WHy Multi-player limited to 32?

[TMoney]

....

The maps can be much bigger, but only 32 people on at once? That's too bad. I would have thought they would have tried to optimize the net-code to handle more players. Mybe it's just impossible with todays technology to get the kind of performance needed with > 32.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Valve have said you can have upto 256, though at that point it will be seriously straining the engine. But 100 should be more managable.

 

[dawdler]

Depends on how one define "manageable". Despite Joint Operations having 150 player support, its not really playable for a majority of players, with the engine chugging at anywhere from 1 to 10 fps... Is HL2 really that much better? It better be!

A really simple mod might get it up to 256 though. I doubt a CS clone of some sort (ie regular infantry handling) can do it... How about a game such as Overboard? Small pirate ships seen from above. Limited graphics load with low poly ships (and tons of shaded water, heh) and simple controls (rotation, movement (which could be without player involvement, ie wind that blows your ship, should reduce network load in half with just sending from the server), fire left/right). Can easily see beyond 100 players for that (hell might even get it to 200!)... Oh man would I like to make such a mod.

 

[TMoney]

I thought the half-life:Source specs mentioned 32. Where does it say 256?

Also, that was my thinking too. Keep the polys low and throw more people in the fray. My idea was more along the lines of a space combat simulation.

 

[dawdler]

One of the devs mentioned 256 is max I believe. 256 is max in JO too (can be seen by checking the max amount of deathmatch teams). But of course, the GAME only support 32 or 64 or whatever, they wouldnt be stupid enough to claim 256, lol...

Anyway, the problem with a space sim is that its still lots to send over the net, especially so for the space sim since its complete freedom of movement with fairly high precision...
In my example with the ship, you only have a low precision rotation in one plane (for example only integers) and a constant movement system depending on "wind" (also integer) being sent from the server. In a very crude sort of speak, there would be no need for a player to hog the server with his intentions...

Sidenote: Of course, a space sim can actually be done in nearly the same simple way... You'll loose the 3D movement though. But its easier to work bigger battleships with the system (ie you can actually work a fleet instead of scatter in all angles). Then again, once you get to this point you'll probably want a simple true space sim and slightly less players anyway.

 

[dawdler]

Oh, I just remembered I still have my old space sim mod idea up: http://w1.855.telia.com/~u85528876/tl/
Got cancelled after the HL2 delay last year though. Maybe I'll see it through... If I have the models that is. Come to think of it, those might have been lost when the harddrive crashed, bleh.

Is that simple enough models for ya?

 

[TMoney]

Oh, I just remembered I still have my old space sim mod idea up: http://w1.855.telia.com/~u85528876/tl/
Got cancelled after the HL2 delay last year though. Maybe I'll see it through... If I have the models that is. Come to think of it, those might have been lost when the harddrive crashed, bleh.

Is that simple enough models for ya?

That looks pretty cool. Exactly what I was talking about. SO you lost the models? Damn shame. How long did it take to create those? I'm playing around with modeling some, but I will leave that for someone else. I'm a c++ programmer (10 yrs), currently in the financial world but I'd like to start a simple mod soon in my spare time. I need a great idea that will keep me motivated.

 

[TMoney]

it needs to be simple also, and not too complicated or it will probably never get done. Simple, Fast, fun.

 

[dawdler]

Yeah, that was the concept. If I ever take it up again it will probably be even more streamlined, reducing the amount of ships and increasing the options of fitted weaponry and items. A cruiser that gives shielding to surrounding ships (instead of the more flexible "group morale"). Stuff like that. Would like to make the modular instead of fixed models (base fighter/cruiser/battleship, then fitted on extras) too. Still very uncertain whether I actually want to proceed with the project, its lots of work even though its simple, lol. I was all hyped up over HL2, then got dissapointed.

Anyway, the models didnt take that long... The models arent complicated. Getting them to reflect star wars took longer time than actually making the models, lol. The original project even had unique ships.

 

[Dead-Inside]

Valve have said you can have upto 256, though at that point it will be seriously straining the engine. But 100 should be more managable.

The server... The server, the engine could do it.

