A Grim Day for the UK

[15357]

I have no idea why you guys are so unhappy. Its just some damn ID cards, for gods sake. They aren't ****ing cameras or secret microphones. They will just have your information and picture (and perhaps a location device in the future which only the goverment could use, maybe).


I wish that we had those here (or I think we are getting them). It would really lessen crime and make identification a whole lot easier.


EDIT: BTW, I think most of you guys are taking your rights and 'liberties' for granted. They aren't. They only exist because your regional goverment has laws that provide security to your rights. Let us not forget that while you may have the right to kick the goverment around, it only exists because the goverment says so. It also has the military and police given right to kick you around.

 

[OvA]

While America has it's share of troubles this is one of the reasons I'm proud to be American.

 

[15357]

While America has it's share of troubles this is one of the reasons I'm proud to be American.

What, your awesomely devided political power that make govermental uneffectivness? From what I have read in history, there was one time that America's deviding lead almost to a National Guard vs Federal Troops battle.

Not that I have anything against America or its policies...

 

[Laivasse]

EDIT: BTW, I think most of you guys are taking your rights and 'liberties' for granted. They aren't. They only exist because your regional goverment has laws that provide security to your rights. Let us not forget that while you may have the right to kick the goverment around, it only exists because the goverment says so. It also has the military and police given right to kick you around.

You're actually absolutely right about rights being taken for granted. But I'd say that the people taking those rights for granted are the ones not complaining.

We didn't always have the rights we have now. The right to an elected government, right to a fair trial, human rights, etc etc - all of these things only exist because at some point in the past because enough people kicked up enough fuss to make the ruling class acknowledge them. However as time goes by, governments by their nature try to consolidate their power in numerous small ways, removing a little by-law here, extending their own power a little bit over there, and so forth.. until they get to where they're in a position to make major infringements on the rights of a populace, by trying to pass detention without trial or whatever.

When it gets to that point it's the people who do take their rights for granted - the people who assume that their rights always existed and always will exist - that stay silent. It might be different in Korea, but in the UK there are a lot of people who still remember that the government are there because we put them there. We've damn well cut heads off of kings in the past and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, so I don't see why it can't be done to prime ministers!
(note: joke, Tony, eeeeiyyy :cheers: )

(...KILL!!)

 

[OvA]

What, your awesomely devided political power that make govermental uneffectivness? From what I have read in history, there was one time that America's deviding lead almost to a National Guard vs Federal Troops battle.

Not that I have anything against America or its policies...

Atleast we're not brainwashed :dozey:

 

[15357]

Atleast we're not brainwashed :dozey:

If being happy and caring for my nation and the glorious fatherland is being brainwashed, then brainwashed I am! :dozey:

 

[Sainku]

America's deviding lead almost to a National Guard vs Federal Troops battle.

I have never heard of this almost battle or great deviding. Perhaps super secret censor ninjas have prevented me from seeing the horrible truth though.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

lollersk8tes

 

[Dog--]

It's funny how there is never anything bad about Canada in the news (besides the crapped out subs that Britain sold us), go Canada!

 

[bigburpco]

In other nations it's always been like this. For the UK, it's just a stupid little change, which I doubt would degrade the Government's standard. And it doesn't go anywhere near to invading privacy. It's also a document that can be used to facilitate certain important uses like taxes and all that shit. Doesn't really change a thing except more taxes, which I think would probably be the only problem.

 

[15357]

I have never heard of this almost battle or great deviding. Perhaps super secret censor ninjas have prevented me from seeing the horrible truth though.

lol. It was about some racial issues and I forgot some details but some state's national guard tried to prevent some black kids from going to schools and the federal troops stoped them preventing....

It was in a history book.

 

[Sulkdodds]

EDIT: BTW, I think most of you guys are taking your rights and 'liberties' for granted. They aren't. They only exist because your regional goverment has laws that provide security to your rights.

I saw an article talking about how free speech isn't an inalienable right, and that it's been given to us. Well, no shit Sherlock. Way to miss the point. It should be. Nothing's for granted. We have to make things inalienable.

 

[Llama]

Unless it directly messes with the rights of another person.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I have no idea why you guys are so unhappy. Its just some damn ID cards, for gods sake. They aren't ****ing cameras or secret microphones. They will just have your information and picture (and perhaps a location device in the future which only the goverment could use, maybe).


I wish that we had those here (or I think we are getting them). It would really lessen crime and make identification a whole lot easier.


EDIT: BTW, I think most of you guys are taking your rights and 'liberties' for granted. They aren't. They only exist because your regional goverment has laws that provide security to your rights. Let us not forget that while you may have the right to kick the goverment around, it only exists because the goverment says so. It also has the military and police given right to kick you around.

Around here the military and police are made up of (for the most part) individuals who usually support the second amendment and keeping the government small. Whether they are conservative or not themselves most people can agree that military/police people are usually conservative in the traditional sense of the word (not neo con) and favor the people keeping the government in check.

