What's your opinion on the EU?

[theotherguy]

I'm doing a project for comparative government in which each member of the class takes on the persona of a specific member of British parliament so we can conduct a mock "question time" (which I think is hilarious, by the way, I wish the US congress did this). I am supposed to be David Cameron, conservative party leader, and I'm supposed to ask the prime minister about relations with the EU. I understand that there was supposed to be a treaty ratified by the UK on the EU, which the conservatives wanted a referendum on, but I don't quite understand the details.

So, for you real British people on these forums, what is your opinion on the EU? What is the general opinion of the Labour party and the conservative party?

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

The EU is fantastic. Our economy has grown significantly since we joined and there will never be another inter-european war because of it. Recently they opened a new train service that runs from here through france and belgium, etc.

I'm certain that eventually we will adopt the euro, though it may take a decade. The up and coming youth are in general more positive about the EU and the older generations.

As for the labour party, virtually every sane person in Britain loathes the labour party, because they have ****ed this country up so much. We have no border controls at all, youths can get acsess to guns, knives and drugs so easily in urban areas, they smash things up, throw bricks at emergancy serices, etc, housing prices are skyrocketing everywhere, we have more survelliance than any other country,and the army is detoiriating. Labour throws billions at the NHS and education services and most of it is wasted by burocrats. We're all just hoping that the incompitent assholes don't blow us up before the next election.

Yeah, you could say the labour party sucks.

(Also, LibDems ftw IMO).

 

[repiV]

The EU is about as undemocratic as you can get - an unelected government that has the power to override national laws. It seems that the eventual goal of many proponents is a federal EU government and the end of national sovreignty.
This treaty to which you refer, will amongst other things, allow British citizens to be tried by an EU court for denying the holocaust even though denying the holocaust is not a crime in Britain.
They force legislation upon us and there's nothing we can do about it. The difference between the EU and a dictatorship is almost academic.
For example, this year they are bringing in a new system of motorcycle licensing solely to "harmonise" with the EU. It involves an offroad section of the test in addition to the current road-based test, including maneuvers to swerve and avoid an obstacle (what, do they measure pass/fail rates in terms of who kills themselves?), amongst other things.
The kicker is that there are only about 50 sites in the entire country with enough space to conduct these ridiculous extended tests - many training companies will be put out of business, there will be a massive shortage of instructors, near-year long waits for test dates, and in some parts of the country you may have to travel over 100 miles just to take your test or practise for it. And it will be a whole lot more expensive, too.
This will soon be followed by a long and protracted licensing system which will not allow people to ride bigger bikes until they're 25 years old. Despite there being no correlation between engine size and accidents, and no similar system in place for car licensing. Despite cars being the real dangerous weapons on the road.
End result is probably as intended - deal a massive blow to the motorcycle industry and community.

**** the EU.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I like the economic bloc and space agency, don't like the rest.

 

[nurizeko]

The EU can burn in hell.

It needs to be disbanded.

I don't care if continental Europe is such a hopeless case that without the EU's offensive existance it would collapse, Britain doesn't need it.

I liked the parts about trade, the space agency, and the general cultural exchangeyness and European co-operation.


I don't like the rest.


Europe is a continent, not a country, and the EU becoming like one is artificial and totally ignores the fact Europe is most certainly not one culture, language and people.


Oh and the whole paper pushing unelected undemocratic stink of it makes me ill.

 

[theotherguy]

The EU is about as undemocratic as you can get - an unelected government that has the power to override national laws. It seems that the eventual goal of many proponents is a federal EU government and the end of national sovreignty.
This treaty to which you refer, will amongst other things, allow British citizens to be tried by an EU court for denying the holocaust even though denying the holocaust is not a crime in Britain.
They force legislation upon us and there's nothing we can do about it. The difference between the EU and a dictatorship is almost academic.
For example, this year they are bringing in a new system of motorcycle licensing solely to "harmonise" with the EU. It involves an offroad section of the test in addition to the current road-based test, including maneuvers to swerve and avoid an obstacle (what, do they measure pass/fail rates in terms of who kills themselves?), amongst other things.
The kicker is that there are only about 50 sites in the entire country with enough space to conduct these ridiculous extended tests - many training companies will be put out of business, there will be a massive shortage of instructors, near-year long waits for test dates, and in some parts of the country you may have to travel over 100 miles just to take your test or practise for it. And it will be a whole lot more expensive, too.
This will soon be followed by a long and protracted licensing system which will not allow people to ride bigger bikes until they're 25 years old. Despite there being no correlation between engine size and accidents, and no similar system in place for car licensing. Despite cars being the real dangerous weapons on the road.
End result is probably as intended - deal a massive blow to the motorcycle industry and community.

