A strange (british?) hypocrisy?

[Rupertvdb]

I'm hoping someone here is a British muslim (whatever that means really) of at least some political hue so I can get a decent answer, so here goes.

While numerous "muslim" organisations are becoming increasingly active on the British political scene particularly with regards protesting against a perceived offensive against the muslim world (from the illegitimacy of sharia law in the UK to the Iraq affair) they have made very little noise when it comes to condemning the criminal actions of forces within the muslim world. e.g. where is the indignation over the crisis in Sudan?

Am I even correct in thinking that less noise is being made about these issues? Does it matter? Is there an inherent hypocrisy in the conduct of these political movements? Discuss...

 

[kirovman]

Is that the case definatively, or is it just that the media pays that kind of protest less attention?

 

[Rupertvdb]

that's partially what I'm asking. Although I live in one of if not the most Muslim parts of the UK and I have yet to see anything of the kind. I don't really think anything is being ignored at all, the press aren't quite as bad as people seem to make them out to be.

 

[Ome_Vince]

its true, alot of (muslim) parties seem to not focus at all on the crimes within the muslim world. The Genocide in Sudan is a good example, as is here another one: nobody gives a shit about the Kurds, ever hear or them on the news?
Yet they're one of the largest oppressed refugee populations...
Though its not just British, its global.
Yet i guess alot of parts of world likes to focus on areas which are more in their "interest"

I wish THIS thing would get the attention Iraq gets in the media ...

 

[repiV]

that's partially what I'm asking. Although I live in one of if not the most Muslim parts of the UK and I have yet to see anything of the kind. I don't really think anything is being ignored at all, the press aren't quite as bad as people seem to make them out to be.

It takes quite some nerve for them to constantly kick up a fuss and protest about the policies of the country that welcomed them in from whatever Middle Eastern shitholes they came from with open arms, when that country would be better off without them and the problems they cause.
To stay silent or lend support when their gracious hosts are attacked, and start burning embassies and bombing when cartoons of Mohammed are printed.
Then you've got that whole Pope malarkey. "Hey, the Pope called us violent! How dare he! Let's go blow some shit up."

Islamic hypocrisy is truly astounding. But at least we're "fair" and "tolerant" by letting them destroy what we have built over millenia, right?

 

[Beerdude26]

It takes quite some nerve for them to constantly kick up a fuss and protest about the policies of the country that welcomed them in from whatever Middle Eastern shitholes they came from with open arms, when that country would be better off without them and the problems they cause.
To stay silent or lend support when their gracious hosts are attacked, and start burning embassies and bombing when cartoons of Mohammed are printed.
Then you've got that whole Pope malarkey. "Hey, the Pope called us violent! How dare he! Let's go blow some shit up."

Islamic hypocrisy is truly astounding. But at least we're "fair" and "tolerant" by letting them destroy what we have built over millenia, right?

You're veering off to the right, to be honest.

You need to know that there are also non-violent muslims in the world. I know, it seems hard to believe

And those muslims sympathize with us, and say "Indeed, those rioting people aren't even worthy of the term 'muslim'. They are terrorists."

 

[repiV]

You're veering off to the right, to be honest.

You need to know that there are also non-violent muslims in the world. I know, it seems hard to believe

And those muslims sympathize with us, and say "Indeed, those rioting people aren't even worthy of the term 'muslim'. They are terrorists."

I know. I have a friend who's a strict Muslim. Absolutely lovely lady. But she also fits in fine with our society, and spends time with British people as a matter of choice.
However, consider the figures. There are approximately two and a half million Muslims in this country. 22% of them consider the 7/7 bombers martyrs. That's 500,000 potential terrorists or terrorist supporters IN OUR OWN TERRITORY.
And they are outbreeding us. If we don't take action, they will be the majority population.
You know where the "war on terror" needs fighting? Right here, on our own soil. Halt all immigration from certain Middle Eastern countries, have stringent tests and cross-examinations on potential immigrants' views of our culture and of their past. Nip this problem in the bud, NOW. But no politician has the balls to do it. And we are, in one way or another, doomed because of it.
I had go to through a 9 month security clearance when I applied to MI5, and I'm just an ordinary white guy who lives in a Jewish area. Why is nothing of the sort applied to immigrants of Arabic origin?

