Americans ambushed in Iraq. (no gore)

[Champ]

Leg blown off? To start with, how the **** could those soldiers know what those guys were doing? Maybe if they didnt kill him, he could have got some help on time and survive it? I mean how lame is that, " oh i think he's bleeding to death , lets waste him" Right........

They fired around 15-20 shots of 30mm cannon under that truck. It's a freakin fact that those would have wounded him. Imagine a 9mm bullet richocheting off a wall and into you! Ouch, that must hurt but it's not directly lethal. Then imagine a 30mm explosive cannon round richocheting off a wall and into you. Now that must hurt! If you look closely, you can see that theres a big part of his right leg missing. When I squash flies and bees and such, I kill them instead of leaving them crushed on the floor/table only moving their heads. The Indymedia source doesn't know what they're talking about, clearly!


"From the perspective seen in the video, it is clear that the Apache helicopter is not being threatened"

And so what? I guess that means aircrafts can't hunt down tanks, jeeps and destroy radar stations because they pose no immidiate threat to them? This is war not a tea-party...


"However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it."

To hide it? to pass it on perhaps? Obvious explanations...


"And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon."

The helicopter is too far away to bee seen or heard. I'm guessing it would appear as a dot (although it would be a noticeable one if you actively searched) on the evening sun. See the cannon rounds travel to it's target? It takes some time, and seeing as the velocity of the cannon's rounds are close to 800 meters/second I'd say they're pretty far away.


" At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire.
"

Blah blah... They haven't noticed the chopper for crying out loud. ANd watch the long version, notice how they're running all over the place? They're not simple farmers, no, they are not. And once again, the pilots have a much much better idea on whats going on than we have.



The Geneva Convention states that we are to treat wounded humanely and not murder or exterminate them. In this case, they were no options. Ground forces are non-existant and it would probably be too dangerous to go out for the single reason of retrieving a wounded terrorist. In these cases, your own lives are the first priority. The pilots did what they had to. They hunted down 3 fella's, one of them carrying an RPG. They killed all 3. Mission accomplished.

This was reply to Indymedias incompetent article, which clearly shows that you have to research before you post crap like that. The other article is as much speculation as Indymedia, they obviously haven't watched the long video either were the 3 lads are running around with the so-called "exaust pipe"

And varghund. Soldiers? Soldiers don't drive tractors. All of the vehicles involved looked like civilian vehicles...

 

[Champ]

some points:

torture is a war crime

Indeed, and methods like this should only be used on high-profile terrorists which fail to cooperate, and have important intel... If something like that were used to mere soldiers, then I agree, but the responsible people in jail... Who were tortured by the way? I want a source
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The US used Cluster bombs and littered the desert with mines: a direct violation of the geneva accords

No defense here. Cluster bombs should only be used on military areas only. The US failed to do so, and have no defense...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

according to international law the invasion was illegal. The US signed the UN general accords so they are(or should be) held accountable under those laws

This is beaucracy at it's best. Illegal or not, I still believe that Saddams fall is a overwhelmingly good thing... From a legal pointof view entirely, then it's surely not okay. But sometimes the law stands in the way of right...
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the Kurds were killed using weapons supplied by the US

Your point is? The weapons were not sold to murder Kurds, they were however bought to do just that.
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Iraq will never be "better" so long as a foreign government is calling the shots

That's why we're trying to create an Iraqi government, do you ever watch the news?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saddam is not the true definition of the word terrorist. Tyrant, dictator yes but not terrorist

Getting stuck up in such definitions is not a good thing. But you're right, I guess tyrant and dictator is more fitting. Problem is that, a dictator and tyrant is the bigger brother of the terrorist. They have the money, they have the soldiers, and they have the power to do absolutely everything they want
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

there are quite a few innocents in US war prisons that still havent been released. There literally hundreds of prisoners that have been in prison for over 2 years without being charged with anything.

