AI Comparison: HL1 vs HL2: The solution?

[Insano]

I was wondering that with all those people saying that the AI in HL2 is even worse than in HL1 (I disagree with this) there should be a way to proove them wrong.

Then I came up with a map with symetric placed objects (walls) and two groups of enemies who would have to fight eachother: Grunts and Combines.

They should have the same damage, rate of fire, speed and health.

I can't do this because I suck in Hammer but maybe someone with some skills and some free time can do the trick.

Thanks in advance

 

[Kirkburn]

And perhaps also code the maps so the AI understand it? You seem to be missing the point of the AI - the maps have nodes so the AI 'understand' them. Therefore the AI can only be as good as the mapper's skills

 

[Insano]

And perhaps also code the maps so the AI understand it? You seem to be missing the point of the AI - the maps have nodes so the AI 'understand' them. Therefore the AI can only be as good as the mapper's skills

But they both have to have the same nodes.

 

[oldagerocker]

Therefore both will do the same thing, unless you put in old hl1 nodes against the more advanced hl2 nodes... the combine will always win. Im pretty sure the hl2 has more advanced AI, it's just the battles are set up just like the hl1 ones.

 

[semi-psychotic]

Therefore both will do the same thing, unless you put in old hl1 nodes against the more advanced hl2 nodes... the combine will always win. Im pretty sure the hl2 has more advanced AI, it's just the battles are set up just like the hl1 ones.

It's not just the nodes that are different; the AI scripting is different as well. You would have to create a mod where you could place HL1 grunts into HL2 and apply HL1's AI script to them.

 

[Blitzy]

And who won the war for earth? ya.

 

[Insano]

And who won the war for earth? ya.

Let them fight one more time! (rematch) :frown:

 

[Cypher19]

AFAIK, can't you make a HL1 map, run AI on that, and recompile the map for HL2 and run the same AI test?

 

[PvtRyan]

Anyone who thinks HL AI was better than HL2 AI should be shot. :|

 

[moggy]

Anyone who thinks HL AI was better than HL2 AI should be shot. :|

shall i take that as another insult from u then?? pvt

your anti-american remarks bore me now.


anyway, in my opinion, the hl1 force recon marines AI was better and a much more entertaining enemy to fight against. they would throw a grenade where it meant trouble. run around like crazy to flank your ass. shot gun u, run into cover to reload , work much better in a squad AI surrounding u faster. and if u got up close they would drop kick u and shotgun your ass.

overall they just seem to rule. and plus their radio chatter is muh more entertaining and they taunt u when in the firefight, saying things like "we will kick your ass!" i will never forget that.

the combines are much slower, walk into fire, take direct headshots hardly move in terms of AI tactics and they are very predictable.

it is probally because combines have had half thier brains removed.

 

[PvtRyan]

shall i take that as another insult from u then?? pvt

your anti-american remarks bore me now.

Anti-American? Ooookkkkaaaaaay......

If you really think HL1 AI is better, then you obviously haven't seen HL2 AI in full glory.

anyway, in my opinion, the hl1 force recon marines AI was better and a much more entertaining enemy to fight against. they would throw a grenade where it meant trouble. run around like crazy to flank your ass. shot gun u, run into cover to reload , work much better in a squad AI surrounding u faster. and if u got up close they would drop kick u and shotgun your ass.

Grenades? The Combine constantly throw grenades, and a whole lot more effective too. They really use it to flush you out, and position themselves to take you out when you run from cover.

HL2 AI definitely flanks your ass, and real good too. I build a maze map, with a few soldiers, two came after me, one threw a nade at me, the other one fired. I backed off, and from another path in the maze, this other soldier suddenly comes and shotguns me.
HL2 AI work better in squads, they take turns in attacking you, they cover eachother, alert eachother through hand- and radiosignals. Another great thing is that they almost never friendly fire, something you can't say of HL1 AI, where they will shoot eachother. In HL1, marines would put a grenade on the ground, and then step into it themselves or blow up some teammate.

Furthermore, HL1 AI was easy to shoot in the back, throw a grenade, they'll run away, and gun 'em in the back. HL2 AI will strafe shooting out of sight to cover.

overall they just seem to rule. and plus their radio chatter is muh more entertaining and they taunt u when in the firefight, saying things like "we will kick your ass!" i will never forget that.

