100,000 protesters take to the street in Athens

[The Monkey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17003432

What say you? Are the Greeks justified in the violence against the system? Does the fault lie only with the politicians, or also with the people themselves? (For example through their tendency to tolerate and engage in the underground economy, which avoids taxation and thus denies the Greek state vast amounts of money.)

 

[Stigmata]

It can be argued that "the underground economy" is a more-democratic expression of economic will than bought legislation and hidden cronyist agendas. I'm completely on the side of the citizens.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Hurry up and leave the EU already.

 

[ríomhaire]

100,000 protesters take to the street in Athens

Business as usual then.

 

[Mogi67]

I applaud the Greeks for giving a shit. I can see why they're angry, 20% reduction of the minimum wage would piss me off too, among other things. I can't imagine a large number people protesting if there was a similar situation in the US... it seems like most people are way too docile. But the media always overblows riots in greece, they make it sound like every street corner is burning, when reality the violence is probably contained to only a couple streets and syntagma square. When I lived in thessaloniki people were rioting over the kid who got shot and it wasn't too widespread

 

[Stigmata]

It's this kind of shit that makes it impossible for me to consider supporting the Greek government.

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/53244

[00:20] Voting started
[00:49] Till now, 12 MPs from New Democracy, 11 Mps from Pasok haven't voted Yes.
[00:56] Till now 19 MPs from ND, 13 MPs from Pasok voted No.
[01:05] Parliament voted in favor of new austerity bill. All of KKE, Syriza and Democratic Left MPs voted No, as well as 21 New Democracy MPs (one in four- ND has 83 MPs in total) and 13 Pasok MPs. Laos MPs voted No, leader absent, the two former ministers voted Yes. All but one Democratic Alliance MPs voted Yes.
[01:19] In the final tally, 199 MPs voted in favour and 74 against the second bailout memorandum.
[01:24] Antonis Samaras has expelled 21 MPs from his New Democracy parliamentary party! That leaves ND with 62 MPs.
George Papandreou has expelled 23 from Pasok.
And, finishing the Night of the Long Knives, Makis Voridis and Adonis Georgiadis have been expelled from the Popular Orthodox Rally.

 

[kineaesth]

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Perhaps they are ready for communism. Without you know, the politicians.

 

[The Monkey]

Sheet, son, they be going all Baghdad an' shit.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I don't understand, rioting over austerity measures?

Are they rioting because spending is out of control in Greece or are they rioting to increase/keep spending?

Not sure if I'm understanding the rioters goals here. Yes I know there's usually not always concrete list of specific objectives but the general consensus of mobs/protest groups/rioters generally goes one way or the other. What exactly are these people wanting, a balanced budget, increased government benefits, cut frivelous spending? What is it?

 

[The Monkey]

I don't understand, rioting over austerity measures?

Are they rioting because spending is out of control in Greece or are they rioting to increase/keep spending?

Not sure if I'm understanding the rioters goals here. Yes I know there's usually not always concrete list of specific objectives but the general consensus of mobs/protest groups/rioters generally goes one way or the other. What exactly are these people wanting, a balanced budget, increased government benefits, cut frivelous spending? What is it?

Well, they feel they are being punished (through raised taxed, dismissals and lowered wages and pensions) for something they have no blame in. I don't think they really have a realistic alternative, most of them are just pissed of. I think most people are inclined to think that the dismantling of the entire structure of the state would be preferable at this stage, and start over.

The few who are employed work 12 hours a day, pay 50% in taxes and get nothing back from the welfare state they pay to uphold. There's no medicine in the hospitals and no textbooks in school. And the rest have no real chance of finding a job within the next few years and just have to endure through physical misery and physiological terror while having no chance to improve their situation. I'd be throwing bricks too if I was in their shoes.

 

[mechanicallizard]

I never really understood the situation either. But going off what you just said, yeah Id be pretty pissed off too.

 

[unozero]

"wahhhhh the government wont give us as much free shit as they used to wahhhh"

 

[Bad^Hat]

As usual, a well considered and thought provoking contribution.

 

[Eejit]

"wahhhhh the government wont give us as much free shit as they used to wahhhh"

Free shit? Their taxes pay for it. Taxes which aren't being cut along with spending. DERP.

 

[99.vikram]

It can be argued that "the underground economy" is a more-democratic expression of economic will than bought legislation and hidden cronyist agendas. I'm completely on the side of the citizens.

What bullshit, government is a social contract; you can't avail the benefits (such as a retarded early retirement age and first world social security) without paying the price. Countries like Germany work their ass off to stay on top of their game.

But the lost tax revenue is pocket change compared to the systemic inefficiencies, loss of economic trust and lost value from corruption.

 

[Stigmata]

Uno, it's a little more like this:

"Hey, Greek citizens, you know how we taxed the rich and corporations at unfairly low rates for a long time, and then the financial sector essentially caused the banking crisis?"
"Yes?"
"To make up the deficit, we have no choice but to use more of your money and your country's infrastructure."
"Uhhhh... no, you don't."
"Yes we do, now stop talking please, important people are having discussions."
"That's an interesting method of conducting state affairs." <riot>

What bullshit, government is a social contract; you can't avail the benefits (such as a retarded early retirement age and first world social security) without paying the price. Countries like Germany work their ass off to stay on top of their game.

But the lost tax revenue is pocket change compared to the systemic inefficiencies, loss of economic trust and lost value from corruption.

Theory vs reality. Simply being a democratic government in name and shape does not accord one a true social contract. What the Greek government is doing violates the requirement that representatives of citizens actually represent the people who elect them. This is simply not occurring.