If push came to shove on a matter, you'd see people with the keys to quite a bit of military equipment, funding, training, manpower, etc come to the side of the just. Soldiers serve the constitution, not any man.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I am not paying that kind of money for a rather useless card. I already have to pay for a passport and such.

I'd like to add, in 3 years I'll have just about left University with a lot of debt and will be looking for a serious job.. I will NOT be able to afford to spent £300 just like that.

 

[Llama]

DONT VOTE LABOUR!

 

[15357]

I saw an article talking about how free speech isn't an inalienable right, and that it's been given to us. Well, no shit Sherlock. Way to miss the point. It should be. Nothing's for granted. We have to make things inalienable.

Unless it directly messes with the rights of another person.

Or the best interests of the nation.

Around here the military and police are made up of (for the most part) individuals who usually support the second amendment and keeping the government small. Whether they are conservative or not themselves most people can agree that military/police people are usually conservative in the traditional sense of the word (not neo con) and favor the people keeping the government in check.

If push came to shove on a matter, you'd see people with the keys to quite a bit of military equipment, funding, training, manpower, etc come to the side of the just. Soldiers serve the constitution, not any man.

Oh, ok.

 

[Llama]

Or the best interests of the nation.

Absolutely not. "The Nation" is made up of people, chosen by and for the people. The best interests of the people must come before the nation

 

[15357]

Absolutely not. "The Nation" is made up of people, chosen by and for the people. The best interests of the people must come before the nation

Um... Thats what I meant.

But not just some selfish people, but the whole of the nation.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Llama: of course unless it infringes on other people's rights.
Numbers: That leads to speech against the government being illegal. Wooo!

So, don't vote labour. But then, the alternative is voting the Tories. They might be okay, but then again, I totally don't trust David Cameron. And not just because he's an evil robot from the future. Also because he hasn't outlined his policies in the slightest yet.

My prediction for the next election: Labour will win, but with a very small majority. For the next four years it will lose all by-elections until finally the next election comes and David Cameron gets a huge majority.

 

[Llama]

Um... Thats what I meant.

But not just some selfish people, but the whole of the nation.

Oh, okay. Fair do's

 

[gick]

My prediction for the next election: Labour will win, but with a very small majority. For the next four years it will lose all by-elections until finally the next election comes and David Cameron gets a huge majority.

By which time (if all goes according to plan) I shall be a Lib Dem MP, fighting for free speech, relaxed drug laws and a copy of HL3 for every schoolchild!

 

[JellyWorld]

Would someone please explain to me

1. What's the use of this card.
2. Why is everyone up in arms over it.

 

[dream431ca]

Well, there goes some of your freedom. Personally I wouldn't mind too much.

 

[Llama]

Plus, i think its basically useless.

 

[clarky003]

Would someone please explain to me

1. What's the use of this card.
2. Why is everyone up in arms over it.

1. Further verification of your identity, planned to contain biometric and other physical data about a person when further legislation is put forward.

2. They will be manditory and predicted cost per person is outrageous considering that there is no guarantee that it will have any significant impact in increasing security, then in contrast the effort and extra money needed to have them introduced seems obsurd.

Although people won't have any of it, there will be referendum or everyone in England will personally be queing up to bitch slap the primeminister.

 

[Solaris]

Resist. These bastards won't get me. To the Irish Embasy!

 

[Nat Turner]

Lol, your "free" country of England is looking much like a totalitarian state after this measure. I hope you're happy, ya brits. This is what you get for paying your taxes and giving up your rights. Can you resist the government? Nope, you gave away all your guns to your nanny government! (AKA "Big Brother")

 

[Nat Turner]

Well, there goes some of your freedom. Personally I wouldn't mind too much.

Yeah, freedom is so pointless until you're stuck in a prison chamber indefinitely.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

funny, the patriot act here in America is much worse than this little card- yet no-one made that much of a fuss over it. You british dudes really don't like to give up your freedoms, do you?

 

[Nat Turner]

funny, the patriot act here in America is much worse than this little card- yet no-one made that much of a fuss over it. You british dudes really don't like to give up your freedoms, do you?

Actually, your card system is very comparable than the Patriot Act. In America there is no national ID system. Also note that your country has other anti-terror laws, so this is just more shit for ya.

 

[Cooper]

Well, you guys are the ones who gave up your guns.

 

[Nat Turner]

Well, you guys are the ones who gave up your guns.

They don't like their rights across the pond. It's nothing special these days. Anything to minimize the "threat of violence" goes... seems they forget the fact that everyone dies sooner or later.

 

[Llama]

1. Further verification of your identity, planned to contain biometric and other physical data about a person when further legislation is put forward.

Source?

 

[Kangy]

They don't like their rights across the pond. It's nothing special these days. Anything to minimize the "threat of violence" goes... seems they forget the fact that everyone dies sooner or later.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/13/newsid_2543000/2543277.stm

This is why guns were given up and such laws were made against buying them. If this happens again, I'd happily accept re-legalization of them, but I think we should try it first at least.

