We have'nt heard anything out of Europe ... until now.

[K e r b e r o s]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

Gunman kills Dutch film director

Van Gogh directed TV series and wrote newspaper columns
Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, who made a controversial film about Islamic culture, has been stabbed and shot dead in Amsterdam, Dutch police say.

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005861.php

According to press reports, Theo Van Gogh was gunned down in Amsterdam and apparently begged for his life before the attacker finished him off by slitting his throat. The attacker, one Mohammed Bouyeri, had previously been investigated by Dutch authorities for his involvement with Samir Azzouz, an Islamic extremist who appears to have attempted to join Basayev's Chechen contingent 2 years earlier. Bouyeri left a letter containing some atypical Salafist rhetoric on Van Gogh's body, and is already believed to have something of a criminal record.

Simply terrible. In other news:

http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/summaries/ob160sum.htm

In answering our first research question, we drew up an inventory of the racist incidents that occurred in the Netherlands during the course of 1994. The materials used for this study were derived primarily from two sources of information: the Internal Security Service (BVD) and the National Criminal Intelligence Division (CRI) of the Netherlands' law enforcement authorities.

Three additional sources were consulted in order to determine the completeness of this basic body of information sources. First and foremost, we consulted two police districts: the Amsterdam-Amstelland district and the Gooi- en Vechtstreek district. The second supplementary source was a database of the Anti Discrimination Bureau (ADB) in Rotterdam, more commonly known as RADAR. The third source comprised press reports. Using an analysis of seventeen regional and seven national newspapers, we drew up an overview of incidents occurring in 1994. The findings in consulting these three sources suggest that the actual number of incidents occurring in 1994 may well have been higher than the figure indicated by the basic information sources.

According to the basic information sources, a total of 1,228 incidents took place.

Hate crimes in the Netherlands is on the rise ...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-22-jews-france_x.htm

But like thousands of other French Jews who have moved to Israel in the past four years, they are glad to be here. Back in France, they say, rising anti-Semitic attacks by Muslim immigrants and the anti-Israel bias of the French government and media had made life increasingly uncomfortable for them.

Nothing I had ever known before -- nothing we were ever told.

http://www.iht.com/articles/530161.html

PARIS France to Ariel Sharon: You should keep quiet.
.
When Israel's prime minister on Sunday urged the Jews of France to flee immediately to Israel to escape anti-Semitism at home, the reaction was swift, angry and unified. French officials, lawmakers, commentators and Jewish leaders all told Sharon that he was out of line.
.
"Sharon's Insult to France," screamed the lead front-page headline of the center-right newspaper Le Figaro on Monday. A front-page editorial in the newspaper France Soir declared that the Israeli leader "is losing his marbles."

Anti-Semitism is on the rise according to this study

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/as_france.asp

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1079410302600

French officials are investigating threats against France by a radical Islamic group, the Justice Ministry said Tuesday.

The group identified itself as the "Servants of Allah the Powerful and Wise," the ministry said. It was unclear whether the group is known to French authorities.

I guess my question now to the European members of the forum is, WHATS GOING ON OVER THERE? :O

 

[gh0st]

They are letting their heritage die with things like 'multiculturalism', and 'affirmative action' all the heralds of an advanced society right? Wrong, they are dilluting their heritage with mass immigration, then they find out the immigrants who come to their countries for prosperity hate their country and want to take it over. ****ing disgusting. Its happening to america too.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Anti-Radical protests are already taking place ...

http://hq.**************.com/?page=/featured/International/Dutch/dutchpw.php

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

The Van Gogh murder was in november 2004, but things are still overheated here.

The real target for the assassination was a female politician called Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The islamic terrorist had written a pamflet with her name on it and a couple of other public figures. He stabbed the pamflet with a knife to the body of Theo. He wanted to behead him, but when that failed, he simply stabbed him with two large knives.

Ironically, Theo van Gogh was making a movie on another well known politician (right winger Pim Fortuyn) who was also killed for his beliefs (he was killed by an animal rights protestor)


Really sad that this whole situation becoming messier every day, with small things blown out of proportion such as an incident in a school where 1 guy had the dutch flag on his schoolbag, causing the muslim kids to feel aggravated. The principal threatened to expell the guy if he wouldn't remove the flag.

