15 answers to Creationist Nonsense - Scientific American

Nemesis6

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1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.

Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.

"Survival of the fittest" is a conversational way to describe natural selection, but a more technical description speaks of differential rates of survival and reproduction. That is, rather than labeling species as more or less fit, one can describe how many offspring they are likely to leave under given circumstances. Drop a fast-breeding pair of small-beaked finches and a slower-breeding pair of large-beaked finches onto an island full of food seeds. Within a few generations the fast breeders may control more of the food resources. Yet if large beaks more easily crush seeds, the advantage may tip to the slow breeders. In a pioneering study of finches on the Gal?pagos Islands, Peter R. Grant of Princeton University observed these kinds of population shifts in the wild [see his article "Natural Selection and Darwin's Finches"; Scientific American, October 1991].

The key is that adaptive fitness can be defined without reference to survival: large beaks are better adapted for crushing seeds, irrespective of whether that trait has survival value under the circumstances.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.

This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.

These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Gal?pagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.

The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.

4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.

No evidence suggests that evolution is losing adherents. Pick up any issue of a peer-reviewed biological journal, and you will find articles that support and extend evolutionary studies or that embrace evolution as a fundamental concept.

Conversely, serious scientific publications disputing evolution are all but nonexistent. In the mid-1990s George W. Gilchrist of the University of Washington surveyed thousands of journals in the primary literature, seeking articles on intelligent design or creation science. Among those hundreds of thousands of scientific reports, he found none. In the past two years, surveys done independently by Barbara Forrest of Southeastern Louisiana University and Lawrence M. Krauss of Case Western Reserve University have been similarly fruitless.

Creationists retort that a closed-minded scientific community rejects their evidence. Yet according to the editors of Nature, Science and other leading journals, few antievolution manuscripts are even submitted. Some antievolution authors have published papers in serious journals. Those papers, however, rarely attack evolution directly or advance creationist arguments; at best, they identify certain evolutionary problems as unsolved and difficult (which no one disputes). In short, creationists are not giving the scientific world good reason to take them seriously.

5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.

Evolutionary biologists passionately debate diverse topics: how speciation happens, the rates of evolutionary change, the ancestral relationships of birds and dinosaurs, whether Neandertals were a species apart from modern humans, and much more. These disputes are like those found in all other branches of science. Acceptance of evolution as a factual occurrence and a guiding principle is nonetheless universal in biology.

Unfortunately, dishonest creationists have shown a willingness to take scientists' comments out of context to exaggerate and distort the disagreements. Anyone acquainted with the works of paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University knows that in addition to co-authoring the punctuated-equilibrium model, Gould was one of the most eloquent defenders and articulators of evolution. (Punctuated equilibrium explains patterns in the fossil record by suggesting that most evolutionary changes occur within geologically brief intervals--which may nonetheless amount to hundreds of generations.) Yet creationists delight in dissecting out phrases from Gould's voluminous prose to make him sound as though he had doubted evolution, and they present punctuated equilibrium as though it allows new species to materialize overnight or birds to be born from reptile eggs.

Read the full article here - http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist&print=true
 
the really sad thing is that they even have to write this article


a link would be nice, nemesis
 
The article, unfortunatly, will not change anything. Creationists have the ultimate fallback - they just "the bible is the indisputable word of god" and in they're minds, they've won.
 
I remeber when this thread would have been about the latest Isreali killed by a Palestinian armed with machine guns.
 
This thread is very much pointless.
 
not really .it directly answers questions that creationists always use to dismiss evolution

I dont see why christians are so angry over evolution ..the only solution I've been able to come up with is that they cant disprove it nor can they prove their own creation myth. It's always been a sore spot because they cant directly challenge evolution in a logical manner so they turn to ridicule and scorn
 
This thread is very much pointless.

Welcome to the Politics forum, enjoy your stay and refrain from adding to the pointlessness in the future please.

Creationists amuse me terribly. A lot of hellfire and brimstone open-air preachers, all of whom are extremely polarized fundamentalist conservatives, come to the UNC campus to shout at students about being whoremongers and homo-lovers. (Two youtube videos of these dudes: one and two.) It's always terribly amusing, because I can then skip class and argue with them in front of 100-300 people. Maybe I should print this out and give it to them... although it wouldn't work, they're the most intractable bastards on the planet.
 
This thread is very much pointless.

whenever i see a thread i dont like i usually just ignore it....im not compelled to give my reasoning for not liking it, try doing the same and stop wasting space.
 
I just dont understand how one of the worlds leading nations in terms of innovation, technological medical and scientific advancements can still produce people who for all intents and purposes are throwbacks to the middle ages of fear and superstition


hey tyguy havent seen you in awhile, welcome back
 
Obviously Scientific American is kind of preaching to the choir (how many creationists do you think subscribe?), but its a good reference if anyone you know tries to advocate one of those dumbass points.
 
Ace just gets his panties bunched because he's a Jesus Freak (rawk).
 
Welcome to the Politics forum, enjoy your stay and refrain from adding to the pointlessness in the future please.

This isn't the politics forum, this is The Lounge.
 
