A prespective of a "Sunni Arab"

[hasan]

hi, do you remember me? some of you might .. I used to have lots of talk-wars with bush suppoerters and what not ..

anyway, for those who don't know, I'm from iraq, and .. read the title!
and btw, my english sucks, I don't really feel like proof-reading what I'm writing here .. I'm just gonna write off the top of my head! also my puncuation is garbage, so bear with me if you want to read on!

ok, so, it's been a while since I've been here, I just thought I might enlighten some of you as to what I think .. and I think that lot of my people (or my sect ) sahre my views. (I put a because we're really into sectarianism now .. no running away from it!) What I mean by enlighten is give you a hands-on opinion of a sunni arab

so, the elections, as many of you might have heard, sunnis are strongly willing to participate in the elections to have a say in the government .. and I'm one of those, I voted 2 days ago for 618 (jabhat al-tawafuk .. The Concord Front) which mainly includes the IIP (Iraqi Islamic Party).

Why did we vote? Well, because last time, shia took over, or more specifically, the badr militia and their political wing (now list number 555), and these militia perpotrated through the Iraqi Police and the National Guard, and started to carry out "revenge" attacks against sunni communities .. giving them hell. So we realized that this happened because we didn't "fight" them on the political front, so they got everything, and they got away with their crimes.
I can't stress enough how much sunnis were hurt and how much their daily live was being more and more hellish under this gov. and this police.

so anyway, does this participation mean that insurgency will weaken?
I think not, this has nothing to do with that, I mean, the shia only increased their "insurgent" activities (against sunnis) when they got political power!

The way I see it now, political activities go in parallel with armed resistance, not in the opposite direction!

The guardian published a report which said the insurgents in Ramadi guarded the polling stations and urged people to vote for 618.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1668829,00.html
I don't know if this story is true or not, but I wouldn't be too surprised.

Some might wonder, how can this happen when zarqawi and others are strongly opposed to the elections?
Well my friends, zarqawi (or abu zarga, as we call him) does not represent us and doesn't speak in our name!
One incident which I always bring up as evidence for this, is the incident of the assasination of Ayad Al-Izzy, a prominant sunni activist and a very popular one .. also a member of the Iraqi Islamic Party (which zarqawi really hates).
When he was killed, several groups (Islamic Army, Islamic resistance movement, Islamic front for the iraqi resistance, and probably others) issued statements denouncing the act and saying that Al-Izzy was a good man (etc).
look here for instance, http://siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications124605&Category=publications&Subcategory=0

so anyway, zarqawi responded by issuing a statement where he re-affirmed his hatred for such a man and for the iip (Iraqi Islamic Party) in general, saying that the "mujahideen" have an interest in killing al-izzy and "the likes of him".
see here: http://siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications126105&Category=publications&Subcategory=0

AL-Izzy was very active in encouraging sunnis to participate in the elections ..
There are things that I want to say but can't really find the proper words to describe them .. Ayad Al-Izzi wasn't just a man .. he was very effective and active, losing him was a real loss for sunnis and they were very saddened and angered by his assasination .. I can't express that or stress it enough.

The statement of the "Ismalic front for the iraqi resistance" was more involved, it spoke of the man as if he was one of them, not as if he is a member of the political office of the iip. I don't have an english transcript of the statement and can't really translate it from arabic!! it uses somewhat difficult terminology .. I tried running it thru systran but the result was a bunch of crap. But anyway, they said that they testify that he was a supporter of the mujahideen and vowed that his assasination will not stop them from continuing their fight!!!

so what was I saying?
Yeah, we will from now on insist on having a say in the matters of our future and refuse to let the future of our generations lie in the hands of those who betrayed their nation and brought this occupation and assisted it.
and it's not just that, these guys (555) are real thugs, they have an intimate hatered for us (sunnis) and strong loyalty to Iran. They are so bad, even Allawi had to say that they are worse than Saddam (even though Allawai was the star of the destruction of Fallujah).
I think americans are deliberatly letting the badr militia have their way, to force sunnis to participate in election .. sunnis now hate the badr militia more than they hate the americans! I mean, it seems to me that the Americans are letting badr do the dirty work, to make the Americans like like the good guys, or at least, a better alternative!! I think they somewhat stopped treating people bad in prisons, I've heared of several people who were arrested (by the americans) then released, and they said they were treated good!!
I don't know, I mean, I also heared that yesterday, during the elections in some sunni area, some police man (from badr) fired bullets in the air (apparently to scare sunni voters), but the americans immediatly reacted by arresting that guy and his boss!!
Dirty games .. sectarian tensions is now at a very critical point!!

anyway, enough blabbing ..
Did I say I was gonna enlighten anyone here?
So much for an enlightement!! lol!