 

[Beerdude26]

However, consider the figures. There are approximately two and a half million Muslims in this country. 22% of them consider the 7/7 bombers martyrs. That's 500,000 potential terrorists or terrorist supporters IN OUR OWN TERRITORY.

Yes, Islam is indeed a young religion (compared to the other major ones), and still has its 'children diseases'. However, those potential terrorists aren't terrorists just yet. And if you focus on integrating them into the society, they'll realize that what those bombers did was a stupid, stupid thing, and that that is not the way to exclaim your dissatisfaction to others.

And they are outbreeding us. If we don't take action, they will be the majority population.

Then start reproducing like mad. MAD, I tell you!

Seriously, you can't tell a part of the country's inhabitants not to procreate.

Government: "Stop ****ing, there's too many of you, ffs"
Group: "... Wut? :|"

You know where the "war on terror" needs fighting? Right here, on our own soil. Halt all immigration from certain Middle Eastern countries, have stringent tests and cross-examinations on potential immigrants' views of our culture and of their past. Nip this problem in the bud, NOW. But no politician has the balls to do it.

Do what Belgium is doing: Go to the countries, put down corporations. We get the cash, they get the jobs. They stay there, we get richer. Everyone's happy

I had go to through a 9 month security clearance when I applied to MI5, and I'm just an ordinary white guy who lives in a Jewish area. Why is nothing of the sort applied to immigrants of Arabic origin?

Because, um, you would need about 200,000 more administrative workers to do that task? (nine month security clearance for each immigrant? Phew )

 

[repiV]

Yes, Islam is indeed a young religion (compared to the other major ones), and still has its 'children diseases'. However, those potential terrorists aren't terrorists just yet. And if you focus on integrating them into the society, they'll realize that what those bombers did was a stupid, stupid thing, and that that is not the way to exclaim your dissatisfaction to others.

But nobody is focusing on integrating them into society. Instead, they worship at the altar of multiculturalism - which considers integration as racist and produces segregation.
What society do you have without shared values? No society at all! Multiculturalism is destroying society.

Then start reproducing like mad. MAD, I tell you!

Seriously, you can't tell a part of the country's inhabitants not to procreate.

Government: "Stop ****ing, there's too many of you, ffs"
Group: "... Wut? :|"

No - but you can refuse to let them in. Seriously, what do all these Muslim immigrants bring to this country? Do many of them have any specialist skills that can't be found among the local populace? No.
I don't qualify for a work visa for any other nation that I've looked at moving to (though I will do in a couple of years :thumbs: ) and I have a lot to offer. What gives?
Oh, wait, I qualify for the People's Republic of China. But that's not saying much.
We don't want them, we don't need them. The Middle East is the arse end of the world, and if they aren't willing to shed themselves of their backwards ways when they come over here, why the hell should we let them in?

Do what Belgium is doing: Go to the countries, put down corporations. We get the cash, they get the jobs. They stay there, we get richer. Everyone's happy

Not a bad idea; alternatively we could just leave them to rot in their glorious Sharia societies until they get the **** out of the 11th century and learn to live like civilised people as the rest of the world does.

Because, um, you would need about 200,000 more administrative workers to do that task? (nine month security clearance for each immigrant? Phew )

Well, it wouldn't have to be 9 months...

 

[Beerdude26]

But nobody is focusing on integrating them into society. Instead, they worship at the altar of multiculturalism - which considers integration as racist and produces segregation.
What society do you have without shared values? No society at all! Multiculturalism is destroying society.

I feel it enriches my life. Of course, I don't want their beliefs forced on me. But their lifestyle is also interesting, and as long as it's not bothersome, it's fine by me.

