Truth is Relative

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SidewinderX

SidewinderX

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Well, I've been taking some philosopy and logic classes this year, and i'd like to hear you're thoughts/reasoning.

(see topic)
Is the statment true or false? Please say what you think and why. Please don't post unless you have a thought/disagreement with soemhting that's said, and please justify your response.

ps. Incase you were wondering what I thought (I will be jumping in and arguing), I know it is false.
 
You've never heard that phrase before? IMO truth isn't relative, it can't be.

But the phrased is used to explain things....it's hard to explain....
 
I just thought youd forgotten a part of the saying, seemed like it needed "..... to _____"
 
Truth is relative to me. It is what you think it is the truth. Not the actual truth. Simple as that. What's true for me is always the truth, whether that's true for you or not :)
 
Originally posted by SidewinderX143
Make sure you're distingusing between beliefs and truths....
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Yes, and what I beleive is the truth, is the truth! There is no "truth" floating around somewhere... There is only beleif of what is true or not. In peoples minds.

The best example is beleif in aliens. General "truth" has nothing to do it. There are those that beleive or those that dont. I for one do, and I see it as the truth. We are the living truth of that... Even if they filmed spaceships landing and greeting us, how many would beleive it? How many would take it as truth? Quite alot I suppose. And quite alot will beleive its a hoax and say its false. For them it would be false, and not the truth. Still, its the simple truth that its real (in the relative fashion).

Complicated eh? :D
 
Indeed, Truth must be absolute, in order for it to be absolute, every one must accept it, of course human nature is not so easy.
There will always be those who disbelieve any given truth, which means that the truth will always never be absolute.
Applying this same idea to your thoughts, Truth is indeed relative because of that fact that not everyone accepts the truth.

Whoah, that's not bad for me. :)
 
I disagree.

For something to be true, it has to be a universial constant. Otherwise it is a belief.

And, for those of you who haven't gotten it, the phrase "Truth is Relative" cannot be true. If it is, it has ripped logic to shreads (as well as the paper-thin timespace continum. ;) ). When you say "truth is realative" You are saying that everyhting muct be true, at least to someone or soemthing. However, by saying that, you're saying that what you're talking about is false. But it can't be false, because, by saying that statement, you're saying everything is true.
 
Truth is an idea that is created by humans for humans. Really, at best it's an attempt to effectively convey an idea from one human to another. The universe has no mechanism to store all the information throughout it's existance. So yes, truth is relative.
 
"This statement is false."

Another, perhaps simpler example.
 
Relativism sounds cool from a professor in college but sounds ridiculus when applied in real life.

" 2 planes crashed into the WTC killing thousands of people on Sept 11, 2001, or is that just your truth? Because who are you to say that it really happened?"

I bet there are plenty of people in NYC that would give whoever would say that a good arse whooping in the middle of Times Square. But it wouldn't matter to the relativist because his truth would be he didn't just end up getting jacked up by a mob and isn't really laying bleeding in the street with two broken legs. LOL

I think relativism is more a mental game people like to play. Seriously, why don't you call your philosophy teacher a name of the opposite sex the rest of the semester because YOUR truth is that is the way you view him. I doubt you will be getting an A in that class. But hey it doesn't matter because your truth is you are really the teacher and he is the student and you are flunking him.

:p
 
Originally posted by SidewinderX143
You are saying that everyhting muct be true, at least to someone or soemthing. However, by saying that, you're saying that what you're talking about is false. But it can't be false, because, by saying that statement, you're saying everything is true.
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No, everything is netiher true or false. It is unknown. Everything that happened in the past cannot be proven 100%. So for example, we might say that we know 99.99% for sure that JFK was assasinated, and 98% for sure that the moon landing did occur. It's good enough for our purposes, but nothing is ever 100% true.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
No, everything is netiher true or false. It is unknown. Everything that happened in the past cannot be proven 100%. So for example, we might say that we know 99.99% for sure that JFK was assasinated, and 98% for sure that the moon landing did occur. It's good enough for our purposes, but nothing is ever 100% true.
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I never said that everyhting had to be true or false.