 

[Shakermaker]

I hope you can answer this question for me, coz altho I work in journalism, I haven't got a clue: why do the Iraqi's keep fighting each other? You would think that after the fall of Saddam, people would want to make amends with each other and start rebuilding their country, but the contrary is the fact. They are just blowing each other up, shooting each other, beheadings what not .... It seems so counter-productive. I can understand the resistance against the American presence, but the in-fighting baffles me.

 

[The Monkey]

Hasan, where have you been hiding?

It's good to have a voice from an Iraqi on this matter.

 

[SAJ]

Hope you will be able to participate in the debates here Hasan. We could do with a level-headed perspective from someone with first hand knowledge of the area.

Edit: Not being mean , but I couldnt let this pass

coz altho I work in journalism, I haven't got a clue

Oh , if only all journalists were so honest.

 

[CptStern]

hey hasan! long time no see.

your perspectives are always welcome here ...please continue to post accounts on how real iraqis feel about the occupation as we westerners (I'm assuming you're still in calgary so you know what I mean) arent exposed to that side of the story ..all we see is what the coalition wants us to see. But bear in mind that many of us here (myself included) are not all that familiar with the history of the conflict between factions. Your comments are appreciated please stick around awhile

 

[Solaris]

Hmm intresting.

Hope you kepp enlightening us
Welcome back.

 

[hasan]

You have to keep in mind that I personally still don't have a first-hand experience of the situation, but I think I have a pretty good idea, as I have several contacts there, and I can imagine (to some extent) how things are.

I hope you can answer this question for me, coz altho I work in journalism, I haven't got a clue: why do the Iraqi's keep fighting each other?

(keep in mind that what I'm gonna say is technically subjective, but I believe it to be true).
There are two sources of this problem, really. The first, is "The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI)", or in general, the Iranian-oriented shia movement. They've been inducing hatered against Sunnis for years now, it was all hidden (under the sand .. if you know what I mean), but as soon as baghdad fell, it started to surface. They view the occupation as the Americans coming to help the shia against the sunnis, in general, they regard all the sunnis as supporters of saddam and/or terrorism. They've been promoting lies in the western media, saying that
1- shia are the majority and sunnis are the minority.
2- sunnis were priviliged under the rule of the "sunni" saddam, and now they've lost their priviliges, and that's why they hate the "liberators".

I don't know why the western media bought that!! but they bought it and it's too late now.
If you read the literature of these people .. it's full of hate!!!

The second source of problems, is the on the other end .. some thick/bone/pig/-headed people who want to kill everything and everyone who's not on their side (i.e. zarqawi). Althu these people are somewhat a minority in Iraq, but they are active (or at-least so it seems). However they don't receive any support from the Sunni communitites, because these people don't only attack the shia, they also attack sunnis who don't agree with them!!! :hmph:

Anyway, I honestly don't think that zarqawi is really out there, and if he is, he's probably not as active and/or involved as the media makes it seem.
I honestly think that all this commotion going on in iraq (explosions, etc.) are being conducted by intelligent agencies, whether it's iran, israel, or the u.s., I don't know, it could be all of them, some of them, or non of them!! However, I'm quiet certain that Iran is playing a dirty role in iraq, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
The Badr militia (AFAIK) was formed during the iraq-iran war, to support iran against iraq!!

 

[dantewilliams]

hey Hasan maybe ill see you on my tour of duty in the next year!

 

[Apocalypse89]

They've been promoting lies in the western media, saying that
1- shia are the majority and sunnis are the minority.