I want a source... Bring me thy source!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



it is against the geneva accords to fire upon wounded soldiers ...it is considered a warcrime

Read other post

 

[CptStern]

some points:

Indeed, and methods like this should only be used on high-profile terrorists which fail to cooperate, and have important intel... If something like that were used to mere soldiers, then I agree, but the responsible people in jail... Who were tortured by the way? I want a source

there is never a justification for torture. It has been proven ineffectual not to mention that it is morally reprehensible

the CIA torture suspects

more sources:

CIA torturing Al Quida

CIA techniques used in Abu Ghraib

US turns to torture to crack prisoners of war

No defense here. Cluster bombs should only be used on military areas only. The US failed to do so, and have no defense...

the used of banned weapons is a warcrime. You're admitting they are guilty of a warcrime?

This is beaucracy at it's best. Illegal or not, I still believe that Saddams fall is a overwhelmingly good thing... From a legal pointof view entirely, then it's surely not okay. But sometimes the law stands in the way of right...

then by that same token the US should be sending an invasion force into the Sudan? Sierra Leon? Where was the overwhelming US invasion force to save the people of the Congo who were slaughtered in the millions? or Rwanda, Indonesia? East Timor? etc

the Kurds were killed using weapons supplied by the US

Your point is? The weapons were not sold to murder Kurds, they were however bought to do just that.

you fail to see the irony. Saddam gassed the Kurds during the final weeks of the iraq-iran war using american supplied WMD ...the same weapons the US has been claiming he has

here's a photo days after the news broke out that saddam had killed thousands of iranians and kurds with chemical weapons ...thats Rumsfeld btw...the US continued to sell them to him well into the early 90's

That's why we're trying to create an Iraqi government, do you ever watch the news?

a puppet regime to the US you mean? maybe it's you who should watch the news:

Iraqi PM Iyad Allawi has been on CIA payroll for years

he's also a terrorist, murderer and I'm sure given time he'll mature into a full blown Saddam clone

[Getting stuck up in such definitions is not a good thing. But you're right, I guess tyrant and dictator is more fitting. Problem is that, a dictator and tyrant is the bigger brother of the terrorist. They have the money, they have the soldiers, and they have the power to do absolutely everything they want

name one incident where the US was attacked by Iraqi terrorists

[there are quite a few innocents in US war prisons that still havent been released. There literally hundreds of prisoners that have been in prison for over 2 years without being charged with anything.

I want a source... Bring me thy source!

two Australian citizens ...solitary confinement for over 18 months. They have been denied all legal rights, including any direct contact with their families or access to their own lawyers, and are subjected to constant interrogations by the US military.

Pentagon institutionalises indefinite detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

hundreds of people of around 40 different nationalities remain held without charge or trial at the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay

United States imprisoned around 600 men....35 of them were released in June 2003. Another five were handed over to British authorities in March 2004 and subsequently released. The rest are still being held indefinitely in military custody. No formal criminal charge has been brought against them.

it is against the geneva accords to fire upon wounded soldiers ...it is considered a warcrime

Read other post

your post were you try to defeat the article by stating your opinion?

even the US military has been investigating the incident because it is quite clear they were farmers not soldiers ..read the analysis ..even ABCnews brought up that angle.

BTW when I said it was illegal to shoot wounded soldiers I was referring to the incident where a wounded soldeir was shot by a US marine not the helicoptor incident

 

[Champ]

the used of banned weapons is a warcrime. You're admitting they are guilty of a warcrime?

I'm not admitting anything, I'm saying that if they used cluster bombs on civilian populated areas then they ****ed up pretty damn well.


then by that same token the US should be sending an invasion force into the Sudan? Sierra Leon? Where was the overwhelming US invasion force to save the people of the Congo who were slaughtered in the millions? or Rwanda, Indonesia? East Timor? etc

Aye, I do. But that's not how it works. One war at a time, and must be done in a orderly fashion. Furthermore do I think that NATO or UN should be the leaders in any of such expeditions and not the US.


a puppet regime to the US you mean? maybe it's you who should watch the news:

Iraqi PM Iyad Allawi has been on CIA payroll for years

he's also a terrorist, murderer and I'm sure given time he'll mature into a full blown Saddam clone

This lad was not chosen by the Iraqi people. Your statement "Iraq will never be "better" so long as a foreign government is calling the shots" is not valid, seeing as the goal is to establish a government created entirely by the choice of the Iraqi people.


name one incident where the US was attacked by Iraqi terrorists

I can't. But that's irrelevant. The US are fighting for Iraqi freedom and world freedom, whether he's killing Kurds, political opponents or Americans he's still a terrorist.


your post were you try to defeat the article by stating your opinion?

even the US military has been investigating the incident because it is quite clear they were farmers not soldiers ..read the analysis ..even ABCnews brought up that angle.