No - but you can refuse to let them in. Seriously, what do all these Muslim immigrants bring to this country? Do many of them have any specialist skills that can't be found among the local populace? No.
I don't qualify for a work visa for any other nation that I've looked at moving to (though I will do in a couple of years :thumbs: ) and I have a lot to offer. What gives?
Oh, wait, I qualify for the People's Republic of China. But that's not saying much.
We don't want them, we don't need them. The Middle East is the arse end of the world, and if they aren't willing to shed themselves of their backwards ways when they come over here, why the hell should we let them in?

Not a bad idea; alternatively we could just leave them to rot in their glorious Sharia societies until they get the **** out of the 11th century and learn to live like civilised people as the rest of the world does.

These two hang together: It were we who went to those countries, completely depraved them of their (then growing) economy, took away their natural resources, and sometimes even downright slaughtered their people. And now, they're looking for help. Because they got stuck in that '11th century' and want to get the **** out of it. This is why I feel it's important we should help them; for their bestwill and ours aswell

 

[repiV]

I feel it enriches my life. Of course, I don't want their beliefs forced on me. But their lifestyle is also interesting, and as long as it's not bothersome, it's fine by me.

But it IS bothersome. It's bothersome to the extent that it threatens our way of life, our freedom and our very existence.

These two hang together: It were we who went to those countries, completely depraved them of their (then growing) economy, took away their natural resources, and sometimes even downright slaughtered their people. And now, they're looking for help. Because they got stuck in that '11th century' and want to get the **** out of it. This is why I feel it's important we should help them; for their bestwill and ours aswell

Where did that happen in the Middle East? More importantly, where did it ever happen on such a scale that we are responsible for the state of that shithole?

 

[Beerdude26]

But it IS bothersome. It's bothersome to the extent that it threatens our way of life, our freedom and our very existence.

See my points on integration. BTW, it's not like when there are a lot of them, they're suddenly going to pull AK47s out of their asses and totally annihilate the army, navy and airforce

If they would 'plan' on 'taking over' your country, they would do it in a political way. And that's where the true danger lies. Make them realize that voting on an extreme party is bad.

A good example of this is Hezbollah, that extreme party in Lebanon. They got control of the country and they were at war a few months later.

Where did that happen in the Middle East? More importantly, where did it ever happen on such a scale that we are responsible for the state of that shithole?

India. Russia. Many other countries. They either all got colonized, OR started to colonize other countries themselves. For instance, Israel and Egypt are now quite well developed countries.

 

[repiV]

See my points on integration. BTW, it's not like when there are a lot of them, they're suddenly going to pull AK47s out of their asses and totally annihilate the army, navy and airforce

If they would 'plan' on 'taking over' your country, they would do it in a political way. And that's where the true danger lies. Make them realize that voting on an extreme party is bad.

It doesn't even have to be an extreme party. This is about protecting our core values, which come under attack when a society with values diametrically opposed to our own sets up shop here and gains political influence. It is a weak fool that willingly surrenders control of their society to a backwards-thinking outsider who offers them nothing. Europe is that weak fool.
By the way, you do remember the 7/7 bombings and the foiled terrorist plot, yes?

A good example of this is Hezbollah, that extreme party in Lebanon. They got control of the country and they were at war a few months later.

Solaris would have you know they're heroes of the modern age...

India. Russia. Many other countries. They either all got colonized, OR started to colonize other countries themselves. For instance, Israel and Egypt are now quite well developed countries.

I'm aware of the evils of Western imperial powers. However, India, Russia and Egypt are not in the Middle East. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Israel thing exactly.

 

[Beerdude26]

It doesn't even have to be an extreme party. This is about protecting our core values, which come under attack when a society with values diametrically opposed to our own sets up shop here and gains political influence. It is a weak fool that willingly surrenders control of their society to a backwards-thinking outsider who offers them nothing. Europe is that weak fool.
By the way, you do remember the 7/7 bombings and the foiled terrorist plot, yes?

The Koran is based off the Bible. Their values are not "diametrically opposed to our own". You do, however, have retards that think they have to take every single word in it completely literally. Those are the people who are dangerous. And they're in every religion.

But you are indeed correct that muslims are more easily influenced, and not in a positive way. You'll just have to influence them back to your side.

Solaris would have you know they're heroes of the modern age...