**** the EU.

Okay thanks, I assume you're a conservative? I'm supposed to drill the guy playing Gordon Brown about this most recent treaty, and any other plans the Labour party has with the EU.

If I'm not mistaken, the Labour party promised, but did not deliver a referendum on the treaty. Does this mean that it was promised that all of Britain would have a vote on it? I'm also gathering that this treaty had to do with an international constitution, which the conservatives do not like?

 

[Mr Stabby]

There was an EU constitution, which was rejected by France and the Netherlands, so we never had a chance of a referendum. The treaty is the same constitution under a new title, so we should have a referendum on it, in any sensibly run country. The labour government has decided that they like the treaty so are going a head with it, and there isn't a referendum, as the treaty is likely to be unpopular.

 

[repiV]

Okay thanks, I assume you're a conservative? I'm supposed to drill the guy playing Gordon Brown about this most recent treaty, and any other plans the Labour party has with the EU.

I guess I am, although I wouldn't say my political views are even remotely aligned with those of any political party in the UK at present. David Cameron is a populist, smooth-talking puppet devoid of substance exactly as Blair was, and he gains support by copying Labour.

If I'm not mistaken, the Labour party promised, but did not deliver a referendum on the treaty. Does this mean that it was promised that all of Britain would have a vote on it? I'm also gathering that this treaty had to do with an international constitution, which the conservatives do not like?

Yeah, that's what it means. They promised a referendum on the EU constitution - and to get out of that commitment, seeing as 80% of people would vote against it according to polls, they've just renamed it the EU Reform Treaty. It's the same exact thing, but with a different name.
It will hand over a vast amount more power to Brussels - including but not limited to the post of President, elected by heads of state rather than citizens, legal supremacy of the EU (so European law overrides national law in all cases), common defence policy...it's not too far off the concept of the United States of Europe.

 

[repiV]

There was an EU constitution, which was rejected by France and the Netherlands, so we never had a chance of a referendum. The treaty is the same constitution under a new title, so we should have a referendum on it, in any sensibly run country. The labour government has decided that they like the treaty so are going a head with it, and there isn't a referendum, as the treaty is likely to be unpopular.

Oy oy.

 

[Solaris]

I disagree, I think the EU is excellent. Also, the labor party is good too, in fact, I recently joined it.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I thought you were a communist?

 

[Eejit]

the post of President, elected by heads of state rather than citizens

Sounds a little like how the PM is chosen. He isn't directly elected to that post by the public. I guess you don't like that either? Seems to have worked reasonably well for several centuries.

 

[repiV]

Sounds a little like how the PM is chosen. He isn't directly elected to that post by the public. I guess you don't like that either? Seems to have worked reasonably well for several centuries.

We elect the political party, which is under most circumstances (Gordon Brown's succession notwithstanding), the same thing for all intents and purposes.
We have no say whatsoever on the EU.

 

[Tagaziel]

In Poland we elect the polish members of the European Parliament, isn't that the way everywhere else? Seems to me it was.

I love the European Union. Integration of Europe under a single, federate government is the only viable option for our survival.

Oh, and hate to break it to you guys, but EU's law has been overriding country laws ever since the beginning, so it's not like it's a recent eeeevul idea of Jew Illuminati Lizards running the EU.

**** the skeptics. Bring on the European Federation.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I disagree, I think the EU is excellent.

Yay.

Also, the labor party is good too

Even though they are responsible for the mess this country is in (to be fair, it is largely gordon brown, rather than the entire party)?

 

[kirovman]

Don't be silly. Gordon's collectivist socialist policies were sound, it's the fault of YOU [the general public] for not believing in him.

 

[Eejit]

We elect the political party, which is under most circumstances (Gordon Brown's succession notwithstanding), the same thing for all intents and purposes.
We have no say whatsoever on the EU.

Members of the European Parliament are elected directly by citizens of member states.
The Council of the European Union consists of Ministers from the Governments of member states - similar to the Cabinet within Britain.
The Commission members are appointed by the Council.

I would only consider that a dictatorship if the governments of member states were dictatorships.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Talks about the EU in Revelation.
At least, sort of. I take it to mean the EU in some ways.

 

[Insano]

It's time the EU decides if it wants to be a political power, or just an economic trade union. We need to come forward as one block in world issues and not be played out against eachother by Russia, US, etc.

 

[repiV]

Members of the European Parliament are elected directly by citizens of member states.
The Council of the European Union consists of Ministers from the Governments of member states - similar to the Cabinet within Britain.
The Commission members are appointed by the Council.

I would only consider that a dictatorship if the governments of member states were dictatorships.