Using your example.... you belive that JFK was assinated. It is up to every person to come up with thier own beliefs, or a set of belifs that fits them, but if he was assinated, then it would be a truth. Me saying "it's sunny outside" is a truth, because if you are in the same position as me, at the same time, it would be sunny. You might try and say, "not that's relative. It's sunny outside for yopu, but cloudy for me". I didn't say "It's sunny everywhere in the world", I said "It's sunny out side", and it is a Universal truth for everyone in my position.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
No, everything is netiher true or false. It is unknown. Everything that happened in the past cannot be proven 100%. So for example, we might say that we know 99.99% for sure that JFK was assasinated, and 98% for sure that the moon landing did occur. It's good enough for our purposes, but nothing is ever 100% true.
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Again. Mind games. Relatism is just mental fun for a society that prides itself in being wise.

If nothing is ever 100% true then that is a truth in itself.

It is possible to think a lie is truth, such as did we land on the moon or not. But we either landed on the moon or we didn't. Someone may want to believe we did not land on the moon, but if that event did occur and this person believes otherwise then they are believing a lie.
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
Truth is an idea that is created by humans for humans. Really, at best it's an attempt to effectively convey an idea from one human to another. The universe has no mechanism to store all the information throughout it's existance. So yes, truth is relative.
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I don't get that personally. How can they prove the universe has no mechnaism to store information? I mean what we see ourselves and witness as the universe would be akin to the moniter on our computers, just because the programming as in rules of physics etc are all we know of in the proverbial hard-drive their is no way you can prove their isn't another realm of existence or area which stores it and transfers it, so why do people say that if they can't prove it?

-Oh and also has anyone ever thought of time in the sense of processing speed? I mean if you stand perfectly still in a game things move fast, if you move super fast it slows down right? hehe I know that doesn't make sense relatively and since time would remain seemingly the same to you etc, but its a fun thought for a moment

-Also I believe the truth and what is is constant, singular, and fact and what is is. People operate as a character once said in steven king's dreamcatcher (on 60% emotion 30% sensation and 10% thought, and that 10% is being generous) and I believe that people reject fact, and reject truth because it is too painful for them emotionally (allegory of the cave - plato anyone?) to accept and they would rather be ignorant and happy (although it is possible they make this decision subconsciously in many cases) in their own little world then by accepting what is, I mean so many people seem to refuse to believe that they will die, their friends will die, and they only mourn people close to them despite the fact that people die like what is it every second now? two a second?.. or they believe in things like magic or invisible pink unicorns or whatever floats their boat.. perhaps because our society is so focused on being an individual or on fitting in that they get depressed when they believe anything regular or normal.. wahtever though I'm rambling now
 
Originally posted by LoneDeranger
Truth is an idea that is created by humans for humans.
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I strongly disagree with this. The whole balence of reason is based on truth. The whole point of truth is that it is a constant, somehting never changes.
 
Interesting mindbenders there Sidewinder.

I'm just thinking to keyboard here, so bear with me.

Let's keep with the Conspiricy idea here, let's use the moon landing.

In order for the statement "The moon landing was not faked" to be correct, absolutely everyone must accept that statement as truth.
If even only one person dismisses this statement as false, then the statement becomes false.

Using this same idea it is also possible to conclude that in fact, truth cannot exist as human nature sometimes opts to purposely mislead and decieve.

Hmmm, that lot will probably be ripped apart but it's been a very long time since I thought about these things :)

Good thread by the way, makes a change from the usual suspects.
 
Let's tighten this idea into a smaller data set.

Take three people, place them in a sealed room with a piece of electronic equipment that will emit a single note at a random moment chosen by the equipment itself.

Leave them alone for 12 hours, then return and ask them:

"Did the machine make the sound?"

They all say "Yes", and the statement "The machine did make a noise while the three people were locked inside" is taken to be true.

