What's going on with reflections?

[Varsity]

I'm going to quote a couple of e-mails in the info from Valve thread:

From: Tom Edwards [mailto:blank]
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:04 AM
To: Marc Laidlaw
Subject: Mirrors in HL2

Marc, I read the e-mail you wrote about the 'breencasts' and it made me wonder: what happens if you point the camera at yourself? Will Gordon appear on the screen? I can't decide if it would be cool or blasphemous (or both!) to finally see Gordon in the game. ;-)

Wishing you luck, Tom Edwards

If you do that, Uroboros swallows his tail all the way and the world ends.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jani Kivela [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:40 AM
To: Rick Ellis
Subject: Hi Rick!

I have question about Half-Life 2, so if you have some time to answer me.

Can we see Gordon from mirrors, from screens where camera is pointed at
Gordon and picture comes to that screen or from reflective object etc.?

Thanks for your time and keep up that good working!

-Jani-

No, you'll have to keep Gordon's image in your head... At least for
now...

Rick
Valve

What the hell do these two mails mean? That the game crashes when you look in a mirror/camera? That Gordon is vampire-like and doesn't have a reflection? That you fight an army of Gordon clones in HL3? :|

 

[Crushenator 500]

it means you cant see gordons reflection in the game....

 

[PatPwnt]

When you look at a screen of yourself, you are suppose to imagine what you look like... what gordon looks like he is feeling or if he is missing an eye or whatever... It's really not that big of deal to not see a reflection. But, it would still be neat to see him.

 

[Varsity]

it means you cant see gordons reflection in the game....

That's just stupid. You can see his face on the front of the box, why not show his reflection?

 

[Dead-Inside]

It's pretty simple. You're Gordon. Imagine him any way you like him. He doesn't need to look like you, but you certainly know how he looks, noone else knows. (He might even have a nekkid hole in his HEV for his, you know, package, if you're in to that stuff... But that certainly isn't how he looks for me)

 

[smwScott]

I have a feeling that if there's ever a mirror or a camera in the game that allows us to see ourselves, then Gordon's face will most likely be covered by the HEV suit. If they were going to let you see what he looked like then they might as well put in third person cutscenes too.

 

[DarkStar]

Yo Dead-Inside, your signature is kind of annoying.

 

[SLH]

[sarcasm]I guess the first one (about Uroboros) meens that if you had 2 mirrors facing each other, and you looked in one, so you could see the other in it's reflection, that reflected mirror wouldn't itself make another reflection. i.e. you'll only get 1 mirror image in a given room regardless of the number of mirrors.[/sarcasm]

 

[AcousticToad]

That's just stupid. You can see his face on the front of the box, why not show his reflection?

I agree, we have also saw him in OF and BS, not to mention HL multiplayer and various mods, so why not just point a camera at him...oooh just for tests, when the games out im gonna make a house of mirrors mwhahaha, no goatee scientist can survive the horrors of himself multiple times (Not an inuendo BTW)

 

[SMT]

Well, we know it's not necessarily an engine limitation. Even Deus Ex had accurate model and bsp reflections, and it wasn't exactly the most graphically advanced game ever...

I think this is a clever and unique design decision on the part of Valve, and I think it really did add to the immersion factor of Half-Life. I mean, during the resonance cascade, when the lights went out and your heard the breathing and heartbeat, you felt like it was your breath and your heartbeat. But to use the Deus Ex example again, when I first saw JC Denton's reflection in the floor of the UNATCO building, I didn't feel like I was JC; I felt like I was merely controlling JC.

That's my two cents, anyway. I'm fine with no reflection of Gordon in Half-Life 2.

 

[Crushenator 500]

That's just stupid. You can see his face on the front of the box, why not show his reflection?

how the hell do we know, email valve if it bothers you that much.
btw, gordon's not on the box if you get the alyx or g-man version

 

[KurtCobain]

Ye death-insider thats starting to annoying me too, mayb if u made it smaller lol

 

[Mr. Redundant]

theres gotta be a Gordon model though.. right?
at least for mp right?......

the "at least not yet" makes me wonder if they even have a gordon model as of now

 

[KurtCobain]

I dnt think its a big deal , im guessing there wont be many/if any mirrors in the game unless there modded in.

Not a big deal if u dnt see his reflection, we all know what he looks like.

 

[Gorgon]

its nice to see Gordon's model with the new engine.

 

[[sl@yer]]

I dnt think its a big deal , im guessing there wont be many/if any mirrors in the game unless there modded in.

Not a big deal if u dnt see his reflection, we all know what he looks like.

But what about water.....everything else reflects in the water so well.......so it would be stupid if you couldn't see yourself.

 

[KurtCobain]

MP culd have resistance fighter instead of lots of Gordon's running around...we never know..culd be combines...culd have alien bots aswell....could have anything lmao

 

[Lucifer]

But what about water.....everything else reflects in the water so well.......so it would be stupid if you couldn't see yourself.

Well...you cant :E
It must be something do with that angle you are looking to water or something like that.

 

[[sl@yer]]

Well...you cant :E
It must be something do with that angle you are looking to water or something like that.

But we don't know. Have Valve actually confirmed that there will be no reflections? They've been kind of vague.....I don't really see what's being achieved by having no reflections....it only detracts from the realism present everywhere else.

 

[Bicka]

Its funny. In half-life1 the main reason you never saw yourself was because of the limitations in the engine. It wasn't practical to give Gordon a playermodel because there was never a situation where you would see yourself projected back.

Now in HL2 they've got the technology to do this but for some reason they've decided not to. Maybe its to keep the loyal fans happy? Maybe they took the 'Makes you feel like your actually playing the game' to far?

