Which BLEEDING EDGE Feature is Valve Likely to add first?

[M1RAG3]

Just wondering what people's opinions are on which "feature" Valve will update HL2 with first, post-release of course)...

YOUR CHOICES:

1. SM 3.0 (Shader Model 3.0)

2. Parallax Mapping (Aspect of SM 3.0)

3. 64-Bit Optimizations

4. ULTRA-TEXTURES (ala Doom 3)

5. True HDRI Support (High-Dynamic Range Imaging)

6. Side-choice: Beta Phys-Gun (Blue Beam in E3 vids)

7. FORGOT: 3dc, post if that is your vote.


***Mods could someone add 3dc as the 7th choice...

 

[DarkStar]

SM 3.0! It seems strange that they would add this in first though. Considering how in bed they seem to be with ATI, and how no ATI cards currently support SM 3.0. But I voted for that one anyway.

 

[poseyjmac]

you forgot 3dc

 

[Neutrino]

What are "Ultra Textures"?

Do you mean the heavy use of bumpmapping or something?

Oh, and how about adding realtime lighting and a unified lighting model to the list.

 

[M1RAG3]

Neutrino, Ultra Textures are 512+ sized textures (color, bump, normal, etc...), resulting in no compression of textures, meaning beautiful, full scale results.

Also, Realtime Lighting would be impossible, or just not needed for the type of environemtn HL2 is in, although the Source engine does support said feature, but due to the large expansive outdoor scenes in HL2 it would have killed today's CPUs and GPUs.

 

[Kouler]

HDR HL2 looks SO realistic with it

 

[Neutrino]

Neutrino, Ultra Textures are 512+ sized textures (color, bump, normal, etc...), resulting in no compression of textures, meaning beautiful, full scale results.

Also, Realtime Lighting would be impossible, or just not needed for the type of environemtn HL2 is in, although the Source engine does support said feature, but due to the large expansive outdoor scenes in HL2 it would have killed today's CPUs and GPUs.

I believe many of the textures in Doom 3 were 256x256. Not saying they were bad though. I think they were the best looking textures in any game to date.

And the source engine supports realtime lighting? I don't think it would without a major rewrite and update. It's still using lightmaps after all.

 

[VGJosh]

Gabe said HL2 already supports 64bit proccessing.

 

[iamaelephant]

I wouldn't count on any of that being added to Source for free, but if anything probably the 64 bit optimizations (at least I hope so).

 

[eediot]

I voted parralax mapping. I don't know what it is, but it sounds nifty

 

[king John I]

you forgot ultra reality, where when you play the gmae you get sucked into your screen and you really DO become gordan, i think they will add that feature next.

 

[Alec_85]

Hmm I've seen a command for Parallax Mapping in the CS:S console. Does that mean it's already in there? Can't remember if it was activated or not though ;( There's a mod for Parallax Mapping for Doom3 too.

So I vote for HDR unless, that too, is already in there.

 

[CrazyHarij]

I think they'll have some primitive version of HDR implemented in the game.

 

[lans]

You can enable parallax mapping even on cs:s, so I'm sure you can so the same in HL2. Some console command, I remember.

3DC seems to be a X800 feature, right? (correct me if I'm wrong) - I think HL2 is already making use of that. (saw it in one of those advert posters and also was once confirmed by a valve employee through mail)

SM 3.0 would be available in a patch - but if the VST shows the true HL2 performance (very unlikely) then seriously who needs it since you'd be averaging 100 frames on a X800/6800 anyway. Sm 3.0 just gives a perfomance boost, no image quality change.

I remember that someone from valve said that HL2 is already optimized for 64-bit.

Valve said they'd be making the ultra-textures pack available in early patches, so I assume we'd have them before the first 512 mb cards hit shelves.

HDR - again I'm sure this would be available in the early patches for high-end users, although I think this would be given lesser preference.

phys-gun is no biggie. I'm sure someone would come up with a mod including it within days after the release. (Assuming the SDK/ hammer is along with the final game).