Now the first statement is broad and does not ask the right question, if they were to ask:

"Did you personally hear the machine make a sound", one person might have fallen asleep, and so he will answer "No" while the other two answer "Yes".
This means that infact, the first statement is neither true nor false, in order for it to be absolutely true, all three people must have heard the sound emitted by the device.

Weeeee!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by SidewinderX143
I strongly disagree with this. The whole balence of reason is based on truth. The whole point of truth is that it is a constant, somehting never changes.
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If you're saying that it's contant, that means there exists some mechanism which records everything that happened, is happening and will happen in the whole universe.

And it's iteresting that everyone brings up such words as "reason", "beliefs" and "logic". Those are all human inventions to help explain reality. An intelligent alien life form could have an alltogether different way of thinking; it would not be able to understand the a concept such as "truth" at all.
 
I don't bother much with beliefs anymore, no matter what I 'believe' in, I don't see it could make any difference. There can be only one truth, and whether you believe in it or not it's not gonna go away. But then again this is just my belief ;) Go figure.
 
Very interesting topic. But we should proceed in another way. What is truth? I *think* (correct me if I'm wrong) that truth is a fact or simply something that is without a doubt. A truth can be told as a simple statement, like: Moon landing was not a fake. There is no "maybe". A truth is absolute.

The problem with some of the justifications I heard is that they always take it to a strict human point of view. When you close you eyes, does the world disappear? It's not because you are not sure that something is true that it's not a truth. If it *is* a truth, then how can it be relative? Whatever if EVERYONE in the world say that the moon doesn't even exist, it doesn't mean there is not a moon. Because there is a difference between what you think, believe or perceive and what *is*.

So a "relative" truth wouldn't be a truth.
 
Originally posted by BloodyL
Interesting mindbenders there Sidewinder.

I'm just thinking to keyboard here, so bear with me.

Let's keep with the Conspiricy idea here, let's use the moon landing.

In order for the statement "The moon landing was not faked" to be correct, absolutely everyone must accept that statement as truth.
If even only one person dismisses this statement as false, then the statement becomes false.

Using this same idea it is also possible to conclude that in fact, truth cannot exist as human nature sometimes opts to purposely mislead and decieve.

Hmmm, that lot will probably be ripped apart but it's been a very long time since I thought about these things :)

Good thread by the way, makes a change from the usual suspects.
Click to expand...

if i convinced everyone in the entire world that i fcuked a playmate, convinced even the playmate that i screwed her, but i didnt, i still didnt screw the playmate. just cuz everyone thinks its true, doesnt mean it is.

ice floats over water. just cuz some idiot might not believe it, it is still the truth.

please reconsider your argument, BloodyL

edit: i, actually, believe the moon landing was faked
 
Originally posted by Morbo

So a "relative" truth wouldn't be a truth.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If you say that somehting is true for you, but false for someone else, it can't be a truth.
 
Originally posted by SidewinderX143
Exactly. If you say that somehting is true for you, but false for someone else, it can't be a truth.
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Isn't that considered an opinion (see everything fragmaster has said)

He believes that that hl2 will not make the sept 30 release date, while other people say it will.
 
No, I meant that, say, you have a Jewish friend (I'm Jewish btw) who says "oh Jesus wasn't the son of God", and then you, a Christian, say "Yes he is, but truth is relative. It's true that he is the Son of God to me, but not to you."
 
Originally posted by SidewinderX143
I strongly disagree with this. The whole balence of reason is based on truth. The whole point of truth is that it is a constant, somehting never changes.
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Ah, but it does change! Cause if you dont know the truth, whatever you know is the truth until you do know the truth. Not to so ago everbody knew the world was flat (and before that many knew it was round, hehe), and that was the general truth. It wasnt a doubt, just simple truth. Now we know it to be false.

What about history in general? Everybody say for a fact that dinousars walked the earth over 65 million years ago. But is that really the truth? What about religion, christians that claims God created it what, 10,000bc? What if by some miracle (yeah, one hell of a big miracle :)) we get PROOF of this. Undisputed throughout the world, rendering everything we know false. What is the truth then? What was truth yesterday would be false today. I KNOW it is the truth. I feel it in my gut. This planet is old, very old. I see it as the general truth, and everyone I meet would agree with me. But if I tomorrow find this out... Its not the truth anymore...