 

[99.vikram]

"Hey, Greek citizens, you know how we taxed the rich and corporations at unfairly low rates for a long time, and then the financial sector essentially caused the banking crisis?"
...
What the Greek government is doing violates the requirement that representatives of citizens actually represent the people who elect them. This is simply not occurring.

Part of the problem is the porous tax net. *Individuals* are failing to pay taxes correctly en masse. Corporate tax loopholes are a different but smaller problem.

Anyway, what's the alternative? Tell your German and French creditors to back off? Who would ever lend anything to Greece, ever?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Well, they feel they are being punished (through raised taxed, dismissals and lowered wages and pensions) for something they have no blame in. I don't think they really have a realistic alternative, most of them are just pissed of. I think most people are inclined to think that the dismantling of the entire structure of the state would be preferable at this stage, and start over.

The few who are employed work 12 hours a day, pay 50% in taxes and get nothing back from the welfare state they pay to uphold. There's no medicine in the hospitals and no textbooks in school. And the rest have no real chance of finding a job within the next few years and just have to endure through physical misery and physiological terror while having no chance to improve their situation. I'd be throwing bricks too if I was in their shoes.

Makes me want to riot here too! Working full time, paying taxes, and getting 0 financial benefit from the government while leeches are able to easily collect welfare that I help to uphold.

I'm thinking it's not those people rioting though, most likely benefit recipient. The gravy train has to end at some point.

Why doesn't Greece simply enforce its existing tax laws if one of the root problems is criminal tax evasion? It's pretty hard to get away with that en masse in places like the US, Canada, etc. No reason Greece shouldn't be able to clean up house.

Anyway, what's the alternative? Tell your German and French creditors to back off? Who would ever lend anything to Greece, ever?

Debt and borrowing are not requirements nor prerequisites for a successful state or business. What about a balanced budget? Greece is not at war or anything like that so there is no need for massive borrowing. Default, start over, and balance your books from then on. Everyone fears the D word, it's not so bad if you pledge to keep a budget. You just have to have politicians that will allow it. Like here in the US the balanced budget requirement was killed by the Democrat party- so dumb.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'm thinking it's not those people rioting though, most likely benefit recipient. The gravy train has to end at some point.

I have a Greek colleague who is very politically literate and obsessively keeps track of goings on in her home country. According to her, the anger is essentially over an unequal distribution of risk and punishment. An unrepresentative government 'cooked the books' to get the country into the European Union, concealing the true scale of their financial problems in order to derive the benefits of unification (rarely-acknowledged fact: large companies are up there with student travelers among the primary beneficiaries of EU membership). It was the mismanagement and perfidy of the same government which caused their current crisis. Yet despite all this, EU-imposed austerity deals forcing cuts to public services and reductions in economic investment are harming the ordinary people who had very little to do with the factors that supposedly create the necessity. i.e. "Why should we pay for what's not our fault". It may well be that the Greeks don't have any better options, that they don't have any better answers, but they aren't just rioting because they don't want to face the facts.

There is one conservative critique of the EU that I very much agree with (actually there's a bunch but whatevs): it makes no sense to bring countries with strong currencies and countries with weak currencies together into the Euro. It means other countries are obliged to shit themselves about economic troubles in Greece to a much greater extent than they otherwise would, and it also means that devaluing their currency (which has its own benefits) is not an option for the Greeks.

Why doesn't Greece simply enforce its existing tax laws if one of the root problems is criminal tax evasion? It's pretty hard to get away with that en masse in places like the US, Canada, etc. No reason Greece shouldn't be able to clean up house.

Fair question. You'd think that, wouldn't you? I mean, you'd think it in the UK too. And yet...

...officials collude with banking houses to write off their tax...
...as part of a culture of cosiness between tax officers and corporations...
...and the collection offices are being dismantled...
...even though tax evasion and avoidance cost the UK far more than benefit fraud.

Today's economic and political crisis is brought to you by the words "legislative" and "capture".

Somehow, for some reason, a great proportion of the citizens of the first world are in a position of being ordered by their governments to pay for bailouts they did not provoke, and suffer for a crisis they did not cause. If they object, the instruments of law enforcement are ready to harass and victimize them. Yet somehow, for some reason, laws designed to regulate industries are regularly written by lobbyists from those industries. Somehow, for some reason, a company that stands to profit from health privatisation and which has been advertising to its clients on that basis had a major hand in the creation of new health reforms. I can't speak for your country, but I know that if you lived in mine you would have to be very blind to bitch about paying taxes to "welfare" "leeches" when the international rich make huge amounts of money in corporate welfare from ensuring that your government rigs all games in their favour.

Excessive government power and excessive corporate power are two sides of the same coin. The latter has no problem with the former, as long as it is allowed to hijack its deployment.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Well in a case of clear fraud (book cooking) to enter the EU with no consequences for those that did so and a police force that shelters them, it's obviously prime time for them to enter organized armed revolt. Not necessarily revolution, the system or way of government itself (democracy) doesnt have to be thrown out for another form, but the house obviously must be cleaned out over there. Rioting and destroying your own neighborhoods and shops without organization or concrete objectives is just stupidity, and it just brings themselves more misery. Same concept applied during the LA riots- those cops shouldn't have been let off, but for the black areas of LA to burn down and loot their own neighborhoods was just as stupid.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yeah, I agree. In many ways I could get behind the feeling that motivated the London riots last year (in b4 "criminality pure and simple blah blah"), but, like, dudes, there's sod-all point in destroying your own neighbourhoods and trashing local businesses. They are not your problem. Hell, they should be your allies.