Valve snaps up Bittorrent Creator

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frances_farmer

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Valve's Torrent [01:02 pm]
0 Comments - Steve Gibson
Although we generally dont cover hirings and firings from game companies and publishers around these parts when something as significant as this comes along it is worth taking note. It seems that Valve Software quietly snatched up the author of BitTorrent a few months ago as noted in this article. Of course the hardcore out there were aware of this so just consider this news for the rest.

Out of the blue, he heard from Gabe Newell, the managing director of Valve Software, based in nearby Bellevue, Wash. [...] "When we looked around to see who was doing the most interesting work in this space, Bram's progress on BitTorrent really stood out," Mr. Newell said. "The distributed publishing model embedded in BitTorrent is exactly the kind of thing media companies need to build on for their own systems."
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http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/30504 or for more detail http://nytimes.com/2004/02/12/technology/circuits/12shar.html

Discuss! :D
 
does this mean they will be implementing the BT protacol into steam? It would take some strian off the content servers.
 
BT would be rather nice to have when HL2 comes out, although i dont complain much with steam right now. had to redownload DOD a few days ago and i averaged 2.3megs a second and peaked at 4.6 megs a second.
 
They arent going to implement Bit torrent into Steam, they would have said so by now. He is useful however for adding stability to the Steam system and network.
 
when i read the topic i was thing valve was sueing him or somthing for makeing the program... was assuming you could probly get the HL2 beta off it
 
Worst idea ever


1) how many steam users are going to keep it running in the background slowing things down when they don't need to use it (thus defeating the point of torrent style)

2) what happens to those with bandwidth limits on how much they can use a day

3) you'll likely be uploading to others while playing online, thats gonna lag games

4) the theory is to get faster speeds, you upload more.. How many people bother to do that already, human nature is take take, who's going to keep it running to upload to others once you've got what you want?

5) people who are "renting" the games via steam, will be paying to do Valve's work for them, and will come to resent those who bought their software from stores or mail-order who can jump on, use steam then go again and play their versions without requiring steam (unless they've changed their mind about that again)

6) There are still many many thousands of 56k users out there. How will this effect those users, sure, can tell them "go get broadband" but most can't, not available in their area, too expensive etc. And since their a good chunk of those who'd be buying, shutting them out could be bad.

The only possible reason they'd do this is that they've discovered Steam wont work how they'd intended it to. This is probably going to mean another delay. Not to mention all the problems associated with torrents in general.


It's far from good news
 
like he said, they might add some type of BT for the content servers, which would serve as some sort of load-balancing.

i dont see how valve hiring the author of a very successful data distribution program is a bad thing. As far as this delaying HL2 more: at this point, who cares if they delay it more?

I certainly don't ... you could say that the damage has been done.
 
Fenric, I seriously doubt that valve is going to impliment bit torrent directly into steam in it's native form. In fact, nothing saying they would impliment any portion of bit torrent at all. Most likely they just want the brain power behind the software to help make Steam better.
 
Fenric said:
Worst idea ever


1) how many steam users are going to keep it running in the background slowing things down when they don't need to use it (thus defeating the point of torrent style)

2) what happens to those with bandwidth limits on how much they can use a day

3) you'll likely be uploading to others while playing online, thats gonna lag games

4) the theory is to get faster speeds, you upload more.. How many people bother to do that already, human nature is take take, who's going to keep it running to upload to others once you've got what you want?

5) people who are "renting" the games via steam, will be paying to do Valve's work for them, and will come to resent those who bought their software from stores or mail-order who can jump on, use steam then go again and play their versions without requiring steam (unless they've changed their mind about that again)

6) There are still many many thousands of 56k users out there. How will this effect those users, sure, can tell them "go get broadband" but most can't, not available in their area, too expensive etc. And since their a good chunk of those who'd be buying, shutting them out could be bad.

The only possible reason they'd do this is that they've discovered Steam wont work how they'd intended it to. This is probably going to mean another delay. Not to mention all the problems associated with torrents in general.