So yes, I still say truth is relative. There is no such thing as absolute truth. Why? Cause there NEED to be a human there to accept it as truth. And that is like going through a filter...
Like the riddle of the sound of a falling tree with no one around, does it still make a sound? No one hears it. Its exactly the same thing. You need someone there to hear it to confirm that yes, it actually makes a sound. And since we happen to be humans, it have to be a human, so they can tell us.
Edit: And if that human happens to be deaf, what is the truth then? He would swear on his life he never heard a sound. But it aint the truth! :)
 
Make sure you are distinguishing betweena belief and a truth. the common person will use them interchnagable, but they are not that same.
 
Originally posted by dawdler
Ah, but it does change! Cause if you dont know the truth, whatever you know is the truth until you do know the truth. Not to so ago everbody knew the world was flat (and before that many knew it was round, hehe), and that was the general truth. It wasnt a doubt, just simple truth. Now we know it to be false.
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It may be the truth to you, but it's not a truth in intself. Saying that the world is round was false a thousand years ago and still is. A truth doesn't depend on anything, it's just there, wainting for someone t discover it. We may never ne sure if something is true, but that doesn't mean it's not. Even if everyone in the world was dead, the world would still be round and therefore it would still be a truth.
 
Originally posted by Morbo
It may be the truth to you, but it's not a truth in intself. Saying that the world is round was false a thousand years ago and still is. A truth doesn't depend on anything, it's just there, wainting for someone t discover it. We may never ne sure if something is true, but that doesn't mean it's not. Even if everyone in the world was dead, the world would still be round and therefore it would still be a truth.
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But who would be there to explain its the truth? And no SidewinderX143, I do not distinguishing between belief and a truth. Obviously. Cause I think its the same thing.

The fact is that someone or something needs to point out its a truth. Until someone do, it doesnt exist. It just isnt there. Yes the world would still be round if nothing inhabitet it. But that is *YOU* saying its a truth! You see it from an allknowingly point of view, but it is still *YOU* that point it out. No one else. The human brain cannot comprehend true truth. Because it is that, a brain. It is you. Whatever you say here, it comes from you, nothing else. Even if God said the earth was created in 7 days, it would still be *HIS* truth. He says its true.

Yes, I may be odd, but my opinion is that only time and a select few laws of physics exists (and I dont mean time as in minutes, just constant forward movement, and the laws of physics as in just gravity, not the number 9.82). EVERYTHING else is in the human brain.
 
Truth is definitely not relative. Opinions and perspectives are relative.
 
Originally posted by oldi1knoby
Truth is definitely not relative. Opinions and perspectives are relative.
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But that is your opinion and perspective on truth. See? :p
 
if we will believe that truth is relative, then quoting socrates, relativists should grant that what non relativists say is true when they say that truth is absolute.

come to think of it.. if the relativists say that truth depends on who thinks it true.. then they are already disproving their point by stating that their "truth" (truth is relevant) is the one true thing that everybody should accept.
 
pinoyako said:
if we will believe that truth is relative, then quoting socrates, relativists should grant that what non relativists say is true when they say that truth is absolute.

come to think of it.. if the relativists say that truth depends on who thinks it true.. then they are already disproving their point by stating that their "truth" (truth is relevant) is the one true thing that everybody should accept.
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resing an OLD topic, but damn, you sounded smart there.

To bad I'm much too stupid to understand any of it:eek:

*EDIT* just noticed HOW old this topic was. 2003?! damn.
 
CyberPitz said:
resing an OLD topic, but damn, you sounded smart there.

To bad I'm much too stupid to understand any of it:eek:

*EDIT* just noticed HOW old this topic was. 2003?! damn.
Click to expand...

2003?!! yeah, i never realized that

i'll go get myself a newer topic lol
 
I don't believe truth can be relative but truth can be relative if only it isn't.
 
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