And that's the most dangerous thing in this age: Racism/Discrimination. Whenever a large group of people think another group of people is inferiour, a conflict arises. It happened in the Israel/Hezbollah war, it happened during the age of colonization, it happened during World War 2.

If we don't want that to happen, we have to stop extremist political parties from forming. Not only from their side, but from ours aswell. Because if we start to think like them, we become them.

I'm aware of the evils of Western imperial powers. However, India, Russia and Egypt are not in the Middle East. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Israel thing exactly.

Sorry, I'm a bit tired, and it's getting harder and harder for me to explain my points well.

What I meant was that those countries also had their fair share of problems. And don't forget that all the treasures and resources that were taken from the colonized countries, just added to our economical booming. So even if there are countries that weren't colonized, they still have an economical and often technological disatvantage in comparison to us.

 

[repiV]

The Koran is based off the Bible. Their values are not "diametrically opposed to our own". You do, however, have retards that think they have to take every single word in it completely literally. Those are the people who are dangerous. And they're in every religion.

But you are indeed correct that muslims are more easily influenced, and not in a positive way. You'll just have to influence them back to your side.

I'm not a Christian. I'd sooner spit on the bible.
We live in a secular society, not a Christian one. Theological comparisons of Islam and Christianity are irrelevant.

And that's the most dangerous thing in this age: Racism/Discrimination. Whenever a large group of people think another group of people is inferiour, a conflict arises. It happened in the Israel/Hezbollah war, it happened during the age of colonization, it happened during World War 2.

Conflict between nation-states rarely if ever has anything to do with feelings of superiority or racism. Rather, it is driven by conflict of interest. Usually over resources of one form or another...(the balance of power can be considered a resource).

If we don't want that to happen, we have to stop extremist political parties from forming. Not only from their side, but from ours aswell. Because if we start to think like them, we become them.

Sorry, I'm a bit tired, and it's getting harder and harder for me to explain my points well.

What I meant was that those countries also had their fair share of problems. And don't forget that all the treasures and resources that were taken from the colonized countries, just added to our economical booming. So even if there are countries that weren't colonized, they still have an economical and often technological disatvantage in comparison to us.

Tough. Life isn't fair. You don't see the Chinese sitting around whining about the advantages the West has. They're working hard, and they're making themselves the next major world power. Good for them.

 

[Beerdude26]

I'm not a Christian. I'd sooner spit on the bible.
We live in a secular society, not a Christian one. Theological comparisons of Islam and Christianity are irrelevant.

That doesn't make my answer less valid. Just pull them over to the side of secularity then

Conflict between nation-states rarely if ever has anything to do with feelings of superiority or racism. Rather, it is driven by conflict of interest. Usually over resources of one form or another...(the balance of power can be considered a resource).

True, conflict of interest is a valid reason aswell. But that it rarely has anything to do with superiority or racism? What about the crusades? World War 2? And, more recently, Hezbollah and Israel?

Tough. Life isn't fair. You don't see the Chinese sitting around whining about the advantages the West has. They're working hard, and they're making themselves the next major world power. Good for them.

But then again, China didn't get colonized and its natural resources sucked dry. Au contraire, it started to colonize itself, and has been an important world nation throughout history. I don't think we're justified to say that they're in a situation as Sierra Leone, for example.


The real topic is this: Christianity already had its crusades, wars and searches for expansion. Islam is going through them right now. The problem we face, is how we react to the situation. Do we let it continue and risk going into a full-out war? Or do we respond to it and try to handle the situation delicately, to avoid bloodshed?

 

[repiV]

That doesn't make my answer less valid. Just pull them over to the side of secularity then

Yes it does. In Western countries, fundamentalist Christians are ridiculed as insane, moronic whackjobs. Nobody listens to them. In many Middle Eastern countries, fundamentalist clerics are the leaders and visionaires of society.
In the West, we respect freedom of religion. In the Middle East, leave Islam and die.
See the difference? It's extremely important.

True, conflict of interest is a valid reason aswell. But that it rarely has anything to do with superiority or racism? What about the crusades? World War 2? And, more recently, Hezbollah and Israel?

