Universal Health Care

[Taboo]

This was, as you probably guessed, inspired by Micheal Moores recent documentary Sicko. Personally, Im not a fan of Micheal Moore in the least, but I was wondering what you guys had to say on the subject of Universal Health Care since this is a really diverse forum. How does Health Care work where you live? Do you like it? How effective do you think it is?

Common myths in America: "Universal Health Care = communism," "you wont be able to pick your doctor," "you will have to wait for months to get any form of care," "the facilities are horrible," "the doctors dont get paid anything," "the doctors will be bad," "taxes will sky rocket," etc.

 

[Qonfused]

I love the idea of universal heath care. I don't know why America hasn't adopted it yet. Are we still trying to be different like with our measurement system? Everything points to a universal heath care system. So what if our taxes will sky rockets? We're already paying less than what we should be.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I will be commenting on swedish health care system.

"you wont be able to pick your doctor,"

In Sweden you are assigned a doctor, but may change if you are not happy.

"you will have to wait for months to get any form of care,"

I once had to remove my appendix, it was life threatening and I got the surgery the very same day I was diagnosed. I was also diagnosed for it the same day my family contacted the hospital. You can wait for months for things that you can wait with, but if you risk your life or your longterm health you do not have to wait long.

"the facilities are horrible,"

The facilities are well taken care of.

"the doctors dont get paid anything,"

It is recognized in sweden that the doctors are very well paid.

"the doctors will be bad,"

The doctors are very good. All medical procedures I have gone through have been very successful.

"taxes will sky rocket," etc.

Sweden has the highest taxes in the world (not only becouse of our health care system) and we still have a very high standard of living.

 

[Majestic XII]

I have some experience with the dentist that makes me happy that we have a universial health care system.

I lost my front tooth when I was a kid (some other kid smacked a piece of wood on my mouth), I went in to rebuild it (the same day, no wait). I continued to lose my front tooth about ten times after that, but I've been "clean" for the last past years. They replaced it with a permanent crown a year ago and they also did some jaw surgery to take out two teeth (not my front tooth) and some bone samples to look for cancer (no cancer found!). After that they did some drilling to place a new fake tooth where the two others had been (they were located all the way in the back, so I didnt need two replacements).

Cost for dental care all these years: Nothing, as far as I know. I don't even want to know what I would pay otherwise D:

 

[Stigmata]

Those myths are total bullshit, through and through. The only one with any merit is that taxes will be higher. But the people against taxes never seem to realize how much money they'd save, because they're brainwashed to think "taxes = communism = evil for some reason".

Taxes are health insurance in and of themselves. It's like a membership fee to the country - pay your taxes, and you get free healthcare and education.

[edit] Unfortunately dental isn't covered by the Canadian healthcare system

 

[Raxxman]

the health care system in the UK is overloaded and overworked. It's failing badly and is a bottomless pit as far as money is concerned.

Your 'myths' are more or less UK reality. Docs get paid well though.

 

[DeusExMachina]

America don't need Universal Health Care. Get your communism away from me.

 

[Qonfused]

America don't need Universal Health Care. Get your communism away from me.

Oh God, here it comes.

 

[StardogChampion]

Waiting lines are pretty bad for certain treatments here in the UK. You can still go to private healthcare though if you have the cash.

 

[Stigmata]

America don't need Universal Health Care. Get your communism away from me.

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

 

[Beerdude26]

Commenting on Belgian Health Care System:

"you wont be able to pick your doctor,"

You can go to any doctor you like if you are a member of the health are system. Medicine and examinations are repaid to both the doctor and the patient, so why wouldn't you want to be a member?

"you will have to wait for months to get any form of care,"

Wrong again.

"the facilities are horrible,"

No, they're awesome. Filling out forms or sheets isn't necessary, the health system administration has to do that

"the doctors dont get paid anything,"

See last option. While my dad (he's a doctor) has to pay a SHITLOAD of taxes, he gets a lot of it back through investments. The earnings are a bit lower than other surrounding countries I think, don't quote me on this though.

"the doctors will be bad,"

Personal opinion. Sure, some doctors are bad, but in general the personnel is very well trained.

"taxes will sky rocket,"

They've skyrocketed a long, long time ago. In Belgium, it's "Spend money to make money". The more you spend, the more taxes you get refunded. Keeps the economy going while getting you more stuff

 

[Stigmata]

"the doctors will be bad,"

Also, just to shed some light on this:

The main reason that socialized medicine has "worse" doctors is because America and other countries with privatized healthcare industries cause what's known as the "brain drain" - that is (in North America), doctors and surgeons and so forth choose to work in the US rather than Canada because American doctors get paid far more money. But the reason they get paid more is because their work costs more in the US, which is entirely the fault of the privatized healthcare/insurance industry. Socialize America's system, and then the quality doctors get spread equally around the country, and more equally between countries as well. End result: You still have good doctors, but you don't go bankrupt if you fall off a ladder and have to get a spinal disc realigned.

 

[Raxxman]

Hey, that's why they have lawyers.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm all for a universal healthcare system.

I remember being at the gym last week and watching Fox News on one of the monitors due to an absence of anything else "interesting" and they talked about a poll in which young Americans were asked what they thought of a universal healthcare system that you paid taxes for and the results were resoundingly in favor of it.