It's far from good news
Click to expand...


If they implement BT, it won't be in the same form as it is now. You won't use torrent files with steam, steam will just use p2p to take the strian off content servers if needs be.

From my experience with steam it seems to not interferre with internet operations outside of the Steam interface, in other words it slows down games that are run as part of steam (e.g CS, HL) when updateing, but will only use spare bandwidth that other applications are not useing. So i can still use the internet while Steam is updateing which is why i leave it on all the time.

If Valve gave steam a p2p capabuility it probably would be set up not to interferre with anything else. So it would only upload data when your not useing the internet connection. As for people with bandwidth limits they will have to be given an option to switch off p2p so they can niether download off other customers nor upload to them so they are not leaching.

If done properly you wouldn't even know it's there especially if it was only used when the content servers get too full.
 
I see this as bad, concidering they just hired him in october?? That means that the code is probibly still in development, whatever he is working on. Further proving that half life 2 is no where in site, probibly in the next 6 months. IMHO :thumbs:
 
Anable said:
Fenric, I seriously doubt that valve is going to impliment bit torrent directly into steam in it's native form. In fact, nothing saying they would impliment any portion of bit torrent at all. Most likely they just want the brain power behind the software to help make Steam better.
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Who said they'd impliment bit torrents directly into steam? I was talking about the same technology (why hire him to do a different method, makes even less sense) It would be very bad if they used straight torrent files
 
nickAnderson:Steam can be updated after HL2 is released you know.
 
When I read the title I thought Valve were going to sue him since most ppl got the HL2 Beta thru Bit Torrent.. Hehe!

Aye, this be some good shit , faster DLs.
 
Well obviously steam does have content servers so it wont need to have the same upload/download ratio that Torrent has, to answer Fenric.

1) They dont need to keep it open, they can just do it while your downloading.

2) If you have bandwidth limits you probably dont have a fast enough connection to download it anyway, either that or wait a few more days to do it, or buy it in the shop (if its HL2 itself), or indeed allow people to turn it off.

3) See 1

4) Dont let them get the benefits without the penalty. either u only get of content servers, or u can get off everyone, but u upload.

5) Then dont rent, if Valve think this is the best way to do it, its their perogative. If they can make people pay to do their work, good on them :) You could say its a monopoly, but you always have the option of not playing HL2 at all, Valve will have to judge how many people would do this, it would hurt their profits so they have the risk.

6) 56K users will just see it taking a bit longer, again up to valve to decide, I assume they have done this :)

They will probably still the leave the option of downloading mods and stuff outside steam. Yeah their may be problems, but Valve will be the first to react if there is :)
 
I remember one of the Valve guys saying that they wanted to implement some sort of BitTorrent-esque distribution system into Steam. Then, this guy mysteriously got hired. I think that is enough to conclude that they are going through with the plan.

I think it is a great idea. If done properly there is no downside to it.
 
Hey OCybrManO, what molecule is represented in your avatar?
 
The most wonderful-est molecule in the whole wide world: Caffeine!
 
This late in the game and they hire a guy to help them out with Steam? Thanks Valve for pinning HL2's release on that unholy(and holy unnecessary) distribution application of yours. Really appreciate it, morons(I'm talking about Valve, not anyone here).
 
Wilco said:
Well obviously steam does have content servers so it wont need to have the same upload/download ratio that Torrent has, to answer Fenric.

1) They dont need to keep it open, they can just do it while your downloading.

2) If you have bandwidth limits you probably dont have a fast enough connection to download it anyway, either that or wait a few more days to do it, or buy it in the shop (if its HL2 itself), or indeed allow people to turn it off.

3) See 1

4) Dont let them get the benefits without the penalty. either u only get of content servers, or u can get off everyone, but u upload.