Oh and by the way, our ' heritage' isn't too bad to let die: The VOC ( a worldwide merchant company, the world's first multinational so to say) brought the Dutch everywhere around the world, in fact the dutch once owned New York, but traded it in with Suriname talk about a million dollar deal duh..
Anyway, those 'merchants' came everywhere to trade and settled in various places like South Africa, Indonesia, Australia. They practically invented slavery and oppression, and fought back resistance with gruelling murders...

 

[The Monkey]

Why do you post four months old news?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Because according to newspaper here, that four month old news is still very new and happening. Are you offended?

 

[The Monkey]

Because according to newspaper here, that four month old news is still very new and happening. Are you offended?

Why of course not. I was simply asking.

Even if this is terrible, sometimes that's the price you have to pay if you give thousands of people a better life.

 

[Nofuture]

I`ve seen this Van Gog´s film (is a very short one) "Submission".

The murder of Van Gogh is indeed a terrible criminal act.

However, it must be said, that Van Gogh wasn´t a saint, he was, I suppose, a radical too. He had been insulting Jews, Feminists, Socialist, Muslims.
Hmm, he criticized oppression of Muslim women, but feminists were also not good enough for him, what did he want then at all?..

He called Muslims someone who f**** goats and he called the prophet Mohammed "a pedophilic raper".

This of cource can´t be a justification to kill him, but what have such insults to do with free speech at all??... It´s only a guess, if Van Gogh was sued for this, he would be alive now...

 

[kirovman]

What? A thread about old news?

Guess what? The United Kingdom has declared war on Germany!

Winston Churchill has delivered a speech!

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.

Patriotic tear ;( I'd fight right now for old Winnie. You ought to too.


-Where is this 'news' still happening? I haven't heard any more of it lately.
It's been a bit quiet in Netherlands lately. Please direct me.

 

[Kangy]

They are letting their heritage die with things like 'multiculturalism', and 'affirmative action' all the heralds of an advanced society right? Wrong, they are dilluting their heritage with mass immigration, then they find out the immigrants who come to their countries for prosperity hate their country and want to take it over. ****ing disgusting. Its happening to america too.

"My god. The world. It's full of... other people!"

 

[gh0st]

Oh and by the way, our ' heritage' isn't too bad to let die

Well thats your choice. If you cant take pride in your own culture, you better get ready to take pride in the one being self imposed upon you.

"My god. The world. It's full of... other people!"

Since when does that mean you have to sit by and watch your culture become diluted into nothing?

 

[Kangy]

It dosn't mean that, but y'know, maybe I have this idea that perhaps these people really have, gosh, something worth sharing in. Perhaps, get this, they're not here to warp my mind and steal my thoughts. By god! What if they acually respected the culture already in place, and wanted to add to it? Why, there'd be so much to learn, to celebrate!

Nah, don't be silly. Let's all just stick to being closed-minded xenophobes.

 

[gh0st]

It dosn't mean that, but y'know, maybe I have this idea that perhaps these people really have, gosh, something worth sharing in. Perhaps, get this, they're not here to warp my mind and steal my thoughts. By god! What if they acually respected the culture already in place, and wanted to add to it? Why, there'd be so much to learn, to celebrate!

Nah, don't be silly. Let's all just stick to being closed-minded xenophobes.

Hmm... I'm beginning to understand finally. When somebody wants to IMPOSE themselves upon you by burning churches and murdering people they have something worth sharing in. When I reject that invasion, I'm a close-minded xenophobe. Interesting. No, they certainly arent there to warp my mind and steal my thoughts. Look at the violence in france and other european countries. Thats why you dont have open immigration.

What if they acually respected the culture already in place, and wanted to add to it? Why, there'd be so much to learn, to celebrate!

Well no shit. If they respected it there wouldnt be an argument would there. But theres no respect.

 

[kirovman]

When did they start burning churches in Europe?

The church near where I am living is still standing, 300 years old probably, and the community around here is very Arabic.

The only violence I heard of here was white boys with knives and guns though.

Anti-Social people are becoming a problem in the UK though, it's the charver culture. No respect for other people. -nothing to do with multi-culturalism though. These people are indigenous, and often living in isolated communities. Like rednecks, maybe.

 

[gh0st]

http://www.globalengage.org/issues/2005/02/dutch.htm

 

[baxter]

I guess my question now to the European members of the forum is, WHATS GOING ON OVER THERE?

I'm sorry have I missed the point here, are you genuinely having a go at Europe. I can only assume from your posting that you are some how taking the moral high ground. I could quite easily search around the net and bring up any countries darkest histories including yours.
I can only assume your comments are made in guest as nobody would wish to start an America/europe discussion regardinging the moral standing of our continnetnts.