 

[kiwii]

lets face it, 256 = laggy as hell, low fps .. i think 32 players is enough

 

[Dr. Freeman]

while there are games and mods out there which can handle 32 max player limits and even higher.. i think right now its really not a great idea mainly because we still have gamers who use 56K as a connection.

quite frankly it can get laggy just having 24 players with Cable modem connections, let alone 56K.
i think before developers make MP games/mods on a wider range, the speeds of transfer need to improve and generally 56K should be a rare thing and such.

plus not only that.. the PC in general needs to be faster in order to handle 50-60 (or higher) players more commonly before we start seeing 128 and 256 player limits TBH.

 

[dawdler]

From what I've heard, 150 player in JO is actually possible with 56k. 64 defiently.

the PC in general needs to be faster in order to handle 50-60
This is JO's sweetspot, where its still without any lag (I would say 60-80 instead though). Now if the JO netcode was with something like CS, you would see 150 players *EASILY* even on crappier computer. The JO graphics engine is a SLUG compared to its netcode.

Personally I think a test would be fun on what can be done today in terms of graphics/netplay and I suppose Source will be that test, if Valve continues to support and improve the netcode.

 

[Kon]

is it possible to sacrifice or cut down certain things in order to allow for higher player counts? what can be sacrificed/cut down?

 

[Calhoun]

Half-Life 2 is limited to 64 players I've heard but with the Source Engine is limited to 256 players maximum.

 

[dawdler]

is it possible to sacrifice or cut down certain things in order to allow for higher player counts? what can be sacrificed/cut down?

Everything?

Depends on how you mean. Cut down from what? Need to have a reference to cut it down. Also I seem to remember HL2 supporting lodding... If you want to get really cheap, heavier lodding than normal can cut down load substantially (just look at Rome Total War and its soldiers), while maintaining detail up close. And CS is of course a perfect example of already lower poly counts than normal today. You could cut down on them even more and still look real enough (think early Rainbow six games and the like).
Edit: Whether you can go lower in level polycounts than CS is questionable... Especially if you want a good map. I dont really see that as something you cut down very much.

In the space sim example, and mine in particular, the most blatantly thing cut down is complete removal of textures on the ships, just using colors, lighting and shading (be it cell or gourad or whatever kind of shading, just something to make it look a tad better/unique). Plus the fact that they are built of simple and low poly geometric shapes of course. With this you also cut down animations significantly (ie there are none). Any card should be able to handle 100+ ships on the screen without the slightest hiccup (especially employing DX9 features and lodding on top of the already low poly models)... Whether the netcode can handle it is a completely different matter.
But graphically it shouldnt be any problem to reach high player counts.

 

[FragBait0]

Average CS poly counts for the (official) levels are quite restraining enough for mappers thank you very much. Unless you want a killbox of size 512x512 units...

 

[TMoney]

is it possible to sacrifice or cut down certain things in order to allow for higher player counts? what can be sacrificed/cut down?

I'm not sure what to cut down yet. I wonder if it will be possible to "override" the netcode functionality in order to remove certain functionality that a simple may not need.

Also, concerning the 56kers. I would not be opposed at all to have a mod that only supported DSL and Cable modem folks. There are plenty of games out there for them until they can upgrade from 56k modems. :afro:

 

[dawdler]

I'm not sure what to cut down yet. I wonder if it will be possible to "override" the netcode functionality in order to remove certain functionality that a simple may not need.

You only send what you need to send. If everyone sent everything all the time... Oh boy the lag!

Mods can of course alter what they send, or we wouldnt see any mods at all. It would be quite difficult to make CS, DoD or NS with the HL limitation

 

[FragBait0]

Also, concerning the 56kers. I would not be opposed at all to have a mod that only supported DSL and Cable modem folks. There are plenty of games out there for them until they can upgrade from 56k modems.