Obviously Scientific American is kind of preaching to the choir (how many creationists do you think subscribe?), but its a good reference if anyone you know tries to advocate one of those dumbass points.

It helps to educate people on answering those questions that creationists ignorantly ask.
 
I just dont understand how one of the worlds leading nations in terms of innovation, technological medical and scientific advancements can still produce people who for all intents and purposes are throwbacks to the middle ages of fear and superstition

Our constitution allows people the choice of remaining ignorant of the world. Unfortunately, a lot of them take it up on the offer.
 
The article, unfortunatly, will not change anything. Creationists have the ultimate fallback - they just "the bible is the indisputable word of god" and in they're minds, they've won.
Believe it or not, I actually know a few Christians who believe in evolution to a certain degree. (and some who believed in it totally, saying nobody knows what Adam and Eve first looked like) They say this because, 'the word of God' was not meant to be a science book.
 
I don't take the bible as the ultimate and finalized word of God, and no one knows what really happened in those 7 days. (Not really days.)

God is EXTREMELY vague
 
I don't take the bible as the ultimate and finalized word of God, and no one knows what really happened in those 7 days. (Not really days.)

God is EXTREMELY vague

then why do christians take a strict bible interpretation when condemning homosexuality? or marriage or ordaining of women (granted that's a catholic specific thing) you cant pick and choose which parts of the bible is open to interpretation and which are not
 
That article is older than the Earth (so approximately 6000 years).

Anyway, the kind of creationists that the article speaks to are not the dangerous ones, they're like the village idiot that you laugh at. The dangerous ones are those that sound vaguely scientific and use phrases like "irreducible complexity", like the folks at Answers in Genesis.
 
The article does make a few of its points in reference to just those very people though. And the village idiots unfortunately nonetheless find a lot of traction among America's ignorant.

Bush is no man of science. But his utterance of something as magnificently stupid as "The jury is still out" in regards to evolution probably resulted in nationwide head-nodding.
 
then why do christians take a strict bible interpretation when condemning homosexuality? or marriage or ordaining of women (granted that's a catholic specific thing) you cant pick and choose which parts of the bible is open to interpretation and which are not

No you cant and thats the problem, the Bible and christianity itself really no core system anymore because over time it has been doctrined and edited to shit, to suite the needs of people in history. Its plainly obvious because for example a core belief of christianity is 'thou shall not kill' yet its ok to kill homosexuals, or slaughter thousands of muslims in 'Holy Wars'. The entire sodding book contradicts itself and doesnt make any sense, mainly because I think its just been twisted around so many times over time, and the original texture is pretty much none existant.
 
No you cant and thats the problem, the Bible and christianity itself really no core system anymore because over time it has been doctrined and edited to shit, to suite the needs of people in history. Its plainly obvious because for example a core belief of christianity is 'thou shall not kill' yet its ok to kill homosexuals, or slaughter thousands of muslims in 'Holy Wars'. The entire sodding book contradicts itself and doesnt make any sense, mainly because I think its just been twisted around so many times over time, and the original texture is pretty much none existant.
That's not true, the bible has been the same since it was first put together
 
That's not true, the bible has been the same since it was first put together

So for 6000 years, you think that not one person would have touched a word of that book, that Jesus rallied his followers to kill all homosexuals back in his day? I sincerely doubt it.
 
The sixth commandment is alternatively translated as "Thou shall not murder", and murder is defined as unlawful killing.

If you accept that translation, then quite a lot of the bloodshed makes sense.
 
Jesus would have been against the crusades.
The crazy Christians who make fools of themselves are extremely misguided... not Christians at all, really..

Evil Christians!

I swear to god I'll pistol whip the next guy who says chrisitans..
 
Let us circlejerk in peace, Ace.
 
woop.jpg
 
threadpic.jpg

I think this ad is most appropriate.

After all, this is AtheistLife2.net.
 
So for 6000 years, you think that not one person would have touched a word of that book, that Jesus rallied his followers to kill all homosexuals back in his day? I sincerely doubt it.

If you can find me a single quote of Jesus telling anyone to kill anyone else, I'll eat my hat.

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone"
 
I love that quote, it invites those who are pure of sin to sin.

Possibly.

In another context.

Yeah, you could be right. The only person pure of sin standing there at the time was Jesus.
 
The dangerous ones are those that sound vaguely scientific and use phrases like "irreducible complexity", like the folks at Answers in Genesis.
I went to their website and read the whole thing, they cover that too.
 
Jesus sounds like a nice person, don't you think? :p





Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:10, 12

He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20-24

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) Matthew 15:4-7

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6

etc. char.
 
then why do christians take a strict bible interpretation when condemning homosexuality? or marriage or ordaining of women (granted that's a catholic specific thing) you cant pick and choose which parts of the bible is open to interpretation and which are not

Well really the seven days are just more open to interpretation where as "Penis never touch penis!" is pretty blunt.

And the bible says nothing on ordaining women.
 
Im sorry, but my house is more likely to struck by lighting 10 times in succession on this nice day, than for Jesus to have said any of that crap.

I hope you have decent earthing.
 
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