Because according to newspaper here, that four month old news is still very new and happening. Are you offended?

Yes it is offensive and uncalled for. Maybe you should take the time to think rather than writing and singling out snap shots of our history.
This threat is not funny or laughable.

 

[gh0st]

Yes it is offensive and uncalled for. Maybe you should take the time to think rather than writing and singling out snap shots of our history.
This threat is not funny or laughable.

Hehehe. I'm glad somebody see's the threat. Unfortunatly your angst is a little uncalled for, he meant no harm to your continent, he's just pointing out a problem that needs fixing, much like kmack (sometimes) does. I just laugh because most of the time its europeans having a go at America and taking the moral high ground, especially around here.

 

[baxter]

Hehehe. I'm glad somebody see's the threat. Unfortunatly your angst is a little uncalled for, he meant no harm to your continent, he's just pointing out a problem that needs fixing, much like kmack (sometimes) does. I just laugh because most of the time its europeans having a go at America and taking the moral high ground, especially around here

LOL ,time to chill out and stop bashing each other

 

[Scoobnfl]

I guess my question now to the European members of the forum is, WHATS GOING ON OVER THERE? :O

sounds startlingly similar to 1930's germany, only much worse because it's occurring in many nations not just one.

europe and the USA turned their backs on the jews in the 1930's what's to keep them from doing it again in the future?

 

[Nofuture]

Hmm... I'm beginning to understand finally. When somebody wants to IMPOSE themselves upon you by burning churches and murdering people they have something worth sharing in. When I reject that invasion, I'm a close-minded xenophobe. Interesting. No, they certainly arent there to warp my mind and steal my thoughts. Look at the violence in france and other european countries. Thats why you dont have open immigration.

You are wrong here. Didn´t you read your own source?

"Just days after the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim extremist, Dutch youth retaliated by burning mosques." Predictably, Muslims retaliated to the retaliation by burning churches.

"The sad truth is that van Gogh's murder was foreseeable. As a harsh critic of all things religious, he took great pleasure in denigrating Muslims at every opportunity; he was intentionally inflammatory."


More about a racist Van Gogh:

http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Latest/Vangogh.html

"Van Gogh on migrants from Muslim countries
As I said, Van Gogh routinely substituted "goatf***er" for "immigrant to the Netherlands from an Islamic country". In his book Allah Knows Best (2001) he wrote: "There is a Fifth Column of goatf***ers in this country, who despise and spit at its native people. They hate our freedom." "Soon, the Fifth Column of goatf***ers will hurl poison gas, diseases and atomic bombs at your children and my children."


Oh, I see he was sued. Because of his antisemitism:

"Van Gogh on Jews
"Fornicating yellow stars in a gas chamber.... What a smell of caramel today. Today the crematoriums burn only diabetic [in Dutch literally: sugar-sick] Jews". Thus van Gogh in Moviola magazine, 1991. The court then fined him 1000 guilders for anti-semitism.

He pictured Jewish TV presenter Sonja Barend in a concentration camp, and Jewish author Leon de Winter in "Treblinka-style fornication with barbed wire around his dick". When Jewish historian Evelien Gans criticised Van Gogh, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: "I suspect that Ms Gans gets wet dreams about being ****ed by Dr Mengele." He hoped (Volkskrant, February 1995) Gans would sue him: "Because then Ms Gans will have to explain in court that she claims that she does not get wet dreams about Dr Mengele."

http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/features/amsterdamforum/islamresponse
Gary Cooper, London, UK: "The criticism that comes from people like Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is based on hate, it is in no way constructive. It would be classed as racist in the UK; with freedom of speech also come the freedom to insult and Van Gogh's and Hirsi Ali's criticisms are racist insults. Now don't get me wrong the issues concerning the abuse of women in any society needs to be shown, confronted and dealt with, but how is Van Gogh's and Hirsi Ali's film [Submission] objective, when VG call's Islam ‘religious fascism.'"



After the murder of Van Gogh there was an inadequate reaction:

"The main immediate effect of it has been a further racist backlash in the Netherlands, with an Islamic primary school in Eindhoven fire-bombed for the fourth time, and mosques and buildings of secular Moroccan immigrant organisations attacked at night. Very many Dutch Moroccans participated in, and/or organised, protests against the murder of Van Gogh. However, that did not impress the bigots. Vice Prime Minister Zalm (VVD) declared, in George W. Bush style, "war on extreme Islam"."