Now that wouldn't make much sense for combine soldiers, now would it?
Their radio chatter makes more sense, it always fits the context, for example when they throw a grenade, they count down "6..5..4..3..2..1" and then they yell some other stuff and they move forward/flank. On top of that, they use handsignals too.

the combines are much slower, walk into fire, take direct headshots hardly move in terms of AI tactics and they are very predictable.

Combine AI will never just stand in front of you shooting, when you hide in a corner, they come strafing by, not standing still, and then move away (and let another squadmate attack you), making a one hit kill very hard. Don't know what you mean with 'taking direct headshots'. And they really do move, A LOT, if you position yourself out of their line of fire, they'll find a way to get you in their line of fire again.

But hey, I'm wasting my time here, you won't listen, not open for reasoning, nor for logic (why would Valve make the AI worse?).

 

[StAtiC]

Anyone who thinks HL AI was better than HL2 AI should be shot. :|

I must agree... It's sad really. That some think generic bots who stay in one position, move to new spot when they get shot and occasionally attack you... to be better than an AI system that ambushes you, flanks you and has the ability to surprise you and attack when you least expect. They use shotgunners w/ gernades to flush you out and mow you down with SMG's or pulse rifles. I'm not just speaking for the Combine AI. The resistance does a great job covering flanks and they tend to worry more about your life than theirs. Why do I care if some computer AI dies? I'm the important one. Besides, most of HL's AI is scripted... after they flank you, turn on godmode and move around. Will they ever flank you again? No.

 

[Ownzed]

How can you say that...HL2's AI is alot better than HL's..

 

[OD-Black_Fire]

I remember when I shot at 6 combine soldiers, and they split up. I ran over to them and they evenly split themselfs into and L formation, and promptly pwned my ass with secondary pulse rifle fire D:

 

[Sparta]

Sometimes they can be really good, sometimes they can be pretty average. its the same thing with all games now-a-days.

 

[moggy]

HL2 AI work better in squads, they take turns in attacking you, they cover eachother, alert eachother through hand- and radiosignals.

so do HL marines and they shout grenade and then run from it unlike combines. they signal by hand in silent too

But hey, I'm wasting my time here, you won't listen, not open for reasoning, nor for logic (why would Valve make the AI worse?).

i did not say they made it worse, its different. but i think in MY opinion that HL1 AI is more effective in some ways. and in MY opinion the marines are more frantic, yes ,but thiers is quicker and more brutal in a lot of ways.

but like i said its dfferent because after all these are 2 different enemies. in 2 different games. and yes i admit the combines AI is better in some ways like how they slyly pop in and out of cover to fire and then reload. which is quite effective.

i think the combines AI is made in a certain way to represent what they are aswell, sly but mindless killing machines.

and yes they do stand there in front of u and take bullets until they die.


oh and yes i find your signature racist.

 

[Danimal]

shall i take that as another insult from u then?? pvt

your anti-american remarks bore me now.


anyway, in my opinion, the hl1 force recon marines AI was better and a much more entertaining enemy to fight against. they would throw a grenade where it meant trouble. run around like crazy to flank your ass. shot gun u, run into cover to reload , work much better in a squad AI surrounding u faster. and if u got up close they would drop kick u and shotgun your ass.

Your anti-peacful remarks bore me now

But anyway. I like HL2's AI better. Sure, the marines throw grenades but combine do that as well. They also gunwhip your face if you charge at them with the crowbar. Lets just say it is even with the marines but I just like the combine AI better...

oh and yes i find your signature racist.

Ahem, I actually find it very funny. You don't need to tell him that it is racist, you don't have to read it. I could tell the proper way to deal with a 'racist' signature. But, I feel as if you are not worth it

 

[moggy]

Ahem, I actually find it very funny. You don't need to tell him that it is racist, you don't have to read it. I could tell the proper way to deal with a 'racist' signature. But, I feel as if you are not worth it

oh i know how i could deal with it. but that dosent stop me from tellng him. i dont have to read your moaning either

 

[f0rked]

so do HL marines and they shout grenade and then run from it unlike combines. they signal by hand in silent too

Lying about stuff doesn't really make me want to take your side on this one. The combine might not shout 'grenade', but they definitely take cover as best they can. The human marines only ever signal by hand when scripted.