CIA World Factbook

Religions:
Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%

Wikipedia

Religions: Muslim 95% (Shi'a 66%, Sunni 29%), Christian or other 5%

MSN Encarta

Muslims make up 96 percent of Iraq’s population. About 60 to 65 percent of the Muslims adhere to the Shia branch, and the rest adhere to the Sunni branch.

And an independent site to make you "whoamg establishment is teh evil" people happy.

It's nice to see a fellow Arab/Muslim on hl2.net, but that doesn't mean I'll let you spread misinformation, intentionally or not.

 

[dantewilliams]

CIA World Factbook

Religions:
Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%

Wikipedia

Religions: Muslim 95% (Shi'a 66%, Sunni 29%), Christian or other 5%

MSN Encarta

Muslims make up 96 percent of Iraq’s population. About 60 to 65 percent of the Muslims adhere to the Shia branch, and the rest adhere to the Sunni branch.

It's nice to see a fellow Arab/Muslim on hl2.net, but that doesn't mean I'll let you spread misinformation, intentionally or not.

good catch

 

[hasan]

Location: Bahrain

Apparently you are a "shi'i" so it's only natural that you promote the same idea.

All the sites that you provided are just a proof of my earlier claim "the western media bought it", but there is no official statistics that confirms it.

Anyway I don't want to argue with you, just presenting my pov.

 

[The Monkey]

Wait... ARe you actually saying that the Sunnis are in majority in Iraq?

 

[hasan]

If you count the kurds, then yes (they are sunnis), otherwise if you don't, I'd say we're about 40% to 50%

 

[Shakermaker]

Thanks for you extensive answer. I like the expression that it was hidden under the sand. That means it can re-appear anytime. Too bad it did.

Since you mentioned the Kurds .... They seem to live semi-autonomously in the North. Would it be an idea that the Shia would get their own semi-autonomous region in the south? I know the Sunni part of the country would have no big oil reserves to speak off. But if the oil business would be federally regulated with equal ammounts of oil sales going to the three different population groups / semi-states, this would be taken care off.

You know, the Iraqi problem is starting to resemble the Balkan a bit. President Tito kept the different population groups together, for good and for bad, but after he died, eventually all Hell broke loose. Saddam falls away and the in-fighting starts. Of course the circumstances are different, but there are some resemblances.

 

[Apocalypse89]

Apparently you are a "shi'i" so it's only natural that you promote the same idea.

All the sites that you provided are just a proof of my earlier claim "the western media bought it", but there is no official statistics that confirms it.

Anyway I don't want to argue with you, just presenting my pov.

True, I am a Shi'i, but that has no relevance to the debate. I'm just stating facts.

Every reputable source I can find says that the Shia are the majority of Iraq. I highly doubt that each and every one of these sources used the statements of an extreme religious political group as their only base for these statistics. And if there is no official statistic, doesn't that mean that Sunnis being the majority of Iraq could be just as false as the opposite?

In any case, I'm still happy to see that everyone is voting this time. It seems to have satisfied some of the terrorists, seeing how relatively peacefuls these elections are compared to previous ones.

 

[hasan]

True, I am a Shi'i, but that has no relevance to the debate. I'm just stating facts.

Every reputable source I can find says that the Shia are the majority of Iraq. I highly doubt that each and every one of these sources used the statements of an extreme religious political group as their only base for these statistics.

well, come to think of it, prior to the invasion, every reputable source said that iraq had wmd! what was the source? I'm guessing maybe ahmed el-chalabi!

And if there is no official statistic, doesn't that mean that Sunnis being the majority of Iraq could be just as false as the opposite?

Naturally that could be the case ..

Since you mentioned the Kurds .... They seem to live semi-autonomously in the North. Would it be an idea that the Shia would get their own semi-autonomous region in the south? I know the Sunni part of the country would have no big oil reserves to speak off. But if the oil business would be federally regulated with equal ammounts of oil sales going to the three different population groups / semi-states, this would be taken care off.

