"You should help us!" Iran and violence

Sounds like they're really letting the Basij off the leash.
 
Internal Iranian issue. Not anyone else's problem and no one has any business doing anything, to do so would be a huge violation of Iranian soverignty.
 
i wish i could help but its probably too little too late.
 
Bob_Marley said:
Internal Iranian issue. Not anyone else's problem and no one has any business doing anything, to do so would be a huge violation of Iranian soverignty.
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Bulshit.

Why should I not care about the lives and freedom of other people simply becuase they happen to live in another country?

Preventing things like this is the duty all mankind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvPHxmXYILA
 
you dont think there's already things being done ...for instance the CIA aided opponents of saddam after the first gulf war behind the scenes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_National_Congress

and it wouldnt be the first time they "helped" in iran

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/


nor the last:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html


I wouldnt be surprised if they had a direct role in the unrest. it's their MO



I think on an emotional level it is our duty to right wrongs however realistically speaking we'd only make things far far worse
 
The Monkey said:
Bulshit.

Why should I not care about the lives and freedom of other people simply becuase they happen to live in another country?

Preventing things like this is the duty all mankind:
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You complain when America intervenes. Then you complain when America doesn't intervene.

You can't have it both ways!
 
repiV said:
You complain when America intervenes. Then you complain when America doesn't intervene.

You can't have it both ways!
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This.

Hate to say it, in a perfect world the western world world be casting down tyrants and dictators left right and centre but as it is if it isn't our misguided intentions making things worse its people, often people we are trying to help turning on us and blowing up our soldiers.

Iranian people want freedom?, great, the western world sympathizes with them but they need to earn it through defiance, resistance, standing up to bad men, and yes, blood.

The west had to go through a devastating world war amongst others in our long climb to liberty and democracy. If Iranians truly want democracy to take hold and stick it needs to have its roots firmly dug deep in their own trials and tribulations, not on the shoddy foundation of outside intervention.
 
The Monkey said:
Bulshit.

Why should I not care about the lives and freedom of other people simply becuase they happen to live in another country?

Preventing things like this is the duty all mankind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvPHxmXYILA
Click to expand...

You take that position and anyone from anywhere gets to impose thier values on you.

Its not nice, but the Iranians arn't fighting anyone outside of Iran and they arn't conducting genocide (which is generally held to be the only reason to violate the founding principle of international law).

So what do you want then?
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Have the Swedish Government send Khomeni a letting telling him how angry they are?
 
People in Iran need to armor up and fight off the militias and police if they want to gain ground and a democracy. in fact, if they don't then they're just destined to fail yet again
 
repiV said:
So what do you want then?
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Financal support to the opposition, freezing of bank accounts belonging to the regime, embargo, that sort of thing. Also give moral support to the protesters and let them know that they aren't alone.

You take that position and anyone from anywhere gets to impose thier values on you.

Its not nice, but the Iranians arn't fighting anyone outside of Iran and they arn't conducting genocide (which is generally held to be the only reason to violate the founding principle of international law).
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Human rights are universal. I'm not imposing values on anybady, I'm not telling anybody how to live, the only think I'm asking is for them to let the people exercise their freedoms. It has nothing to do with culture. If people in Iran want to live strictly by the Koran they are welcome to, but they have no right forcing anyone else to do the same.
 
they;re already doing that. but ultimately the people would be the ones to suffer ..especially with more embargos and sanctions. they have a right to self-determination; it's part of the UN charter which Iran is a signatory to
 
That young woman didn't look at all threatening or dangerous. I would hope that she wasn't the intended target.
 
The Monkey said:
Financal support to the opposition, freezing of bank accounts belonging to the regime, embargo, that sort of thing. Also give moral support to the protesters and let them know that they aren't alone.
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Acts of war anyway. If you're going to do something, do it properly. Nothing is more "inhumane" than half-heartedly fighting half a war. It causes prolonged suffering and doesn't accomplish anything.