 

[poseyjmac]

SM 3.0 would be available in a patch - but if the VST shows the true HL2 performance (very unlikely) then seriously who needs it since you'd be averaging 100 frames on a X800/6800 anyway. Sm 3.0 just gives a perfomance boost, no image quality change.

at higher resolutions with AA and AF, its certaintly not in the 100s, that is when a few more frames can help a lot.

 

[Milo 7]

those "ULTRA" textures off doom3 were only uncompressed lightning etc and makes no difference visually (atleast its almost impossible to notice)

and the textures of doom3 were really low res and ugly upclose
the textures were pretty bad for a game in 2004
the game still looked really good and kicked ass though :cheese:

so that ULTRA doom3 texture option doesnt make much sence

 

[Sparta]

Parallax Mapping like Unreal Engine 3.0....MMMM Sexy

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

I thought that some of the textures used on HL2, eg G-man face texture stands at 1024x768. I remember one of the Valve guys saying this recently. If you're able to check out the VST for cs:s you can see that the textures in HL2 will be second to none.

 

[MrBongo]

I would assume that they would add HDR to their list of features, mainly because it has been a major topic for discussion with Valve when it comes to the Steam engine and what it can do...

 

[lans]

those "ULTRA" textures off doom3 were only uncompressed lightning etc and makes no difference visually (atleast its almost impossible to notice)

and the textures of doom3 were really low res and ugly upclose
the textures were pretty bad for a game in 2004
the game still looked really good and kicked ass though :cheese:

so that ULTRA doom3 texture option doesnt make much sence

True. Doom 3 used very low-res textures, but the bump mapping made them look very good, none the less. Overall Doom 3 really made mars and the station believeable.

HL2 on the other hand uses less of bump-mapping, and more of hi-res textures (from what we've seen). It seems they are concentrating more on using bump-mapping in caves and rocky areas, where texture quality can be comprimised.

 

[jonnyapps]

HDR HL2 looks SO realistic with it

isn't hdr just about making things like brilliant white so things seem to dazzle?

without hdr wouldn't the hdr demo have the same effects but without the glare?

Am i being st00pid?

 

[jonnyapps]

I thought that some of the textures used on HL2, eg G-man face texture stands at 1024x768. I remember one of the Valve guys saying this recently. If you're able to check out the VST for cs:s you can see that the textures in HL2 will be second to none.

isn't it 1024x1024?

 

[lans]

I thought that some of the textures used on HL2, eg G-man face texture stands at 1024x768. I remember one of the Valve guys saying this recently. If you're able to check out the VST for cs:s you can see that the textures in HL2 will be second to none.

The textures used on HL2 human faces are around 1024 x 1024. Valve's art team has done a very good job, in bringing out realistic human skin.

Quite literally, you can make out pores on G-man's face.

 

[M1RAG3]

isn't hdr just about making things like brilliant white so things seem to dazzle?

without hdr wouldn't the hdr demo have the same effects but without the glare?

Am i being st00pid?

No you are not being stupid, uneducated, but not stupid.

HDRI, High Dynamic Range Imaging, is a technique that circumvents the 256 bit limitation of computer color channels, by using the HDR format, artists/games are capable of simulating 50,000x "brighter/hotter" whites then the 256,256,256 white, allowing for the dust beams seen in the dx9 demo and the beautiful tile reflections.

 

[MrBongo]

No you are not being stupid, uneducated, but not stupid.

HDRI, High Dynamic Range Imaging, is a technique that circumvents the 256 bit limitation of computer color channels, by using the HDR format, artists/games are capable of simulating 50,000x "brighter/hotter" whites then the 256,256,256 white, allowing for the dust beams seen in the dx9 demo and the beautiful tile reflections.

Couldn't have put it better myself. And about that Ultra setting, I don't see why you have it up there. Just because it was showcased in Doom III doesn't mean it's what made the game look good. In fact, it had almost no impact visually on the game anyway.