Well, imho, we didn't benefit much from the oil did we? all we got was wars and restlessness and watnot.
The problem with seperating the south is, first, there are sunni communities down there, if the 555 rule a separate country in the south, then these communities will be demolished! Secondly, if they separate they will most likely join iran, or iran would take it over (or something along those lines), if that happens, then the whole gulf will fall to iran sooner or later! At least the easter parts of saudi arabia will.

I know you're not talking about speration, but if they start to have a semi-state of their own then they will probably seperate sooner or later, and we don't want to open the door for that.

And yes, I know that what I'm talking about sounds like wild scenarios, but 4 years ago, who could've predicted what's happening now? Plus, we've been warning ever since before the invasion, that the US wants to break up Iraq into smaller countries .. everybody back then would've laughed at the thought, but look at things now!

 

[kirovman]

well, come to think of it, prior to the invasion, every reputable source said that iraq had wmd! what was the source? I'm guessing maybe ahmed el-chalabi!


Naturally that could be the case ..


Well, imho, we didn't benefit much from the oil did we? all we got was wars and restlessness and watnot.
The problem with seperating the south is, first, there are sunni communities down there, if the 555 rule a separate country in the south, then these communities will be demolished! Secondly, if they separate they will most likely join iran, or iran would take it over (or something along those lines), if that happens, then the whole gulf will fall to iran sooner or later! At least the easter parts of saudi arabia will.

I know you're not talking about speration, but if they start to have a semi-state of their own then they will probably seperate sooner or later, and we don't want to open the door for that.

And yes, I know that what I'm talking about sounds like wild scenarios, but 4 years ago, who could've predicted what's happening now? Plus, we've been warning ever since before the invasion, that the US wants to break up Iraq into smaller countries .. everybody back then would've laughed at the thought, but look at things now!

They wanted to split China into a North and South China during the late 1940s, which Stalin agreed with (but the Chinese didn't). They wanted to split Korea, and succeeded. They were integral in the role of splitting Germany into East and West. Which Stalin agreed with. I wouldn't be suprised if they wanted to split Iraq. By splitting countries, they can divide power, as well as concentrating conflict between the two newly formed countries, rather than against themselves.

If Iraq became divided up into two regions, there would be conflict between the two. Although, on the other hand, there isn't a second superpower to back up the less favoured region, so I'm not sure if the splitting would be quite so applicable.

Hmmm, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. The politics of it all is a lot deeper than what we read in the media.

 

[SAJ]

The politics of it all is a lot deeper than what we read in the media.

Once again for emphasis.


Need to add Vietnam to your list of countries that outside influences tried to split (in that case, unsuccessfully).

 

[K e r b e r o s]

so anyway, does this participation mean that insurgency will weaken?
I think not, this has nothing to do with that, I mean, the shia only increased their "insurgent" activities (against sunnis) when they got political power!

Actually, the insurgent activities increased due to their agendas (which have already dictated that an all out war against all Shias be waged, which infact caused some of your grievances for the retribution these Shia militias expelled upon alledged Al-Qaeda sympathsizer's.) For that, I have no other message then stop supporting your resistance. Militias only make democracies weak, and don't strengthen anything but Anarchy and civil war.

[Side Note: I hope your not joined with the war against the Shia's, because part of that war dictates upsetting their power. Doing that would resume the nations anarchy, and would force the troops stay to increase by five to seven years.]

Don't let their guns decide your will. You take your message to the polls and don't allow yourself to give favor to those who would in the long run, drive Iraq into the ground due to an extremist agenda of capitulating and enslaving western society.

For that last part, I'm glad to read you've renounced Al-Zarqwai and participated in your countries voting process. Keep him weak by keeping voting strong.

 

[hasan]

lol, you again, :|

Dude, zarqawi is on his own .. nobody buys what he says in iraq.

The hate clensing capmaigns waged by the badr militia have nothing to do with zarqawi, they just have an intimate hate for us, they've had since before 1990.

 

[hasan]

For that last part, I'm glad to read you've renounced Al-Zarqwai and participated in your countries voting process. Keep him weak by keeping voting strong.

Ok ok ok .. let me clarify something:
We didn't vote to oppose Zarqawi .. as I said he's on his own .. that's not the point of participation.