Human rights are universal. I'm not imposing values on anybady, I'm not telling anybody how to live, the only think I'm asking is for them to let the people exercise their freedoms. It has nothing to do with culture. If people in Iran want to live strictly by the Koran they are welcome to, but they have no right forcing anyone else to do the same.
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This is where you are wrong. Human rights are a pretty recent concept created by man. No moral or ethical ideal can exist universally and without reference to human interpretation, that makes no sense. Right and wrong are not physical constructs. In a lot of cultures, people have no rights. Only power - or a lack of it. Even in civilised, democratic India, there is the caste system.

The concept of "freedom" as we understand it is an entirely Western one. Eastern cultures are far more hierarchial and far more collectivist - in Korea and Japan for example, the needs of the individual are irrelevant and things are always seen from the perspective of the group. To one extent or another. Which is why, generally speaking, these countries are very racist. As a foreigner, you're welcome as a guest but you will never be accepted as part of the group.

Have you never wondered why Western countries have large populations from around the world all integrated (well, mostly) with the host culture, while this is not the case anywhere else in the world? We have a very individualistic view of the world. We can accept other individuals into our midst and treat them as individuals. Many far- and middle-eastern countries have large immigrant/expat populations, but they are not and never will be seen or accepted as being of that nationality. Find me anyone who describes themselves as Japanese, but who is not of Japanese origin.

A Pakistani man can move here and later be considered English. You will never be considered Pakistani, no matter how long you live in Pakistan for. Collectivist society, collectivist identity.

You are imposing your values, you simply don't realise it because those values govern your entire life and way of thinking, and you can't recognise that other cultures would have deeply conflicting core values (conformity, sacrifice, obedience, duty...).

Precisely why trying to integrate Islam into Western countries is an unmitigated disaster and half of London looks like it's been airlifted out of the Middle East. They can live how they like, in their countries, it's really none of my concern. Meanwhile, can we enjoy our freedoms in peace?
 
If we can do something to minimize the loss of life without interfering with their affairs, then we should do it. But other than that, this is an Iranian fight, one they initiated themselves. The US shouldnt get involved with either side.

Reza Aslan had a good way of putting it. Skip to ~4:15 if you want to get right to what i'm talking about.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=231561&title=Reza-Aslan
 
Australian prime minister kevin rudd has used the strongest words against the iran government then any other world leader including brrack obama, i wonder why cnn or any other news program reports that?
 
I feel that the United States Government should not get involved in any way in this issue. And this includes Obama's public condemnation of the Iranian government, which I believe is one of the most counterproductive things he has ever done. Now, before you start accusing me for not caring, I would like to tell you that I do care. I care about the protesters. I care that they are risking their lives for a free Iran, and am appalled by the fact that their government is basically butchering them.

But with all that said, what exactly do Obama's comments accomplish? Will his moral support give the protesters the strength to emerge victorious? Will his comments convince the Iranian government to back down? No. They only increase tensions between the US and Iran, and eliminate all possibility of diplomatic relations between the nations, diplomacy which was one of the cornerstones of the Obama administration's policy. Hopefully, things won't get worse than this, but I fear these tensions may escalate. I can understand that it feels right to publicly condemn Iran, but logically the consequences will do much more harm than good. There is a word for this: truthiness.

I can understand why Obama feels the need to say these things, but he should have left it to the news media and the American people to discuss. A diplomatic future with Iran was far too important to squander out of principal, but now that it has been, I have this to say: Please Obama, don't drag us into another war.
 
Neither side likes the US at all anyways, they're both still very mistrustful of us. Frankly we have no diplomatic relations with Iran, so theres not much to lose in that respect. I dont think words of encouragement or condemnation will have much impact at all, because the Iranians on either side dont give a shit what we think. As long as we stay out of their way and let them settle their own dispute, then ultimately, things in Iran will be better off.
 
ian1 said:
I can understand why Obama feels the need to say these things, but he should have left it to the news media and the American people to discuss.
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Only until the news media questions Obama about his position at a press conference.