Since when?
I don't ever remember being asked to elect MEPs.

I also fail to understand how any good can come from creating a European superstate. A transnational government can never be a representative government.

 

[Eejit]

Since when?
I don't ever remember being asked to elect MEPs.

I do. The EU elections were the only ones happening regularly in N.I. during the period Stormont was suspended could be a factor.

I also fail to understand how any good can come from creating a European superstate. A transnational government can never be a representative government.

You're contradicting yourself there. If it becomes a USA-like superstate then surely it will be just as representative as the USA is?

 

[repiV]

I do. The EU elections were the only ones happening regularly in N.I. during the period Stormont was suspended could be a factor.

Hmm, strange.

You're contradicting yourself there. If it becomes a USA-like superstate then surely it will be just as representative as the USA is?

The USA is not as representative as individual state governments would be. In fact, I daresay that the US civil war and the extreme divides in ideology currently evident within the country demonstrates the problems with such a system. We have no economic need to be part of the EU, either.
What on earth do we want to hand over our sovereignty for? Especially when the ideology of the rest of Europe differs so drastically from our own?

 

[Tagaziel]

The USA is not as representative as individual state governments would be. In fact, I daresay that the US civil war and the extreme divides in ideology currently evident within the country demonstrates the problems with such a system. We have no economic need to be part of the EU, either.
What on earth do we want to hand over our sovereignty for? Especially when the ideology of the rest of Europe differs so drastically from our own?

Economy. Military. Political power.

The days of the British Empire are long gone.

 

[repiV]

Economy.

The pound is a far stronger currency than the euro.
The continental approach of high taxes and government regulation over the economy will not do us any favours.

Military.

We have the best military in the world, and a close alliance with the most powerful military in the world.

Political power.

We are the second most influential nation in the world.

The days of the British Empire are long gone.

That doesn't mean we will benefit in any way, shape or form from the EU.

 

[Eejit]

The USA is not as representative as individual state governments would be. In fact, I daresay that the US civil war and the extreme divides in ideology currently evident within the country demonstrates the problems with such a system. We have no economic need to be part of the EU, either.
What on earth do we want to hand over our sovereignty for? Especially when the ideology of the rest of Europe differs so drastically from our own?

Well there's a difference between "not being representative" (implying not at all) as you originally said and "not being as representative as individual governments".

The fact is the public have voted in pro-EU governments for decades now. If the public thinks things are going too far they can just elect an anti-EU government.
If you personally think it's a bad idea, well you go ahead and vote based on the issue.

 

[nurizeko]

The days of the British Empire are long gone.

Really....oh...well, awfully sorry old chap, my own mistake, I shan't be giving you Continentals any more trouble.

*goes to sit down, sip some tea, and shut up like a good peasant, being what this that and all the Empire is gone, and Britain's self interest and own wants and needs suddenly cease to exist at the first uttering of a historical fact*


I think Europe would do perfectly fine without quite allot of the pointless dross the EU has built up over its many years of unchecked aspirations.


Call it an out-dated opinion, if that helps you, but I don't feel a government can satisfy a Briton from one end of Europe, to a Bulgarian other.

Too many languages, too many different cultures, social norms, judicial traditions, economic leanings, ideological and political preferences, to make any super state seem anything more then a superficial mask, created by those paranoid of returning to an antique history of conflict and with the paranoid notion that if we aren't all standing back to back with spears pointing out, then some outside force will somehow destroy us.



Bu hey, if they can convince folk that European is an actual nationality and they can erase all prior national loyalties, go for it.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Can someone explain to me the benefits of a centralized European political bloc, over what we had 30 years ago.

 

[Kula Meenur]

I lived in Ukraine until i moved to australia, it's pretty much the same there as everywhere else in the world


you gotta make a life to live it





i could rant, but i'm not gonna

 

[theotherguy]

I should note that the civil war was largely the result of a weak central government and too much state sovereignty. The importance of state sovereignty has greatly decreased since the 1930's, so much so that state governments preform only a fraction of the actions they performed between 1780's and 1930's. Also, the government we had before the US constitution (the Articles of Confederation) was very similar to the current EU government, and resulted in a nation which was on the brink of continual civil war, collapse, and economic disaster.

However, key differences between the EU and the early American confederation lie in the extreme cultural and lingual differences between the many nations of Europe, as well as the fact that many of the nations have been sovereign for over 1000 years, with their own cultures, languages and such. I do think though, that as globalization continues, the differences between European states will become less important and the idea of federating them will become more likely.

 

[The Monkey]

The EU is the best thing that has happened to this continent in many centuries.