You can easily find plenty of causes for all those wars that had nothing to do with racism.

But then again, China didn't get colonized and its natural resources sucked dry. Au contraire, it started to colonize itself, and has been an important world nation throughout history. I don't think we're justified to say that they're in a situation as Sierra Leone, for example.


The real topic is this: Christianity already had its crusades, wars and searches for expansion. Islam is going through them right now. The problem we face, is how we react to the situation. Do we let it continue and risk going into a full-out war? Or do we respond to it and try to handle the situation delicately, to avoid bloodshed?

Christianity already had its crusades - centuries ago. We have moved on as a civilisation immeasurably since then. Islam has not. Full-out war, you say? Sign me up.

 

[Beerdude26]

Yes it does. In Western countries, fundamentalist Christians are ridiculed as insane, moronic whackjobs. Nobody listens to them. In many Middle Eastern countries, fundamentalist clerics are the leaders and visionaires of society.
In the West, we respect freedom of religion. In the Middle East, leave Islam and die.
See the difference? It's extremely important.

And when they come over here, you teach them the importance of freedom of religion. That's a better idea than letting them radicalize even more because of extremist imams.

You can easily find plenty of causes for all those wars that had nothing to do with racism.

Well, duh
Although I'm not sure about the Crusades.
The important thing is, is that those wars were started through racism/discrimination. They often also held financial and economical gain, but that was just a nice perk.

In the Crusades, it was because the Turkish Empire had to be stopped from spreading, and, most importantly, wasn't allowed to reach Jerusalem, the holiest of holiest cities. They slaughtered masses of innocent civilians who didn't even support the Turks on their way there, but meh.

World War 2 started because of the search of more 'Lebensraum' (Loosely translated: Living space) for the Arian Race. And those damn inferior races took it away from them, so it was time to take it back.

The Hezbollah-Israel war happened because Hezbollah refused to recognise Israel as a state and saw Israeli people as their enemies, and captured them.

Christianity already had its crusades - centuries ago. We have moved on as a civilisation immeasurably since then. Islam has not. Full-out war, you say? Sign me up.

Yes, that's what I meant, Christianity has already gone through that phase. As a religion it has moved up, and our civilisation has secularized itself from Christianity. That is a scheme that Islam will probably also go through.

Anyway, I'm not going to slow you down. The first Crusade is in Iraq; please give your application to George Bush if you wish to join.

Good night, and good luck.

 

[repiV]

And when they come over here, you teach them the importance of freedom of religion. That's a better idea than letting them radicalize even more because of extremist imams.

Why would I want to waste my taxes on mind control for immigrants?
Just don't let them in.

Well, duh
Although I'm not sure about the Crusades.
The important thing is, is that those wars were started through racism/discrimination. They often also held financial and economical gain, but that was just a nice perk.

No, I think you'll find it's the other way around.

In the Crusades, it was because the Turkish Empire had to be stopped from spreading, and, most importantly, wasn't allowed to reach Jerusalem, the holiest of holiest cities. They slaughtered masses of innocent civilians who didn't even support the Turks on their way there, but meh.

Sounds like a power struggle and economic battle to me.

World War 2 started because of the search of more 'Lebensraum' (Loosely translated: Living space) for the Arian Race. And those damn inferior races took it away from them, so it was time to take it back.

That would be imperialism - economic and practical.

The Hezbollah-Israel war happened because Hezbollah refused to recognise Israel as a state and saw Israeli people as their enemies, and captured them.
Yes, that's what I meant, Christianity has already gone through that phase. As a religion it has moved up, and our civilisation has secularized itself from Christianity. That is a scheme that Islam will probably also go through.

And when it has gone through that, perhaps I'll be interested in talking to them. Until that time, as far as I'm concerned, they can stay in the Middle East and suicide bomb each other to their heart's content.

Anyway, I'm not going to slow you down. The first Crusade is in Iraq; please give your application to George Bush if you wish to join.

Good night, and good luck.

George Bush is a lunatic, and people who vote for him are idiots (although, what of the alternative?).
The Iraq war is just imperialism badly disguised behind a thin veil of "fighting terror".