 

[King John]

to begin with i didnt think that much for the hl2 AI, but when you play the game again and look for it its actually pretty impressive, the main obvious thing and difference is that the hl2 AI is not stupid, the hl1 AI were complete retards most of the time e.g. they would run up to you, then change thier mind and run away again all without firing while you pund the shit out of them. Now the hl2 AI are mostly complete campers, they will find cover and pop out for a quick burst at you, if you fire constantly where they would next pop out they are not dumb enough to stick thier head in it. If they run for new cover most of the time they wont care to give you a shot while they do so. I love the hl2 AI, they are not as fun to play against because they are infinatly more annoying, and thats how it would be, i like that.
Sure the metropolice are stupid, i admit that, but the AI in nova prospeckt is good, combine near turrets will use the turret (another really annoying thing they do) rarly do they suicide charge you. I dont know if youve noticed but the more damaged a combine is the more likely it is to camp and use grenades. I remeber fighting one on a roof in city 17 and it just went out of view and threw a barrage of grenades that killed my whole squad.

block text!

 

[semi-psychotic]

ATTENTION FORUM MONKEYS.

Yes, that means you. And me.

BEFORE you make any futher comparisons between HL1 AI and HL2 AI, be sure that you are playing both games on HARD mode, where the AI will shine.

Moggy claims that the HL2 AI will not run from grenades, while I have seen them do so. Please be sure you're running on Hard mode, Moggy.

 

[King John]

difference between hl1 easy and hard mode is negligble

 

[Parrot of doom]

I find the marines on HL1 much more difficult to kill than on HL2. The combine are just bloody slow.

 

[Asuka]

Anyone who thinks HL AI was better than HL2 AI should be shot. :|

Agreed!

 

[Smigit]

if the game wasnt so linear they could probably do more. Half the time you are fighting outdoors so nades arent as effective as they were in HL1, the other times your are fighting in corridors where the enemy doesnt have alot more choice but to bum rush you.

WHat i noticed in HL2 but was if you ran around a corner they usually wont plain follow you to be shot (well usually not) and that on the coast when u ran into a hut they would often camp the doors and windows instead of just rushing in. I think hl2's AI is better, just that the environments wasnt always the best to utilise it. But i thought marines looked cooler.

 

[Revenge]

Man you are random moggy... Please atleast attempt to remain coherent....

I was one of those that thought the AI in HL2 was pretty bad, but then I talked it over with my friends and they kept telling me about all these awesome flanking manouevers that the AI pulled on them and how they hunt you down when you hide.... And then it occured to me that the AI simply seemed bad for because I never gave them opportunities to do that sort of stuff to me...

I was, without realising it, exploiting the main weakness of HL2 AI, which is that they will charge into a room one at a time while you stand next to the door way plugging them with headshots one by one. They never got to try and flank me because I always camped them out at the single path chokepoints and didn't give them any other option but to either outcamp me or charge me. This weakness I can be put down the linearity of the HL2 levels. In most places there was only one path you could take, and the flanking options were very limited. I believe now that many of the AI problems we faced could have been fixed by adding in many Day of Defeat style alleyways and side corridors in the various levels so that while it was still a linear level, there was always an alternate route you (or your enemies) could take.

 

[ShadowFox]

HL2 has better AI.. but since HL1 has smaller arenas it is easier to make the AI in the first game seem more impressive.

 

[Plug]

I was surprised by the coolness of the hl2 AI heaps of times. Hl1 soldiers were loads of fun to fight, but c'mon, lets admit it here... they were plain stupid.

In fact, i had alot of fun teasing them.

Combine's have totally destroyed me (and resistance fighters) a number of times, usually to my surprise. Often with stupidly well placed grenades

A great place to show the AI shining is in the gun placing part of entanglement... there are a ton of ways you can do that part, and a couple of times i did it in a very difficult way.... allowing the combine to run in, hide behind a pillar, then knock over a gun turret while a shotgun guy would flank me. They f*cked my Sh*t right up! I laughed at how badly i got my ass kicked.

Give it a rest guys anyway. What are you expecting? A match of counterstrike with crackshot clan guys?

