What's up with Soldiers?

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Bodyrox

Guest
What's up with soldiers?

They clearly have advantage over all other classes.

In all the statistics I have seen, the Soldier has twice as much kills with his Rocket Launcher than any other class with their weapons.

So tell me, was the Soldier designed to have the advantage over all the other classes or is he overpowered and should there something be done about it?


Soldier’s advantages over a:

Spy. Soldier is hard to backstab but he can easily kill a spy even if a Spy goes to cloak mode. Soldier just starts to spam everywhere and usually gets a kill.

Sniper. His worst enemy is clearly a Soldier. Soldier never can be killed by one headshot, and you never have a chance for another one, because Soldier starts to spam his rockets towards you and if you stay still trying to focus, he'll definitely kill you.

Engineer. While a sentry gun has a limited range of fire, a Soldier's rocket from any distance can go infinitely thus having advantage over enginner.

Heavy. His biggest enemy maybe a Demoman, but the second biggest is definitely a Soldier. While minigun is useless at long range because of its bullets spread, a Soldiers rocket, as I mentioned before, can go infinitely and linear.

Demoman. Although Soldier's rocket goes in a straight line while Demoman's grenade launcher's accuracy is poor and sticky bombs can be taken out of the way by launching a rocket at them or shooting with a shotgun, it is the only class that has a possibility defeating a Soldier.

Pyro. Everyone knows that his biggest enemy is Soldier. Flamethrower has a limited range, so Soldier can simply shoot at the ground to get a kill.

Scout. Even though he has double-jump ability which is supposed to be used to evade rockets, he has to be close to use his scattergun. And when he gets close, Soldier can simply shoot at the ground like with the Pyro to kill a Scout. And yes, Scout does have a pistol for long range shooting, but it will run out of ammo before he even takes half of Soldier's health.


Of course it all comes down to the skill of a player. You can take out a Soldier with a bonesaw if he's not very smart. But when skill is put aside, he is the most powerful.
 
Soldiers can be a real pain in the ass...as any class can. My problem with them, which is more so just bad luck for me is that it seems like every game I play I'm battling the team that has 80% soldiers. Gets annoying ;)
 
Most of the Soldier's main weaknesses were built into his weapon, with its slow reload time and low 'clip' count. Add to that the fact that he is a slow-moving class, and you have something that should balance it out.

*something about crockets here*
 
When you put it like that, I'm inclined to agree.
 
VolkenM said:
Most of the Soldier's main weaknesses were built into his weapon, with its slow reload time and low 'clip' count. Add to that the fact that he is a slow-moving class, and you have something that should balance it out.

*something about crockets here*
Click to expand...

Not to mention that although rockets travel infinitely, even a heavy can easily dodge them at range...
 
Spy: the soldier is still considerably slower than the spy, which makes for an easy stab unless the soldier is contantly watching his back. At range the spy has an advantage since his gun is very accurate and the rockets aren't.

Sniper: charge the shot or headshot followed by bodyshot. Rockets can be dodged at range quite easily.

Engineer: soldier is one of the better classes for taking down sentries, however good placement of the sentry and vigilance by the engineer can help against it.

Heavy: He's not meant to fight at close range, although I feel that at a medium range the soldier does have an advantage he shouldn't sometimes.

Demoman: The grenades take getting used to, and stickies don't always have to be used in traps. However, both hit pretty damn hard once you can land hits with them.

Pyro: Dodge around the soldier, but soldiers do have the edge over pyros if they have a fully loaded rocket launcher.

Scout: Likewise, moving in ways the soldier doesn't expect is key, although hard to pull off sometimes.

I agree that teams with lots of soldiers, especially with medics, is very hard to play against since the soldier is a versatile class.
 
My own experience with soldiers (as a medic) is that at distance, they're cake - their rockets are very easy to dodge. Up close, Pyros and Heavies usually seem to take them out no prob - maybe I've been lucky? They move slow too. I think the reason stats are skewed towards the soldiers is that a lot of people play them and they're relatively easier to get kills/destruction with than other classes (I'm surprised that Demomen aren't at the top myself). This is in general - you get anyone who's an ace and they'll take soldiers no problem. I've personally seen some good Scouts that could take out Soldiers and Heavies at close range.
 
Its easy to take out a soldier with a sniper. Aslong as you dont have a retarded hand that has frequent spasms (which if you did you wouldnt play the game let alone the sniper class) - you're fine.
 
Sniper can kill anyone with a half-charged shot to the head.

The only exceptions are a healed soldier and healthy heavy.

Oh and pyros are 99% useless against soldiers. Unless they're retarded or you get them from behind.
 