Then they brought on some talking head who chalked it up to shallow liberal appeal because "they don't realize that they'll be paying for it"... even thought that was made explicitly clear in the very ****ing question that was asked.

Naturally, the anchorwoman did the typical "lol well its a very interesting debate" spiel and then switched to our near-total victory in Iraq.

 

[Stigmata]

Hey, that's why they have lawyers.

Who are you responding to?

[edit] lol Absinthe. I think from now on whenever Fox does something stupid, we hyperlink "Fox was stupid again :|" to a CNN page on the subject and leave it at that. Any elaboration is purely unnecessary, since we all know how they are by now.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I wouldn't mind if we had a choice between going for universal health care or private health care, as long as we have the choice. If I have the money, I'm going for private health care. If I don't, well I'll just let my body deal with it. I ain't no damn socialist.

 

[Qonfused]

Oh, you're so funny Deus.

 

[Taboo]

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree

That has a list of tax rates for various countries. Most of them vary so its not too much help but its still an idea. I think Universal healthcare would be good. Ive traditionally been against the idea because I typically deal with specialists and I couldnt imagine not being able to choose my doctor, but when you take accidents into account it really is a horrible situation. Ambulances WILL NOT take you anywhere until you finish your paper work. Then they can only take you to certain hospitals and once there youre met with more paperwork and even afterwards you find yourself swamped in debt. Apart from these marked cases I know lots of people that rarely see doctors for anything (from a bad cough to a broken toe to a potentially dislocated arm) because its "too expensive."

Our healthcare system must destroy alot of peoples lives.

 

[Baratos]

I never understood why people support private health care. Every country that tried it has had nothing but pain caused by it. It tells doctors that they point of medicine is not to save lives, but to make money. I should not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get some of the worst healthcare of any industrialized country.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Here lemme call the waaaaaahmbulance and get you some french cries.

 

[Dan]

I don't think universal health care is such a good idea. Why should we be paying the medical bills for aliens on other planets?

 

[Absinthe]

I don't think universal health care is such a good idea. Why should we be paying the medical bills for aliens on other planets?

I see what you did there.

 

[Asus]

Most of the people I have talked with who don't want universal health care don't like the idea of their cost increasing while the system supports everyone. Usually they are also people who don't get sick much at all. They think it's about being responsible for yourself. Others say they are being selfish.

They don't bring up concerns about quality of care going down or anything like that.

 

[theotherguy]

Universal healthcare is needed because healthcare is a public good with positive externalities.

Healthy people make more money for their employers than sick people, and work-sponsored health-insurance makes an unnecessary burden on employees to take lower wages in exchange for healthcare. The benifits of good healthcare are thus not paid by health insurance companies. In fact, health insurance companies profit by denying healthcare as much as possible.

This has resulted in several bad things for the economy:
1. Unfair social gap. The best healthcare is monopolized by the rich. The richest people end up getting the best doctors and the most experimental treatment, because they can pay for it, while the sickest people with the least money are not given the treatment they need. This widens the income gap.

2. Health debt. A free market is based on choice, and you basically have no choice when your life is at stake. It's like choosing not to drink water. Such choices should not be in a market economy because there is no consumer incentive to not accept treatment. This leads to people paying for things they cannot afford, they go into debt, and shockwaves ripple through the economy.

3. Denials. Healthcare organizations profit by denying treatment. This means a good number of people are not getting the health care they need.

4. Expensive drugs. If drugs are consumer items, the consumer has to bear the entire price of a product that he or she needs, and doctors cannot perscribe the proper medications if a patient cannot pay for them. The price of drugs can be unfairly raised by oligopolistic drug companies because the demand is unusually high.


Socializing medicine would fix all of these problems, and it would be exactly where is should be: a necessary public good provided by the government. Let unnecessary cosmetic surgery be paid for by consumers, but it is completely illogical to make them pay for life-saving procedures that they need to survive.

 

[Geogaddi]

My Money ---> Doctor


My Money ---> Government ---> Stupid shit
              Government ---> Doctor

fsdsdfsdf

 

[Baratos]

My Money ---> Doctor

fsdsdfsdf

Actually, its more like:

My Money---->Owners of hospital---->pharmaceutical company---->government--->doctor if anything is left over

 

[Geogaddi]

I was just trolling anyway.

 

[Qonfused]

Oh lawd.

 

[ríomhaire]

AFAIK, in Ireland, if you have no insurance and you break your leg, you will be taken to hospital, have tests, x-rays, surgery, stitching and casts and all you will have to pay for is the x-ray. But you may get put on a waiting list if it isn't life threatening (If you're paying/have insurance then it'l happen faster).

 

[Beerdude26]

****ing All Of My Money ---> Doctor


Part Of My Money ---> Government ---> Stupid shit
                      Government ---> Doctor
                      Government ---> Me ---> Holy f[I]u[/I]ckshit this is awesome

fsdsdfsdf

More like this in Belgium

 

[The Monkey]

Yeah, I support it 100%.

I wish dental care was free as well (as it is now, only people up to 19 have free dental care).

 

[Majestic XII]

Yeah, I support it 100%.

I wish dental care was free as well (as it is now, only people up to 19 have free dental care).

Correction: Up to 20 years.

 

[Stigmata]

So I kind of like debating this stuff, who's actually against this?

 

[The Monkey]

Correction: Up to 20 years.

Yeah, I meant to say "up to and including 19 years".