5) Then dont rent, if Valve think this is the best way to do it, its their perogative. If they can make people pay to do their work, good on them :) You could say its a monopoly, but you always have the option of not playing HL2 at all, Valve will have to judge how many people would do this, it would hurt their profits so they have the risk.

6) 56K users will just see it taking a bit longer, again up to valve to decide, I assume they have done this :)

They will probably still the leave the option of downloading mods and stuff outside steam. Yeah their may be problems, but Valve will be the first to react if there is :)
Click to expand...
With that kind of attitude to their customers their doomed to failure. Alienating those who have limits, those on dialup and those who decide to pay across steam. Thats a MASSIVE number of potential customers they'd be pretty much saying "oh well, f*ck off then if you can't use it" Can't tell me thats good business :). It would make far more sense to have some other company do it first, learn of the pitfalls then cease trading as the case will be, then Valve wouldn't risk anything themselves, let another business take the fall while its working out what isn't going to work

In answer to your answers

1) If its a part of Steam, then your going to have to keep it open to play, and just because you might have what you need downloaded, it doesn't mean others have. It's assuming everyone will download at the same time and be finished at the same time. Which is quite obviously impossible

2) So a 1mbit connection isn't fast enough then? Thats just dumb. Many ISP's have limits on downloads per day, NTL had one briefly too. Others continue to have them, many US cable providers have them for example.

3) see 1 :p

4) That doesn't fix the problem. That was what bit torrent was supposed to do in the beginning, to try make it fair.. It failed and people end up uploading far more than they can download. In theory its a nice idea, in practice its proven itself unworkable

5) "Then don't rent"? But thats going against everything Valve are trying to do. They want you to rent via steam. It works out cheaper for them so more profits for them. Making it a problem to do that is going to put people off doing the very thing they want them to do.

6) 56k users will find it unplayable. They'll already be stuck with bag connection speeds, throw in torrent style uploading/downloading in the background and they don't have very much bandwidth left to play the game. This too goes against what they've said about HL2 "we want to keep it playable for those with less powerful systems"

If they also include the option of getting files _without_ the need to use Steam, then it might save it. If they force everyone to use it then well its going to fail. All of it in theory are great idea's.. It's just more and more like someone has an idea and they decide to change direction mid flow and do something different. I used to have a lot of faith in Valve, Source, HL2 and Steam... I just don't know anymore. I hope they do know what their doing, I really do. I hope its not simply grasping at straws like its beginning to sound :(
 
BT is very good at load balancing the bandwidth from various sources.

If valve were to implement it I would think they would use it to balance the load between lots of smaller content servers all over the US / rest of the world.

I very much doubt they'd be using the users bandwidth because, as others have said, it would introduce lag to a system where you want it least.

Anyways its all speculation until something official is announced
 
lotusandy said:
BT is very good at load balancing the bandwidth from various sources.

If valve were to implement it I would think they would use it to balance the load between lots of smaller content servers all over the US / rest of the world.

I very much doubt they'd be using the users bandwidth because, as others have said, it would introduce lag to a system where you want it least.

Anyways its all speculation until something official is announced
Click to expand...
Well they'd have to use the users bandwidth, everything does, thats why you can't download 40 mp3's, play DOD MP, stream a radio station and upload work to a website. You've got a finite amount of bandwidth to upload and to download. Everything you do eats up a bit of that. I'd much rather them invest in enough servers like a proper company, so I could download a patch for HL2 at my maximum speed than find everything is limited cause steam is sending out and downloading its own stuff at the same time. Not to mention I'm sure my ISP would have something to say about it constantly doing this. I wouldn't put it past a lot of ISP's infact to block Steam completely. As you'll know, cable connections in each area all share a common local connection for those nearby, like brances on a tree, so if your in certain area's where there's high usage, your connection speed will suffer aswell since that local connection has to pipe up and down data from all those other customers, so it begins to slow that area down. Imagine it in the center of london, an already busy area, made worse by something like this, an already bad idea. NTL for one, consider this innapropriate use of the service when it begins to effect other customers. When you see that cable users are going to suffer, its not surprising 56k users will have no chance.
 