 

[Pericolos0]

so theres a few black sheep in the islam population that cause an extreme ammount of xenophobia over here. The murder of van gogh is really not justifiable in any way, and is pretty much an assault on free speech. What you probably didnt hear is how on the days following the murder dutch muslims massively went to the streets and protested to what happened, condemning the murder.
I guess the biggest problems now are how they are stigmatized, and how alot of the average people see islam as an extreme threath to their freedom. Ofcourse, when you look at the situation objectively, you'd see this isnt true, and that muslims are slightly on blending in with western society. But unfortunately, as in every community, the black sheep still exist, and extreme right winged parties are using this as an argument that islam has to be fought fiercly. All their populist hate talk is doing is making the problem worse , theyre just adding fuel to the fire. Eventhough all parties agree that terrorism has to be fought, and that the extremism has to be taken out, the extreme right winged party is using this to defend their racist ideas, focusing on an entire group of people.
Thats the most scary thing going on in europe atm. The extreme right winged parties gaining power.

funny thing is though, most of these extreme right winged parties arn't really as right as the american republicans . Its just that the political spectrum is abit different in europe

 

[Pericolos0]

just to quote from the article gh0st posted:

The future of European secularism is multiculturalism on a continental scale. A liberal secular Europe surrounded by Muslims in North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. This is the dream of Osama bin Laden, and it is only being helped by those Europeans who believe Muslims and Europeans cannot live together in an integrated society. For this same reason, the EU should welcome Turkey with open arms. A Muslim nation who is fully integrated in the EU will put the lie to the claim that Islam and freedom are necessarily incompatible.

thats pretty much what should happen

 

[Nofuture]

I am a European who does believe that Muslims and Europeans can live together in an integrated society.

But I don´t think that a proof of this is the reason enough the Turkey should become a member of EU.

For this same reason, the EU should welcome Turkey with open arms. A Muslim nation who is fully integrated in the EU will put the lie to the claim that Islam and freedom are necessarily incompatible.

I don´t think that countries such as Turkey, Ukraine and Belarus are Europe. A membership in EU, which shares the European idea, must be justified by historical, cultural, geographical, political, institutional, economical aspects.

 

[Kangy]

My beef with Turkey is Cyprus. They pretty much butchered it, and still aren' really trying hard enough to get it sorted.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Well thats your choice. If you cant take pride in your own culture, you better get ready to take pride in the one being self imposed upon you.

This has nothing to do with pride and heritage. It has to do with morals and values and respect for each culture. The Dutch have always been a melting pot of different cultures. In fact, America is one big melting pot of cultures, races and beliefs, whether you like it or not. You have to accept the fact that those 'other' people are there to stay.

Accepting that fact is the beginning of a dialogue with eachother. Yes I'm al for multiculturalism and tolerance, within certain boundaries. If immigrants refuse to learn the language and participate in society, they are not welcome.

Your opinion sounds really rednecked, no offence intended, but how can you take pride in your heritage if you ignore the fact that America was built by immigrants?

 

[KoreBolteR]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm



http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005861.php



Simply terrible. In other news:

http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/summaries/ob160sum.htm



Hate crimes in the Netherlands is on the rise ...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-22-jews-france_x.htm



Nothing I had ever known before -- nothing we were ever told.

http://www.iht.com/articles/530161.html



Anti-Semitism is on the rise according to this study

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/as_france.asp

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1079410302600



I guess my question now to the European members of the forum is, WHATS GOING ON OVER THERE? :O

are you classing us brits aswell? or just mainland Europe?

 

[Recoil]

are you classing us brits aswell? or just mainland Europe?

What's the (big) difference?

 

[Nofuture]

PARIS France to Ariel Sharon: You should keep quiet.

An excellent idea, btw.

Some "brilliant" Sharon quotes:

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

 

[PvtRyan]

Yeah, we're such a "country torn apart by violence" (Fox News)...

Some exaggeration, the problem we have with other ethnicities doesn't have much to do with Islam and can't be called terrorism either. It's true that we have a lot of problems with especially Maroccans, but that has little to do with the religion they embrace (the youth is only Muslim if the occasion requires it) and more with general integration and commitment to soceity.

When you're such a ranting blabber mouth as Theo was, you shouldn't be surprised at all when some nutjobs decide they don't like you a great deal. Not that it's justified in any way to kill him, but it's simply reality. You still have freedom of speech, but you also need to accept that there's always some asshole out there.
You don't light a fire in the gunpowder room as a minister here said.