly, I'm fairly certain there have been a few cases of people being fined several thousands of euro(5,000+) for downloading things that are worth like 100 euro total, which feels a bit crazy to me.

 

[Naph]

Do people still use torrents to pirate? Hotfile and the like is where it's at nowadays.

Sarcasm? It's hard to tell.

 

[stemot]

Sarcasm? It's hard to tell.

A little, but for the ones who don't have access to the Usenet stuff it's what most of em are using. Disposable links.

 

[kazsymonds]

I use Easynews instead of torrents, allows me to max out my linespeed most of the time. I have built up a backlog of allowance though, I can download 240gb now!

That's a lot of...er...Linux distros. Yeah, Linux distros, that'll do.

 

[Gargantou]

Doesn't it cost to use a good Usenet-newsgroup thingymajingy or whatever?

*I've never used one, so.*

 

[kazsymonds]

Doesn't it cost to use a good Usenet-newsgroup thingymajingy or whatever?

*I've never used one, so.*

Yeah, roughly the same as Xbox live membership, my cousin and I split the cost and share the account, so for a couple of quid per month, I can guarantee to download at my whole linespeed.

I used it to download an XP and Win7 disc (which I have licences for).

In all seriousness, I have used it for Linux distros which I love to test and play around with (I know you can get them from torrents, but I just hate torrents, and they never max out my linespeed).

I might stop using it, since it's not like I download games and it seems a little uneccesary. I only really like to play games online, so torrent versions would be useless.

 

[Tagaziel]

How are they ever gonna pay for scanning the whole internet? With the typical income of an indie game developer.

CD-Projekt is the biggest game publisher in Poland, hands down. They has monies.

 

[stemot]

CD-Projekt is the biggest game publisher in Poland, hands down. They has monies.

To scan every available method to download a game illegally all over the world. I don't think so.

 

[Gargantou]

What if they outsource the scanning to the asians?

 

[Sedako]

This is fine by me. I have it pre-ordered, because I loved the first game so much despite it's flaws. I hate to see good developers go belly-up for any reason.

 

[Destructo-Bot]

If they ask for something unreasonable I'll not support that. Anything up to about $500 would sting but not be crippling to most. If we start talking 4 figures then I believe that is too much.

 

[Kyorisu]

When will people learn that an IP address is not identifiable information. IP != person. ISPs here won't give out account details without a court order.

 

[Gargantou]

When will people learn that an IP address is not identifiable information. IP != person. ISPs here won't give out account details without a court order.

Well, over here it is illegal to download and upload copyrighted material without permission, meaning that if they see an IP adress that does, they can get a court order and go to the ISP with that, can't they in Australia?

 

[VirusType2]

Most ISPs have a dynamic address. Your IP address changes from time to time. And ISPs aren't always required to store data that tracked who's using what address for extended periods of time. ISPs are being pressured to store that information longer, so who knows.

But all this crap is simply costing ISPs money, through no fault of their own. Supposedly, experts forecast that all of these measures cost ISPs more money than media corporations are loosing through piracy! I don't guess they will just take the losses, and so we will all be paying significantly more expensive internet bills, I guess.

 

[Kyorisu]

Well, over here it is illegal to download and upload copyrighted material without permission, meaning that if they see an IP adress that does, they can get a court order and go to the ISP with that, can't they in Australia?

Say someone magically got a court order merely by saying "look we saw dis IP in a swarm" Yes a swarm unless I directly upload to them they've no way of knowing I'm uploading or downloading anything. Then what? I would go to court they have no evidence to prove I've done anything. One ISP here does serve infringement notices even though they don't legally have to they just do it to pander to copyright tools. Those tools don't know who has done the infringing but the ISP will forward the letter regardless. "Your IP was doing blah." Still haven't heard of any settlements or court cases of any magnitude to frighten me in anyway. Not to say I break copyrights but I like to protect my rights and the rights of ISPs. They provide a service like roads it's not their responsibility to police traffic on their network. Governments need to protect their citizens rights not cater towards douche bag corporations.

My name isn't the one listed on my internet account anyway so I'm 100% safe from any potential incidents. Yes incidents like printers getting taken to court....This kind of thing is abused and innocents are getting hit in the US and Europe.

 

[Gargantou]

This kind of thing is abused and innocents are getting hit in the US and Europe.

I know, that's part of the reason why I said in the thread that I'd preferred a DRM over them hiring private companies to track down "pirates", since there are tons of cases in EU of people being falsely committed and forced to pay several thousands of euros to game companies.