We have the EU to thank that there hasn't been a war in Europe since WW2 (if you don't count the mess on the Balkans). People can travel, study, work and live whereever they want within the continent. The peoples of this great continent can join together and work for a greater future together.

Of course the EU has problems, but the solution to these aren't (like some people like to think) to disband the whole project, but rather work to improve it. Improvements have also been made over the last couple of time, so it can be done.

 

[ComradeBadger]

The EU is a particularly good thing, and a nessesity for economic competition with the US.

 

[Beerdude26]

It will hand over a vast amount more power to Brussels.

Damn right. Bow to your new Belgian overlords.

 

[kirovman]

I'm all for common trade areas and open borders for member citizens to travel and work freely.

I think it is in our interests to reach political consensus with member states as far as practically possible.

As for common currency, I think it is inevitable that we will join the Euro, but I'm not keen on our economic control mechanisms tying our hands when economic difficulty comes, such as being unable to set our own interest rates. Last time we tried to allign ourselves to join the Euro, the economy went to hell. See European Exchange Rate Mechanism.

I'm not sure about Federal Europe, I have mixed feelings. Part of me is enthusiastic about the idea of a common purpose and people, but another part of me is skeptical about the lack of control we will have over ourselves. If it's all in the name of good and what we hold dear, rather than evil or dither and gravy trains, then great.

 

[ríomhaire]

The EEC was a good idea (It's sure helped the Irish ecconomy a hell of a lot), but I simply don't trust the EU messing in politics and making laws for all member states, but I am mostly ignorant on the EU's actual powers and functions.

 

[Insano]

Damn right. Bow to your new Belgian overlords.

Belgium is way overrated.

Flanders > Belgium

 

[kirovman]

Flanders addressing Belgium:

Hi-diddly-o, neighbourino!

 

[nurizeko]

Of course the EU has problems, but the solution to these aren't (like some people like to think) to disband the whole project, but rather work to improve it. Improvements have also been made over the last couple of time, so it can be done.

But it hasn't improved, it did all the good things, then suddenly it was presented with the act of simply being, and some noobtards in the EU obviously weren't happy with merely being "Gardeners", merely trimming and looking after the "Garden" and got stupid ambitions for all sorts of idiotic ideas, so started running amok adding things to the "Garden" that the "Garden" didn't need so before you know it the place is overgrown and ugly and a right mess.


In my opinion the EU long ago passed acceptable limits. It blatantly has ambitions it shouldn't.

Most other international/regional organizations seem perfectly capable of being just that, organizations, lose associations, but the EU is blatantly gone gaga for this ambition of super-statehood and its not welcome.

And you just stated a point quite nicely. Those who support the EU, aside from the daydreaming fantasy of Swedish soldiers marching about in the great continental utopia competing with the US in some abstract super power world competition, as if European nations really need to compete like that, also mistakingly think that somehow without the EU, Europe would descend right back into end of the war 1945 style destruction.


Hey, thats great, cant blame them, at the surface its nice to imagine a unified Europe, just like its nice to imagine the United Federation of planets. But the reality is is that its fantasy.


What is good governance for a Swede or Italian or whoever is not good governance for me.

It also ignores human nature.

If EU nations are scared of separatist movements within their borders now after Kosovo, just imagine the very real and likely possibility of the chaos that would occur if the EU formally moved to statehood. It would be a ****ing mess.


Sorry but there is no happy ending to the EU's current direction. It needs to stop, take a serious look at itself, cut back on its rampant sovereignty grasping, and return to a regional organization for the cooperation in certain areas it was originally meant to be.

The fact is the public have voted in pro-EU governments for decades now.

I've never been given the chance to vote of MEP's EVER. You cannot claim that the public has had that right and privilege when they haven't.

 

[Eejit]

I've never been given the chance to vote of MEP's EVER. You cannot claim that the public has had that right and privilege when they haven't.

I was actually talking about Pro-EU national governments as well as MEPs. I've voted in elections (This one), along with millions of others so nfc why you haven't been able to.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I've never been given the chance to vote of MEP's EVER. You cannot claim that the public has had that right and privilege when they haven't.

Yes, nobody has voted for MEP's ever. Nu-uh. Of course.

Why do you assume that everything is centered around you, and so of course if you haven't ever got the chance, no member of the public ever has?

 

[[Matt]]

The EU is a particularly good thing, and a nessesity for economic competition with the US.

Truth. What needs to change however is the fact that compared to the US system what we have here in terms of a European parliament is wholly undemocratic in comparison. The common citizens of the EU have no say in the election of an EU president or most of the bureaucrats in power. As such most of the EU wide laws now in place are enacted undemocratically which i find completely unfair. The EU needs to drastically change to give its citizens far more say in how its run via democratic means.