I belive that all the classes are evenly balanced and rockets are easy to dodge and travel really slow. If the soldier doesn't kill you with the 4 rockets he has you can just run and shoot him
 
No whining about crit rockets?

This thread makes me suspicious, it may actually have a point...or not.
 
Now that I know how to spot critical rockets, they're actually kind of fun.
 
I'll betray myself by exposing the soldier's weaknesses.

Spy: If you can't get a backstab on a soldier, it isn't because of any strengths of the soldier or weaknesses in the spy. It's because of you. The spy is meant to be played stealthily...this DOES NOT mean "Disguise as an enemy class, scream 'Medic!' and hope the enemy doesn't recognize me for what I am." Maximize your cloak and your ability to get into places people are unlikely to check; wait for them to pass, stab. Also, soldiers are more likely to check for spies at long range with the shotgun rather than a rocket, and definately never at close range with a rocket. Just be sure not to bump into the soldier (spies can't go through enemy teammates) and you'll be fine. Soldiers rarely check, in my experience.

Sniper: A fully-charged headshot WILL kill a soldier. The trick to avoiding a soldier's long range rockets? A and D. Strafe left and right; it's that simple. I'll tell you another thing: at long distance, a sniper is a SOLDIER'S worst enemy, because the soldier is in the mindset, "Kill the sniper before he gets a chance to shoot me. If he shoots me, I'm dead/have to go back for health/have to accept assaulting the base not at full HP." The soldier is wary of the sniper, even frightened. A sniper that calmly dodges a soldier's rockets and puts a few potshots into him will send a soldier running for cover, GUARANTEED.

And if you're thinking, "How do I dodge rockets if he spams them at me?" There's two patterns to rocket spam: fire and forget and calculated. Fire and forget is going to be four rockets coming at the exact same area, easily dodged. Calculated's firing one or two rockets to get an enemy to move, essentially baiting them, and then firing the remaining ones in a line AHEAD of the enemy, designed to intercept them. At far range, no problem against either of those: just move counter the way they're coming. At medium range, calculated might surprise you, so WATCH THE SECOND AND THIRD ROCKET. Those are the indicators! A great way to counter this type of spam at either distance is to:

1. Constantly strafe in one direction. Say rockets are coming toward you, you go left. KEEP GOING LEFT. The soldier's going to anticipate the movement and start shooting left ahead of your path.
2. Juke and reverse direction as the rockets go further left, as anticipated. Take one or two steps right, boom, shoot the soldier. He's probably stopped moving in order to line up a better shot. You might even get him before he gets off the third rocket.

Engineer: Sentry placement is important. As much as possible, DO NOT BUILD WHERE A CORNER WILL SHIELD THE SOLDIER. DO NOT BUILD CLOSE TO A CORNER, EVER. A soldier can stand around the corner and fire rockets at the floor near your SG, allowing splash damage to kill it without any risk to himself. Build SGs at choke points where a soldier must pass, build SGs on high terrain if possible, and the best place to put an SG is down a long corridor where there is little to no cover. Ctf_turbine comes to mind, with its long hall to the enemy intel. I had a bout there the other night against some engineers; anything they placed that I could spy around the corner, gone. Anything that I actually had to step into the hall for, that was difficult.

Yesterday too I was playing Orange_x, and the engies had all these SGs set up on inclines where I HAD to go up to shoot them, and that was difficult. If you can get a friendly engy to hang out with you, stage your SGs in places where they cover each other from likely positions of entry.

Heavy: You want the simple answer? Get close.

Other simple answers: Don't fight a soldier alone at any distance EXCEPT close. And even then, unadvisable.

Having a medic with you is always nice.

Having a demoman with you is nicer. People don't know about the heavy/demo team, and how it will bone a soldier.

The heavy isn't meant to take on a soldier at medium range. The heavy isn't meant to take on ANYBODY at long range. Your best bet is always at close range because a soldier's worst range is close. Yes, you read that right, and I'll bring it up again soon. At medium range though, the only time the odds will be in your favor are if you're full health, the soldier is coming toward you (not vice-versa), and you've already started up your gun. In that instance, it might be preferable for you to actually maintain the distance between you and the soldier, and keep your gun trained on him. You might win.

Demoman: You're actually wrong on this one. When I see a lone demoman squaring off against me, there's absolutely NO FEAR that I should EVER be defeated by this pipe-launching cyclops. You're also wrong that a demoman has "poor accuracy"; that's skill-dependent, not a property of the class.

And I suppose it's also skill-dependent of the soldier you're fighting as well, if you can successfully spam pipes in a way to trap the soldier's movement and get him to step onto one. Try using sticky bombs at close range, and pipes at mid-to-long range. I mentioned the heavy/demo combo earlier; it works so well because the soldier's movements become preoccupied dodging pipes while his fire will be concentrated on the heavy. Sooner or later he'll probably slip up with his attention divided.