 

[gick]

Lol, your "free" country of England is looking much like a totalitarian state after this measure. I hope you're happy, ya brits. This is what you get for paying your taxes and giving up your rights. Can you resist the government? Nope, you gave away all your guns to your nanny government! (AKA "Big Brother")

Do you want to stop with all this 'lolololol u dumb english dont like ur rights lolzz'? In case you had'nt noticed the vast majority of Brits on this forum are very opposed to all this legislation that could be construed as being totalitarianism. And besides, you are from the country that seems to think its ok for your government to wiretap whoever the hell they like, lock people up indefinitely without trial and were actually stupid enough to pass the Patriot act! Still, I guess the government wouldn't dare to do anything remotely authoritarian so long as you've still got yer guns!

Pot. Kettle. Black.

If any Americans are offended by this then I apologize, but i'm sick to death of this condescending, holier-than-thou BS being churned out by somebody who is clearly too blind to see what's going on in his own back yard.

 

[Rupertvdb]

Do you want to stop with all this 'lolololol u dumb english dont like ur rights lolzz'? In case you had'nt noticed the vast majority of Brits on this forum are very opposed to all this legislation that could be construed as being totalitarianism. And besides, you are from the country that seems to think its ok for your government to wiretap whoever the hell they like, lock people up indefinitely without trial and were actually stupid enough to pass the Patriot act! Still, I guess the government wouldn't dare to do anything remotely authoritarian so long as you've still got yer guns!

Pot. Kettle. Black.

If any Americans are offended by this then I apologize, but i'm sick to death of this condescending, holier-than-thou BS being churned out by somebody who is clearly too blind to see what's going on in his own back yard.

Quoted for a bit of truth. Antagonising British citizens for their lack of rights is a bit pointless seeing as we are one of the most liberated and stable multi-cultural societies around. Especially coming from a nation which has been willingly sacrificing or accepting the abuse of (I can't tell which) primary parts of its constitution over the last 5 years.

But enough shennanigans, this law sucks; it's a ridiculous waste of resources that could be more efficiently spent elsewhere. Charles Clark is a big fat douche, and I hope that he chokes on his own pomposity in the near future. End.

 

[$kelet0r]

The second coming of the Libs?

 

[Venmoch]

Lol, your "free" country of England is looking much like a totalitarian state after this measure. I hope you're happy, ya brits. This is what you get for paying your taxes and giving up your rights. Can you resist the government? Nope, you gave away all your guns to your nanny government! (AKA "Big Brother")

No offence, but I'm quite happy seeing a doctor without having to pay money. And the free education that got me to this University.

And you don't need guns to overthrow a govenment. Anyone who believes that is crazy. Ever hear about Non Violent Protest? Besides, I of the belief that shooting government just makes it worse for yourself.

However, going on topic...

I unfortunatly fall into the "If you've got nothing to fear why worry?" camp and while that doesn't really help I can see peoples fears as to how its a system thats got more holes than swiss cheese. That is a problem. And the idea of paying upwards to £300 for a card is a little excessive. There'd be no way I could afford that

 

[Cormeh]

Take this or leave this, it was sent to me in an e-mail just now. I'm not sure if people have seen it or it's been posted before, but it's not my own work:

You may have heard that legislation creating compulsory ID Cards passed a crucial stage in the House of Commons.


You may feel that ID cards are not something to worry about, since we already have Photo ID for our Passport and Driving License and an ID Card will be no different to that. What you have not been told is the full scope of this proposed ID Card, and what it will mean to you personally.


The proposed ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register) where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the back of your eye, and your photograph. Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there.


There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence status and many other private and personal facts about you. There is unlimited space for every other details of your life on the NIR database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without further Acts of Parliament.


By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'.



Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every chemist, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented.


This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of Nat West, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licences will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.


Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database. If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a swipe.
If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card,or a supermarket loyalty card, or a driving licence you will have to present your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a mobile phone or an internet account.


Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for example) all run very detailed databases of their own. They will be allowed access to the NIR, just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number. These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally. It will then be possible for a non governmental entity to create a detailed dossier of all your activities.


Certainly, the government will have clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking, down to the level of what sort of bread you eat - all accessible via a single unique number in a central database.


This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name and face.


Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card. Whenever the details of how it will work are explained to them, they quickly change from being ambivalent towards it.


The Government is going to COMPEL you to enter your details into the NIR and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye scanned, you will not be able to get a passport.


Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.


The arguments that have been put forwarded in favour of ID Cards can be easily disproved. ID Cards WILL NOT stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a compulsory ID Card as did the Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not 'eliminate benefit fraud', which in comparison, is small compared to the astronomical cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE (London School of Economics). This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen, and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.


If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and you are unsettled as to what it really means to you, your country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues and everyone else you think should know and who cares.



The Bill has proceeded to this stage due to the lack of accurate and complete information on this proposal being made public.



Rebel, and rebel now before it's too late

I wouldn't say I exactly see a need for these cards, or really think much of them. The whole "third party buying information" part doesn't settle with me.