 

[NeptuneUK]

"ULTRA-TEXTURES - (ala Doom 3)"
doom 3 has textures now?

 

[B-MAn]

Parallax Mapping? what is that?

 

[MrBongo]

"ULTRA-TEXTURES - (ala Doom 3)"
doom 3 has textures now?

Either you're being smart or sarcastic, but yes, Doom III- despite rumors -does in fact have textures. :angel:

 

[aFireInside0016]

woah, i was like...Bleeding Edge, thats the name of my friend's custom PC business. I forget the site, hes from the UK, um, google it.

 

[pgod]

Parallax Mapping is no SM3.0 aspect and is also already used in the Source engine.
Start the Video Stress Test and look at the rock texture in the beginning and in the middle of the demo.

The texture uses 3 layers:
- traditional texture
- normal mapping
- parallax mapping

On the left side in the screenshot...

 

[M1RAG3]

Parallax Mapping is no SM3.0 aspect and is also already used in the Source engine.
Start the Video Stress Test and look at the rock texture in the beginning and in the middle of the demo.

The texture uses 3 layers:
- traditional texture
- normal mapping
- parallax mapping

On the left side in the screenshot...

Sorry dude, but you are mistaken, there are only three engines to date that have shown Parallax mapping (which is an upgraded aspect of the SM 3.0 stated in the DirectX 9.0c whitepapers, along with small tweaks to vertex shaders) Doom 3 (with a mod), Far Cry (with a patch), and Unreal Engine 3 (native), Source does not currently supported, and it is not shown/displayed in the VST, and for future reference Parallax mapping requires (texture, normal map and bump map in order to create the illusion), HL2 doesn't use normal maps, only bumps maps, no actual geometry/polygons are altered or displaced any where I have seen in the source engine, although I am willing to bet that it is natively supported by Source, or at least upgradeable with a patch, I mean, c'mon it is Source, the second Reincarnation of Christ, it can do anything, including properly calculate the fresnel principle in the water shader.

Also, the only card to date that can do parallax mapping is the Geforce 6 line of cards, due to their SM 3.0 spec.

 

[shaggy2039]

while ultra textures would be pretty cool, it's useless until 512 cards come out...I'm guessing they'll upgrade it to SM3.0, but to what degree that will noticeably improve the graphics is negotiable...really what they should do is implement true HDR if they want to greatly affect the graphics, but that, is going to be one hell of a patch to implement that...

 

[Sorze]

The bump mapping information is included in the normal maps, not sure if it's like this everywhere or only in HL2, but it sure is in HL2.

I've only ever heard about parallax mapping being used in the Unreal 3 engine, or that doom3 mod.

Edit: :O Ichtyosaur Those were the scariest in HL, WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


:dork:

 

[EVIL]

Valve has confirmed in one of the e-mails that HL² uses parallax mapping. so there you go.. It also supports 3dc, "ultra-textures", 64bit optimizations, and HDR and I dont think they will add HDRI soon

 

[jonnyapps]

No you are not being stupid, uneducated, but not stupid.

HDRI, High Dynamic Range Imaging, is a technique that circumvents the 256 bit limitation of computer color channels, by using the HDR format, artists/games are capable of simulating 50,000x "brighter/hotter" whites then the 256,256,256 white, allowing for the dust beams seen in the dx9 demo and the beautiful tile reflections.

yeah that's what i thought in a more technical fashion. SO, if hdr isn't present i am still going to see all the reflective effects present in the hdr demo just at 256,256,256 correct?

I get the impression most people think hdr is = to reflections

 

[lans]

Sorry dude, but you are mistaken, there are only three engines to date that have shown Parallax mapping (which is an upgraded aspect of the SM 3.0 stated in the DirectX 9.0c whitepapers, along with small tweaks to vertex shaders) Doom 3 (with a mod), Far Cry (with a patch), and Unreal Engine 3 (native), Source does not currently supported, and it is not shown/displayed in the VST, and for future reference Parallax mapping requires (texture, normal map and bump map in order to create the illusion), HL2 doesn't use normal maps, only bumps maps, no actual geometry/polygons are altered or displaced any where I have seen in the source engine, although I am willing to bet that it is natively supported by Source, or at least upgradeable with a patch, I mean, c'mon it is Source, the second Reincarnation of Christ, it can do anything, including properly calculate the fresnel principle in the water shader.