But a demoman on his own? Not unless you play it clever and pipe (sticky) areas that the soldier can't blast your bombs out of the way, or even places he might anticipate a setup. Stealthy's a better way to go than trying to engage a soldier in a one-on-one fight. Let's face it, trying to engage almost ANYBODY in a one-on-one fight as a demoman is probably a recipe for suicide because--and I say this with no disrespect meant--your class f*cking SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS for fighting. No, really. If you go into a battle as a demoman thinking you're going to be ballsy and take people out with your spam, you are deluded. The only hope you have is that people will be clustered into a choke point with a low ceiling and you're shooting like your goal is wanton destruction, because in any other type of fight you are going down. Sorry, that's the way your class was built.

Pyro: His biggest enemy isn't the soldier. His biggest enemy is probably another pyro, but I'll leave that point for another day.

Yes, a soldier can shoot the ground and kill a pyro. Unless you're in my face spewing flames at me, moving left and right in an unorthodox manner forcing me to shoot the ground at my OWN feet, hoping to either:

A. Push you back, or
B. Kill you

In either case I'm going to be lit up AND low on health. If there is a medic by me, I will be fine. If there is a healthpack in the vicinity, I will be fine. But if there are neither of those things? Well, you probably killed me, or at least wounded me severely enough that someone ELSE will kill me, or that I at least have to run back to my base to get health, delaying my attack.

Also, what kind of idiot tries to use a flamethrower at long range? You have a shotgun. You have a SHOTGUN. Which means that as you shotgun against a soldier, applying more focus to dodging his rockets, he's going to try and close the gap on you. Guess what you do then? And let's not forget that when a class is on fire they're slightly blinded, so just use an alternating tactic of long-med range shotgunning, flamethrower in close (circlestrafing with your slightly better speed), then BACK UP and lay in with the shotgun while he's blind. One-on-one, a pyro CAN kill a soldier, you just have to know what you're doing.

Scout: THIS. This is the bane of the soldier. You make it sound so easy, shooting the ground to kill a scout. Even using the tactic of shooting at your own feet, as with the pyro. WRONG.

First off, double jump. That's your problem. You don't evade with the double jump because you don't even NEED to jump twice, and once you DO jump twice I'm going to see that little aircloud sprite a scout produces, watch his movement, and boom, rocket where he's going to land. Now you're popped up into the air and I'm going to push you around at my whim like a rocket ragdoll.

How you beat a scout with a soldier is to utilize that marvelous speed you have. Speed to a soldier is already frightening because unlike all other classes you have the advantage of being able to outpace our rockets. The only time you don't look (very) threatening is when you're far away, when we think we can still plant a rocket at your feet and bounce you around. Jumping even once, or stopping, or juking will avoid that rocket. And then you're still coming toward us.

Now we're afraid. All we can see on the battlefield is you, and you look like a demon spawned from the darkest pits of hell, terrible and fast, coming at us with that stupid scattergun. And you get into our area of acceptable fighting range, and you will seriously wreck our shit. Soldier hates scout. Soldier HATES scout. Drill that into your head. We are afraid of you. We do not like you. You have a psychological advantage on us the minute we spot you coming toward us on the battlefield. Half your work's already done, because you put us in the position of, "OH MY GOD KILL HIM NOW JESUS SHIT HE'S COMING RIGHT FOR ME ROCKET ROCKET ROCKET BACKPEDDLE ARGH NO GOOD TOO FAST F*CK IT JUST RUN AWAY."

I've played soldier for ten years, dude. Ten years. To this very day, it takes all my nerve not to just basically drop my weapon and run shrieking like a bitch Martin Lawrence-style away from a scout. I hold my ground but I'm pissing my pants, and I'm a soldier from the wayback. You guys are terrifying, and now you have a weapon that does even WORSE damage to us than the nailgun from TFC!

Look, all you have to do to win the other half of the battle is keep moving and keep laying into us with the scattergun. Really, everything else from there is just skill and getting better at doing that, but that's the theory. That's your modus operandi, your bread and butter. You do that and you will f*ck up a soldier. Even if you don't kill him, you've aleady wounded and frightened him, and I guarantee that no matter who else is on the opposite team, no matter what forces, Death himself could be on the opposite team but the soldier will be looking for you. Always looking out for the scout.


There, I have betrayed our weaknesses. Go kill some soldiers.
 
Your posts are always awesome, Dark.

Add me on friends if you fancy a game, ID's samhl2, fun times shall be had.
 
I play irregularly because I need to jack a friend's computer to play it (I need to build myself a new comp soon), but I'll be sure to add you next time I'm there.

His ID's [Darkside]Greenkata.
 