1) Steam stops downloading when you play a game... so I would expect it to stop uploading to other people, as well.

2) If you only have limits on downloads per day it won't matter if they implement BitTorrent or not... either way you will still be downloading the same amount. If you have a limit on uploads per day you should be able to disable only the BitTorrent part and download it all straight from the servers... as if the BitTorrent addition to Steam never existed.

3) See 1

4) The Steam version will not depend on hoping that "everyone will download at the same time and be finished at the same time." With Steam you probably won't be using BitTorrent to get the vast majority of your download from peers since they have servers with fat pipes that will take care of most of the load. The more people that are downloading the file at the same time the more effective it is. If one person is downloading the file they get everything from the server... but in cases where the servers would normally be swamped it would allow the system to keep running without having the whole Steam "release day bandwidth crisis" all over again. Hopefully after you have completed the file you will be removed from the bandwidth pool since you are no longer putting any stress on the servers.

5) I doubt they will force people to use the BitTorrent mode... though, if you have broadband without monthly/daily limits it would behoove you to enable it. Maybe you could get some kind of download priority or some other benefit if you enable it. I don't know what they are planning...

6) I doubt they will force 56k'ers to use the BitTorrent mode... and why would you be downloading huge files on 56k anyway?
 
Who the hell said this had anything to do with BitTorrent, Valve just hired a competant software engineer :)

What they'll do will be different methinks ;)
 
Fenric, imagine this:
A new large update for cs is released, 200 megs in size. The content servers would be fully loaded for several days. But with a p2p system you can distribute the load, if the load of the content servers is maxed, it turns on p2p. While you're downloading your files, the other person is downloading the piece of the files that you already have downloaded, so you won't have to leave your download on if you're ready. But Steam will have to keep the download rate stable not often seen in p2p, so it's not switching off the content server to you totally, but it changes the bandwidth it gives you according to how many seeds for the p2p there are. With many seeds, it will give you less bandwidth and visa versa.
So Steam could manage the distribution of bandwidth without overloading and eventually crashing.
I think if Valve would implement something like p2p, it won't be something to replace the content servers, but to take the load of them.
 
1) 2) 3) 4) 5) then whats the point of it atall. Buying more servers would solve the problem just like that, and not alienate anyone.. Well I can think of one reason for doing something like this, but I wont start up the rumor mill. Needless to say there are no good reasons for doing this, just shortcuts and financial reasons.

6) ask a 56k user, im on cable but unlike most, I haven't forgotton what a shit time it was on dialup. See you add "and why would you be downloading huge files" well, thats maybe something to ask the developers too.
 
mrBadger said:
Who the hell said this had anything to do with BitTorrent, Valve just hired a competant software engineer :)

What they'll do will be different methinks ;)
Click to expand...
Actually I think it was you that hinted at that so shush :p
 
Steam including bittorrent-like functionality is definatly a good thing, because as others have said, it does solve hideous patch-day nightmares, although if Valve used the pre-load functionality already built into Steam those would be lessened anyways... however, I digress.

You're all making the assumption that this is to help with delievery of retail games. Why? Valve is intending to make Steam a platform that anyone can use for delievery, and that includes the amateurs, and the small-time professionals as well as the large devlopers. A bittorrent-like system would help immensely with the distribution of things like mods, maps, custom models. It would make the benefits of Steam-based auto-updates avaliable to even the little guys who can't really afford things like Steam content servers. If you have limits on your download/upload, fine, turn off peer-to-peer, don't download full games from Steam.
 
Fenric said:
With that kind of attitude to their customers their doomed to failure. Alienating those who have limits, those on dialup and those who decide to pay across steam. ...

In answer to your answers

1) If its a part of Steam, then your going to have to keep it open to play, and just because you might have what you need downloaded, it doesn't mean others have. It's assuming everyone will download at the same time and be finished at the same time. Which is quite obviously impossible

[See the post... :)]
Click to expand...