That's easy for you to say. You are not on it.
I would change if I could and I have to say a lot of people stuck in the same spot would say the same thing. But I guess we are a smaller and smaller proportion of the community..according to steam serveys anyway. That stuff is rigged. If people on 56k dont use steam then how can they possibly answer to a servery on steam...I know it was on the site but then how many 56kers are going to look at steampowered all the time, especially if it's one of their most hated things.
EDIT: I am after these two keywords: sample space.
The sample space of that second servey was completly biased. Intentional or not.
/offtopic

 

[TMoney]

Everything?

In the space sim example, and mine in particular, the most blatantly thing cut down is complete removal of textures on the ships, just using colors, lighting and shading (be it cell or gourad or whatever kind of shading, just something to make it look a tad better/unique). Plus the fact that they are built of simple and low poly geometric shapes of course. With this you also cut down animations significantly (ie there are none). Any card should be able to handle 100+ ships on the screen without the slightest hiccup (especially employing DX9 features and lodding on top of the already low poly models)... Whether the netcode can handle it is a completely different matter.
But graphically it shouldnt be any problem to reach high player counts.

Does cutting down the textures really improve performance greatly?

 

[dawdler]

Does cutting down the textures really improve performance greatly?

On modern graphics cards? Not really. The raw output of these beasts is already immense. But of course, if we then start talking bump mapping and normal maps or displacement and detail maps in large quantities... You would most definetly see a difference.

Personally I think the best idea (if one want to get simple here) is to either use higher polycounts and no textures or lower polycounts and low-medium res textures, similar to Homeworld quality.
Edit: I think there is certain class in using no textures. I mean, if you think on it and look at the ships I made, its not really neccessary. And keep in mind these are a year old, today I could make much better models (not to mention what a modeller could do)... Why bloat it? Today games consist of like 100mb models and 2gb high res textures.

You can always try playing Tie Fighter (CE preferably). I'm sure you will reach around 500 fps :thumbs:

 

[Garrland]

So let me get this right. HL2 Supports 64 players but mods will have the ability to go as high as 256? I under stand a 256 player CS would be lagged but a mod that requires less network traffic could use the higher numbers.

 

[dawdler]

Exactly

 

[TMoney]

On modern graphics cards? Not really. The raw output of these beasts is already immense. But of course, if we then start talking bump mapping and normal maps or displacement and detail maps in large quantities... You would most definetly see a difference.

Personally I think the best idea (if one want to get simple here) is to either use higher polycounts and no textures or lower polycounts and low-medium res textures, similar to Homeworld quality.
Edit: I think there is certain class in using no textures. I mean, if you think on it and look at the ships I made, its not really neccessary. And keep in mind these are a year old, today I could make much better models (not to mention what a modeller could do)... Why bloat it? Today games consist of like 100mb models and 2gb high res textures.

You can always try playing Tie Fighter (CE preferably). I'm sure you will reach around 500 fps :thumbs:

Homeworld is exactly the inspiration for the ship models I was thinking of. Low poly count, but they look great due to the textures. I was even thinking of extracting the homeworld models from the game and modifying them by at least 10%(for legal reasons) and using them in hl2 mod. They could probably be very small models in terms of hl2 models. For example, the size of Gordon Freemans head. The space maps would seem even larger then.

 

[dawdler]

Homeworld is exactly the inspiration for the ship models I was thinking of. Low poly count, but they look great due to the textures. I was even thinking of extracting the homeworld models from the game and modifying them by at least 10%(for legal reasons) and using them in hl2 mod. They could probably be very small models in terms of hl2 models. For example, the size of Gordon Freemans head. The space maps would seem even larger then.

Lol, people would notice... What can you do, add speedstripes?

If there is true ambition to make a homeworld style mod, I would highly advise making the models from scratch. As I said earlier, you only need a base and can then work your way from there (for example, you make a standard escape pod. Strap on a small hull and its a fighter. Strap on hugeass engines and torpedo launchers and its a bomber. Etc etc. Same goes with capital ships, if you are imaginative)

 

[TMoney]

Lol, people would notice... What can you do, add speedstripes?

lol. who cares if people notice?

 

[dawdler]

Copyright issues you know, even if you alter them "by 10%"... Doubt they will really care though. You can whip up Homeworld class models in minutes anyway. But that is your choice of course.