You made him put Darkside in his ID?

Hardcore.

Edit: can't find that ID, is that his display name on it? Need the ID for it to add as a friend I think.
 
Sam-2k said:
Edit: can't find that ID, is that his display name on it? Need the ID for it to add as a friend I think.
Click to expand...
That's what's on the page. Search Greenkata; he's the only one. :)

Mine's [Darkside]Emperor, btw.
 
Write my history papers please Dark? :>
 
Darkside55 said:
That's what's on the page. Search Greenkata; he's the only one. :)

Mine's [Darkside]Emperor, btw.
Click to expand...

Didn't realise you could search the community stuff like that. Added you both for the lovely manlove.
 
A charged sniper shot kills a soldier even if he has a medic. It is possible to kill a soldier as a scout too, but hard if the soldier can aim.
 
spot on, darkside.

I'm interested in your reasoning of how a pyro is a pyro's worst enemy... Curious!
 
Plug said:
spot on, darkside.

I'm interested in your reasoning of how a pyro is a pyro's worst enemy... Curious!
Click to expand...

In my (admittedly limited) experience as a pyro I've found that as soon as an enemy pyro enters the fray you end up dangerously ignoring everything else while you play ring around the rosy with him, due to you being unable to set him on fire (people on fire aren't normally as big a threat since they are in "retreat, heath, medic, water, something!" mode.)
 
Yeah, pyros can only burn other pyros, not set them on fire.
 
Aah yes okay, i wasn't thinking of it like that. Pyro's my main class and i always considered other classes as far more dangerous.

With pyro vs pyro the shotgun is far more effective! Less dancing, more death.
 
Operational and Vectyr already touched on it, but yes, the reason pyros are their own class's worst enemy is because they can't be burned. Your flamethrower still does damage over time to another pyro, but only as long as the flame is touching him. Once you let up, the flame goes away.

So against every other class you have that benefit, whereas against another pyro you don't. You're right that shotgun is more effective, but a combination of shotgun and flamethrower works even better.
 
Therefore you'll be facing non-disorientated pyros. Luckily they generally die to a rocket to the face, so any soldier friends you have can help you out in that department.
 
I hate it when you're having fun burning a whole lot of enemies and there's always that one pyro standing there blasting you, and you can't risk changing to shotty to get him, 'cause you'll get pwnd by all the guys you were burning :(
 
Sam-2k said:
Spy: the soldier is still considerably slower than the spy, which makes for an easy stab unless the soldier is contantly watching his back. At range the spy has an advantage since his gun is very accurate and the rockets aren't.
Click to expand...

Damn you sam, you and your turn around and fire antics, ill get ye one day ONE DAY

Scout: Likewise, moving in ways the soldier doesn't expect is key, although hard to pull off sometimes.
Click to expand...
Yaus, thats how i pull it off on low ping servers
 
Most of the Soldier's main weaknesses were built into his weapon, with its slow reload time and low 'clip' count. Add to that the fact that he is a slow-moving class, and you have something that should balance it out.
Click to expand...

And yet somehow it doesn't.


I mainly play as a pyro, and feel I am overall proficient with him, and not too reliant on the flame thrower for kills, shotgun is a good wep too and all.

I just don't play much because everyone went Soldier.

Overpowered?, perhaps not, easy mode?, I would say so, and everyone seems to play it, takes the fun out of the game, so yeah, don't really play anymore.
 
Interestingly enough I don't see that many soldiers. And on top of that, few are the soldiers who know how to effectively use their class. On the whole, though, I see many many more of the other classes being used than soldier. In fact on any given server I find the class ratio to be fairly balanced.

Vectyr said:
I hate it when you're having fun burning a whole lot of enemies and there's always that one pyro standing there blasting you
Click to expand...
Oftentimes I just ignore the enemy pyro in the group and concentrate on burning everyone else. It's not like he can help them, so I'm guaranteed some burnings. If I'm still alive--or get an opportunity--I'll flame him.

Or bring out the axe. ;)
 
Darkside55 said:
Interestingly enough I don't see that many soldiers. And on top of that, few are the soldiers who know how to effectively use their class. On the whole, though, I see many many more of the other classes being used than soldier. In fact on any given server I find the class ratio to be fairly balanced.


Oftentimes I just ignore the enemy pyro in the group and concentrate on burning everyone else. It's not like he can help them, so I'm guaranteed some burnings. If I'm still alive--or get an opportunity--I'll flame him.

Or bring out the axe. ;)
Click to expand...

And strum a banging tune!.
 
I haven't actually tried the axe much, I guess it would make a good 'impossible last stand' weapon hehe.
 
It deals more damage faster than the flamethrower at close range, but doesn't, you know, set them on fire.
 
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