"You cant please all of the people all of the time" :)

It does come down to numbers. You say lots of people will find this system unworkable, I say it will in a small minority, We'll probably just have to see :)

1) As said before, Steam stops when u start playing, so do the same here. Or have it stop when you stop downloading, it doesnt have to upload just because you have steam going (that would be stupid). It doesn't assume everyone downloads it at the same time. As more people download it there will be more uploading, so at periods when there is a large demand people can get it from other sources. When there is low demand, people just get it straight off the Content Servers, which can handle it.
You dont need to have a high download to upload ratio. a ratio of 1 would keep it going as long as there was 1 person hosting in the beginning, but you dont need it that high, it higher the number the greater the max capaicity of the system, so you just need to predict that well.

There will almost certianly not be enough servers available at launch. Have you seen the queues at Fileplanet etc when theres a popular update (Steam Release anyone?) and thats lots of companies all over the world. Now yes steam can host more servers than say fileplanet as it has better financial backing, but your going to need far more than that for the launch.

I have to admit im not sure of the proliferation of Bandwidth limits, as far as I know my service (512 Cable) doesnt have a limit, at least I've never hit it.

Valve did say that they thought that the Subscription service would end up cheaper for people. Now its hard to a product cheaper and end up with more profit (you'd need an elastic Demand Curve for a start).

people downloading off 56K are going to have a long wait anyway, I wonder how many of them get their downloads of Cover Disks etc, thus sidestepping the problem completely. Yes 56k people might be hit, you just have to judge how many of them will be put off by this :).

Right looking back thats just a repeat of OCybrManO's post. ah well.

Oh Epsi what is said can easily be applied directly to mods and everything else, except for the profit bit :)
 
Epsi said:
Steam including bittorrent-like functionality is definatly a good thing, because as others have said, it does solve hideous patch-day nightmares, although if Valve used the pre-load functionality already built into Steam those would be lessened anyways... however, I digress.

You're all making the assumption that this is to help with delievery of retail games. Why? Valve is intending to make Steam a platform that anyone can use for delievery, and that includes the amateurs, and the small-time professionals as well as the large devlopers. A bittorrent-like system would help immensely with the distribution of things like mods, maps, custom models. It would make the benefits of Steam-based auto-updates avaliable to even the little guys who can't really afford things like Steam content servers. If you have limits on your download/upload, fine, turn off peer-to-peer, don't download full games from Steam.
Click to expand...
Everyone listen to Epsi because he is wise! :)
 
another-user said:
although i dont complain much with steam right now. had to redownload DOD a few days ago and i averaged 2.3megs a second and peaked at 4.6 megs a second.
Click to expand...
I think Steam uses kilobits, not kilobytes, per second. This would mean you averaged 288 kb/sec.
 
Fenric said:
financial reasons.
Click to expand...
Theres the reason.

Running servers and paying for bandwidth is quite a lot of money. Peer-peer would solve so many problems.

And to the 56k users complaining, i don't care. I'm going to be harsh, but you don't belong on modern day internet with a connection that slow. If I had 56k i would not partake in hobbies that require connections that are 10 times faster (gaming and downloading game patches).

56k users --> GTFO.
 
Mr-Fusion said:
Theres the reason.

Running servers and paying for bandwidth is quite a lot of money. Peer-peer would solve so many problems.

And to the 56k users complaining, i don't care. I'm going to be harsh, but you don't belong on modern day internet with a connection that slow. If I had 56k i would not partake in hobbies that require connections that are 10 times faster (gaming and downloading game patches).

56k users --> GTFO.
Click to expand...
Ok then, what do you suggest the 56k users do if they can't get cable in their area? Should they be discriminated against because of where they live?

Something all cable users should realise, cable providers go out of business a heck of a lot. I hope that doesn't happen to you and you end up stuck on dialup and being shut out by those you once saw as friends, even though it would be poetic justice :p
 
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