Also, the only card to date that can do parallax mapping is the Geforce 6 line of cards, due to their SM 3.0 spec.

Actually you can enable parallax mapping in cs:s (console command, I think). Also, valve has confrimed that source does indeed support parallax mapping. Also source supports normal maps - who told you it doesn't?

Watch the GDC 2004 videos, one of valve's designer even demostrates normal mapping in the environment.

 

[PvtRyan]

Sorry dude, but you are mistaken, there are only three engines to date that have shown Parallax mapping (which is an upgraded aspect of the SM 3.0 stated in the DirectX 9.0c whitepapers, along with small tweaks to vertex shaders) Doom 3 (with a mod), Far Cry (with a patch), and Unreal Engine 3 (native), Source does not currently supported, and it is not shown/displayed in the VST, and for future reference Parallax mapping requires (texture, normal map and bump map in order to create the illusion), HL2 doesn't use normal maps, only bumps maps, no actual geometry/polygons are altered or displaced any where I have seen in the source engine, although I am willing to bet that it is natively supported by Source, or at least upgradeable with a patch, I mean, c'mon it is Source, the second Reincarnation of Christ, it can do anything, including properly calculate the fresnel principle in the water shader.

Also, the only card to date that can do parallax mapping is the Geforce 6 line of cards, due to their SM 3.0 spec.

No, it's quite a simple trick, and is not only limited to GF6 but to any card capable of PS2.0 (or maybe even 1.1 and higher).

I can't confirm whether or not CS:S uses parallax mapping, but if the normal map occludes itself, it is.

And HL2 uses normal mapping.

And yes, as far as I'm aware, parallax mapping requires a heightmap, but that's hardly an issue, I created a capable heightmap of this image in literally ONE Photoshop operation. Not perfect, but with 5 min of cleaning up it would be. So heightmaps for surfaces which require it is not hard.

 

[Hackerman]

For some odd reason I cant get into the test_hardware map in CS:S .... the first screen will pop up then practically freeze, and I have already set my vid standards on as low as they can go... I dont know though...

 

[M1RAG3]

The bump mapping information is included in the normal maps.

Bump Maps and Normal Maps are two different things, similiar principle tho, a bump map consists of a texture composed of a height field which is designated by the range of shades from black to white, black being the lowest, and white being the highest, also bump maps do not affect geometry in any way shape or form.

Normal maps, also known as Displacement maps, take the idea of a bump map, but to a higher level, the height fields are no represent by the full range of colors (0,0,0 to 256,256,256) allowing for greater detail, and if so desired normal maps can "physically" alter model/terrian geometry, while bumps maps only simulate the said effect.

Actually you can enable parallax mapping in cs:s (console command, I think). Also, valve has confrimed that source does indeed support parallax mapping. Also source supports normal maps - who told you it doesn't?

Watch the GDC 2004 videos, one of valve's designer even demostrates normal mapping in the environment.

Yes people, Source has it, HL2 doesn't... HL2 doesn't have normal maps, they are using bump maps, and you must have a sm 3.0 to run Parallax mapping natively on the hardware, otherwise it runs off of a software rasterizer emulation type scheme, costing major FPS hits. Goto the DirectX site and download the new whitepapers for 9.0c, and pay especially careful attention to the standards and features of SM 3.0

 

[pgod]

There is a console command to enable/disable parallax mapping: "mat_parallaxmap"

I made a quick "comparision gif":
http://www.pgod.privat.t-online.de/parallaxmap.gif

I didn't move my mouse.
My graphics card is a Radeon 9800XT.