I'm betting that if you go through the videos, and check out the areas with water closely, you'll notice reflections of npc's, monsters and vehicles. Really is a shame not to see Gordon in this one.
His playermodel will be in the game no doubt for multiplayer (I can't see them getting rid of classic HL1 deathmatch) so I guess I'll have to wait till some guy goes afk before I get a good look!

 

[KagePrototype]

Now in HL2 they've got the technology to do this but for some reason they've decided not to. Maybe its to keep the loyal fans happy? Maybe they took the 'Makes you feel like your actually playing the game' to far?

How are they taking it too far? It's not as if an idea like this can be blown out of proportion in the first place. If you were to see Gordon at all during the game, it would distance the player from the game and make it less immersive, and thus not as good an experience. It's all rather simple.

 

[Apos]

Maybe he should be all blurred out?

 

[[sl@yer]]

How are they taking it too far? It's not as if an idea like this can be blown out of proportion in the first place. If you were to see Gordon at all during the game, it would distance the player from the game and make it less immersive, and thus not as good an experience. It's all rather simple.

I disagree. Not seeing his reflection will continue to frustrate me throughout the game, taking me out of the immersive experience. I would rather see gordon's reflection, as it would be realistic and graphically impressive.

 

[aku ankka]

Besides, reflections have allways looked silly and unrealistic in games (of course when the player is in control and not the AI). Players only use mirrors to play around and do tricks. They´re distracting and thus decrease immersion. It´s not like gordys invisible, there just wont be any reflections.

 

[moppe]

Seeing the reflection in shallow water would be impossible.
To get a reflection in water, the standard angel must be 49 or over.

 

[aku ankka]

Maybe we´ll just see some security footage of Gordon (like when those cameras took pictures of him). That should satisfy you.

 

[aku ankka]

It´s not like gordys invisible, there just wont be any reflections.

What am I talking about? Of course he´s invisible, hah.

 

[[sl@yer]]

Besides, reflections have allways looked silly and unrealistic in games (of course when the player is in control and not the AI). Players only use mirrors to play around and do tricks. They´re distracting and thus decrease immersion. It´s not like gordys invisible, there just wont be any reflections.

Max Payne 2's reflections were good.
I can see how it would be distracting, but other objects are reflected....so in order to be realistic, it should be consistent in that people should also be reflected. It's not a big deal, and I'm sure when we get the game no one's going to care.

 

[aku ankka]

Okay, time for sleep.

 

[aku ankka]

Max Payne 2's reflections were good.
I can see how it would be distracting, but other objects are reflected....so in order to be realistic, it should be consistent in that people should also be reflected. It's not a big deal, and I'm sure when we get the game no one's going to care.

I meant that it´s just a gimmick. You don´t jump and whirl in front mirrors. Do you? :dork:

 

[Varsity]

Seeing the reflection in shallow water would be impossible.
To get a reflection in water, the standard angel must be 49 or over.

I think you mean refraction. If you walked over some water and looked straight down, you would expect to see your relection.

 

[wayne white]

you cant see yourself in a mirror?...vampire:the masquerade:gordon's bloodlines.

 

[[sl@yer]]

I meant that it´s just a gimmick. You don´t jump and whirl in front mirrors. Do you? :dork:

What.....? I said that it doesn't matter! I was merely saying that it would fit in with the realistic environment if there were reflections.

 

[KagePrototype]

I disagree. Not seeing his reflection will continue to frustrate me throughout the game, taking me out of the immersive experience. I would rather see gordon's reflection, as it would be realistic and graphically impressive.

Haha, I sincerly doubt your inability to see a reflection of Gordon in Half-Life 2 will dampen your gaming experience. You might be dissapointed, but I doubt it'll lessen the game's value at all. Besides, it worked in the first game, why not in HL2?

 

[[sl@yer]]

Haha, I sincerly doubt you're inability to see a reflection of Gordon in Half-Life 2 will dampen your gaming experience. You might be dissapointed, but I doubt it'll lessen the game's value at all. Besides, it worked in the first game, why not in HL2?

Please see my posts following on from this, considering that this was my point. It's dissappointing but not a big deal when the game's concerned.

 

[KagePrototype]

Sorry, i didn't read them. I just found it funny how you'd find it "continually frustrating", as if it's the only thing you'd be looking for in the game.

 

[Varsity]

Besides, it worked in the first game, why not in HL2?

There were no mirrors in the first game, thus no illusions to shatter by not including Gordon in them.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The main reason that you can't see your own reflection would be that it would show limitations in the engine and force Valve to do a lot of extra unecessary work.

First of all, look in a mirror right now. As you look around slightly, your eyes are in constant motion. You might make a face or two. Smile, frown. Wave your hand.

However, in-game, your reflection wouldn't be able to do any of those things. You'd just be looking at a zombie of Gordon, who would be staring straight ahead and moving only his legs and arms.

In order to have a true "realistic" reflection, Valve would have to fully animate the Gordon player model with greater detail, sync up the view models with it, and give it a way to mimic the eye positions and emotions of the player.

All just so that you can look in a mirror.

 

[[sl@yer]]

Sorry, i didn't read them. I just found it funny how you'd find it "continually frustrating", as if it's the only thing you'd be looking for in the game.

It's what I've been looking forward to all this time. Who cares about the striders or the manipulator, I really wanted to jump around in front of mirrors and cameras for hours on end (in the game that is....ahem).

 

[Lobster]

everygame that gives the player a reflection, im thinking of Deus Ex here, the animations > your movements look absaloutly gay, and its not worth it :O