The point is, we want to get rid of this government, and get a new balanced gov. where everyone has a say (including us ofcourse). Now, if this does not happen .. if the government stays, if the results get "forged" like the referruendum, if we don't get enough seats .. then everybody will see that this election is just a game which solves nothing on the ground, and that the political game is meaningless,then the voilance will increase, and we'll probably stop participating in politics,

and I'm afraid that even worse, we'll be heading towards a civil war.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

lol, you again

Yes, hi.

1- shia are the majority and sunnis are the minority.
2- sunnis were priviliged under the rule of the "sunni" saddam, and now they've lost their priviliges, and that's why they hate the "liberators".

The Shiites have always been the majority in Iraq -- its just until recently what with all of the attention on the possible climate of civil war between the two respective citizen classes, that the knowledge was surfaced.

I also believe the Baathist regime had a hand in the suppressing of these facts -- primarly because it knew if this knowledge reached the people it considered second class, then insurrection would be possible against it.

Dude, zarqawi is on his own .. nobody buys what he says in iraq.

If no one buys what he says in Iraq, how come CptStern and many others on the forum seem to have the conception that his ranks are swelled with angry Sunni's against the occupation?

Someone obviously buys it -- because, even if he's a minor power in Iraq (which he is'int, the massive Saudi-Syrian-Jordanian presence in his ranks will give him unlimited numbers until Al-Qaeda is completely dissolved from the inside out) he still remains the most dangerous out of all the insurgent forces.

We didn't vote to oppose Zarqawi .. as I said he's on his own .. that's not the point of participation.

So, if he's on his own, and you don't nessecarly oppose him -- then your giving him a silent answer; one that can be interepted to mean your fine with what he does, but you won't show support as it will ney your nuetrality for the insurgent forces.

I mean, are you okay with this man slaughtering your neighbors and taking the perspective that all Shia should be wiped out, and then having your Sunni bretheren follow his message?

and I'm afraid that even worse, we'll be heading towards a civil war.

Then its up to you to choose a path of bloodshed or peace -- no one chooses that for you. Good luck, and I hope you get seats! ... [murmur: Just renounce your resistance and disarm otherwise ... you won't get any!]

 

[hasan]

We didn't vote to oppose Zarqawi .. as I said he's on his own .. that's not the point of participation.

So, if he's on his own, and you don't nessecarly oppose him -- then your giving him a silent answer; one that can be interepted to mean your fine with what he does

This is why I hate arguing with you ..

I didn't say we don't oppose him, I said the purpose of voting wasn't to oppose him! get it? (if you say no I will smash you with my hammer jammer whatever).

Read in my first post the part about Ayad Al-Izzy.
Infact, I talk in arabic forums against zarqawi, and some of his supporters argue with me that I should be talking against americans instead! Now you're doing the same thing to me, just the other way around (you've always done it).

btw, are you in Iraq? I think you said some long time ago that you're going there .. but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, the "independent" committe announced early results where 555 got %58 and we (618) got only %19 in Baghdad. This is rediclious ..
bad thigns will happen now.

Just renounce your resistance and disarm

Not gonna happen!

 

[K e r b e r o s]

This is why I hate arguing with you ..

Fine. You take all the attention! I did'nt want it in the first place ... [OT]

I didn't say we don't oppose him, I said the purpose of voting wasn't to oppose him!

Wether or not you like it, when you vote, your casting your voice against the Insurgent forces and the Militias. I was hoping to bring that to your realization but evidently, you took it all the wrong way.

No hard feelings.

Infact, I talk in arabic forums against zarqawi, and some of his supporters argue with me that I should be talking against americans instead! Now you're doing the same thing to me, just the other way around (you've always done it).

You could've just said this before. I mean, I pretty clearly asked you wether or not you supported his fight against all the Shia's ...

Not gonna happen!

Only the archaic go extinct. Militias help countries to fall, not stand. We have our own militias here in America, and even we don't like them because of their extremist beliefs.

I would hope your support goes more to the ballot then the blade.

 

[hasan]

shia and kurds have their militia .... unfortunatly these milita point their guns at us, not at the americans.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Ahem* Pardon me ...

Too bad indeed. But, complain to the Zarqwaites, not us. We can't change it.