Obama's opinion rating would suffer a few points if he ignored the protest situation in Iran altogether. It all comes down to how the U.S. feels about Obama, not Iran. He's sailing at the 60% approval mark, and wants to keep it that way. Saying nothing only makes him come off that he doesn't care about reformist protesters wanting to change their government, which would then turn him into a hypocrite in the public's eye.
 
Governments especially the united states government shouldn't just step back and let things happen, look whats happening in iran now, barely anyone is protesting now, they will have no change of government now.

We live in a time where every country should be a democracy and everyone who stands for democracy should enforce democracy. As i said in my previous post, my countries prime minister has used the strongest words against iran then any other world leader, no one covers it but they cover barrack obama using a few measly words.
 
Man, there's no pleasing some of you people.

You fly over to Iran and topple the regime.
 
even though it would benfit us if we overthrew the current regime we don't have the right to do so,if they manage to topple the government by themselves this mean that Israel most likely won't have an excuse to glass Iran in the future...That int turn would save us from going even more bankrupt
 
Discrate said:
We live in a time where every country should be a democracy and everyone who stands for democracy should enforce democracy.
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You're talking about one nation forcing another nation to become a democracy. That should not happen. Ever.
 
Krynn72 said:
You're talking about one nation forcing another nation to become a democracy. That should not happen. Ever.
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Yes it should? every coutnry that is a democracy should help put democracy in other countries that are fun by regimes. Tell me a country where the people are happy to have a dictator?
 
I hate how on the news Michael Jackson dominates the news scene right now. I'm pretty sure we knew more about Michael than he did and thats the sad part. I haven't even heard an ounce of news on the whole rigged Iranian election since Michael died.
 
Discrate said:
Yes it should? every coutnry that is a democracy should help put democracy in other countries that are fun by regimes. Tell me a country where the people are happy to have a dictator?
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Not every culture is accepting of democracy.

Would you like me coming into your home and forcing you to operate your household how I see fit?

We can't interject ourselves into this mess. It will only cause problems for us and the protesters. It would be a benefit for the current Iranian government.
 
Discrate said:
Yes it should? every coutnry that is a democracy should help put democracy in other countries that are fun by regimes. Tell me a country where the people are happy to have a dictator?
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All the ones where the population don't rise up and at least try to force the dictator out of power.

If that doesn't happen nobody has any right nor obligation to enforce democracy there.
 
Raziaar said:
Not every culture is accepting of democracy.

Would you like me coming into your home and forcing you to operate your household how I see fit?

We can't interject ourselves into this mess. It will only cause problems for us and the protesters. It would be a benefit for the current Iranian government.
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Everyone wants the right to elect there leader, please tell me a country where people want a dictator? I bet you, you cant.
 
If they didn't want a dictator, it would be no effort at all to overthrow the regime because that dictator wouldn't have a loyal army to depend upon.

Evidently, this is not the case.
 
Discrate said:
Everyone wants the right to elect there leader, please tell me a country where people want a dictator? I bet you, you cant.
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Where the **** do you come up with democracy as the ideal choice? Democracy isn't the only government choice.

It's an ideal choice for some, not for others. I don't believe a dictatorship is an ideal government type in any situation, but we can't just throw ourselves into the business of every country and expect them to be bettered by propping up a poorly constructed democracy. It's bullshit, and it will typically lead to tons of unrest, destruction, and general chaos for most people involved.
 
There's no point establishing a democracy for people not motivated to create it for themselves.
 
Eejit said:
There's no point establishing a democracy for people not motivated to create it for themselves.
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The protests are a testament in of themselves to the people's motivation for change. This isn't the US though, Iran and the Basij can get away with killing protesters and acting extremely harshly without a much larger backlash. However, these protests, imho, show me and the rest of the world that the people of Iran are not going to sit and do nothing when they believe their country is in turmoil.

As far as the US getting involved...that's a big no no, especially during these times. Obviously the world wants to help but as previous posters have stated, the people of Iran have to help themselves.

Humanity is so primitive still, it's sad.
 
They're objecting to the choice of figurehead/scapegoat rather than the real dictator in Iran...
 
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