The game is designed to be beat, and be fun in the process - it achieved it for me tenfold. I'm about to play through for the 3rd time tonight

 

[moggy]

A great place to show the AI shining is in the gun placing part of entanglement... there are a ton of ways you can do that part, and a couple of times i did it in a very difficult way.... allowing the combine to run in, hide behind a pillar, then knock over a gun turret while a shotgun guy would flank me. They f*cked my Sh*t right up! I laughed at how badly i got my ass kicked.

mm yes it can seem hard thier sometimes. with the sly way the combines lurk in and knock down your turrets eventually getting to u. but this is mostly due to the sheer numbers of combine at this part .

i would dread to think of facing marines from HL1 in those kind of numbers

 

[PvtRyan]

Haha moggy, if you think that the population of America is made up out of rednecks and white trash, then it's not me who's the racist here

And rednecks are their own race nowadays? Figures, with all that inbreeding they're bound to create a new species at some point.

 

[Insano]

Don't ruin my thread :'(

 

[Abix]

ATTENTION FORUM MONKEYS.

Yes, that means you. And me.

BEFORE you make any futher comparisons between HL1 AI and HL2 AI, be sure that you are playing both games on HARD mode, where the AI will shine.

Moggy claims that the HL2 AI will not run from grenades, while I have seen them do so. Please be sure you're running on Hard mode, Moggy.

*cough*

 

[King John]

if you were rushed by hl1 marines in entanglement it would a lot easier, becuase hl1 marines would just run to the turrets without firing, they would also NOT use grenades aslong as yo kept yourself hidden, the hl1 AI has no idea how to fight turrets.

 

[Revenge]

Wow just last night I redid a few levels on Hard (I had just left it on Normal without thinking about it) and HOLY CRAP the difference is HUGE! Apart from enemies doing way more damage and taking way more hits, I saw them doing things they had never done before... Civil Protection actually taking cover? Combine soldiers running AWAY from me, opening a door, running inside and then attacking me from inside it? Combine Elite actually attempting flanking instead of just rushing in? It was crazy...

I got lucky to have a bunch of allies with me at one point in Follow Freeman as I was trying to take down one of the generators... I was so busy focusing on the two normal soldiers infront of me to realise that the elite and 2 other soldiers I had seen through a window and had gone out the other way, round a series of corridors, through a forcefield, round some corridors and then attempted to flank me... I had not yet killed the other 2 soldiers (even with Barney and 2 resistance fighters at my side) because they had been using cover really effectively, and would have been unable to defend myself had my allies not turned around and opened fire on them straight away...

 

[Octavian]

Moggy. Lets put it this way.

HL2 open based AI > HL1 script and raw HP.


Play on Hard. And not die.

kthnx

 

[spaz1]

I found it really sad in HL2 that sometimes combines just stood still and wouldn't respond when I shot their legs. They din't eaven scream anything like MEDIC!! in HL1. I think that HL1 AI seems to be working beter because the maps are more simple. dunno...

 

[Revenge]

Yes, raw hp is another excellent point. Combine elite, the strongest human units in the game, have only 70hp and no armour and that on easy and normal difficulties all weapons do more damage to NPCs than they do to players (no matter who is holding the gun). On hard most weapons seem to do equal damage to NPCs and players (unless Gordon is holding it, in which case it does something like 66% or so of the normal damage)

HL1 enemies tended to have A LOT of HP...

 

[HunterSeeker]

HL1 marines could take like 30 SMG shots, Combine around 7...

 

[marshmallow]

Before the game came out I was slightly chastized because I made a reply wherein I remarked that the "new, amazing" AI would be nothing new and was just a marketing ploy, i.e. something to put by a bullet on the back of a box.

GG.

At some point, better AI is detrimental to the fun factor of a singleplayer game. Of course, not running from grenades 85% of the case may be a case of sheer stupidity.

 

[Eunoch]

moggy maybe if u wouldnt play hl2 on the easy difficulty u would notice that the ai is in reality much better than hl1s. i remember in nova prospekt that it took me 2 or 3 tries to manage to beat it, because the way the combine worked was amazing. i would follow one guy but he would lead me into a trap with 5 more shooting the shit out of me from behind as soon as i turn a corner. hl's ai is shit, hl2's is good, if only the hitboxes would be improved