BTW when I said it was illegal to shoot wounded soldiers I was referring to the incident where a wounded soldeir was shot by a US marine not the helicoptor incident

Indymedia knows nothing of this incident. It shows clearly.
Let me see that analysis, those guys weren't farmers. Farmers doesn't milk cows with RPGs...
The incident with the wounded Iraqi was sad. Those soldiers were morons and I wanted to rape the guy with a rusty comb when I heard "he felt good about it" afterwards. That's how some soldiers are, certainly not acceptable but it's inevitable.

I pretty much agree with you on the other points, I know of the Guantanamo base, but we're talking about imprisoned Iraqi's here, not Australians, Brits or anyone else. As I said before, I have no problems with people getting arrested as long as we can stop people from getting killed. Arrested people from sweeps and razzias are usually released a couple of days...

Do you have msn?

 

[CptStern]

the used of banned weapons is a warcrime. You're admitting they are guilty of a warcrime?

I'm not admitting anything, I'm saying that if they used cluster bombs on civilian populated areas then they ****ed up pretty damn well.

it doesnt matter if they used cluster bombs in civilian areas, even if they used it solely on enemy combatants it's still a war crime. Basically you are agreeing that the US (in this case) is guilty of a warcrime

then by that same token the US should be sending an invasion force into the Sudan? Sierra Leon? Where was the overwhelming US invasion force to save the people of the Congo who were slaughtered in the millions? or Rwanda, Indonesia? East Timor? etc

Aye, I do. But that's not how it works. One war at a time, and must be done in a orderly fashion.

Rwanda was 10 years in the making ...10 years of little to no foreign intervention

Furthermore do I think that NATO or UN should be the leaders in any of such expeditions and not the US.

so what makes Iraq different?

a puppet regime to the US you mean? maybe it's you who should watch the news:

Iraqi PM Iyad Allawi has been on CIA payroll for years

he's also a terrorist, murderer and I'm sure given time he'll mature into a full blown Saddam clone

This lad was not chosen by the Iraqi people. .

of course not ..he's a paid puppet of the US

Your statement "Iraq will never be "better" so long as a foreign government is calling the shots" is not valid, seeing as the goal is to establish a government created entirely by the choice of the Iraqi people.

..with a Prime Minister that's on the CIA payroll?

name one incident where the US was attacked by Iraqi terrorists

I can't. But that's irrelevant. The US are fighting for Iraqi freedom and world freedom, whether he's killing Kurds, political opponents or Americans he's still a terrorist.

what a croc!!! first it was because of WMD, now it's for the freedom of iraqi's? is that why 7000 iraqi civilians died during the war to liberate iraq?

Indymedia knows nothing of this incident. It shows clearly.
Let me see that analysis, those guys weren't farmers. Farmers doesn't milk cows with RPGs...

so what would convince you? if it made headlines on Foxnews? (bastion of fairness and impartiality)
How do you know it was an RPG? military analysts have said it was too long to be a rpg, the farmers in question were driving a tractor and a grain truck ...btw this all happened during daylight hours ...visibility was quite good

The incident with the wounded Iraqi was sad. Those soldiers were morons and I wanted to rape the guy with a rusty comb when I heard "he felt good about it" afterwards. That's how some soldiers are, certainly not acceptable but it's inevitable.

sorry I dont believe the justification that he's "just a bad apple" the interview clearly shows that he thought what he did was right ...I'm sure his comrades felt the same way

I pretty much agree with you on the other points, I know of the Guantanamo base, but we're talking about imprisoned Iraqi's here, not Australians, Brits or anyone else. As I said before, I have no problems with people getting arrested as long as we can stop people from getting killed. Arrested people from sweeps and razzias are usually released a couple of days...

please read the links, they clearly point out that the CIA was torturing Iraqi militants and Al queda suspects. In fact there was a canadian released from Guantamano bay not too long ago of Iraq origin who was arrested and held for 2 years without a trial ..he complained of being tortured and humiliated by prison torturers

[Do you have msn?

sorry I'm at work

 

[Champ]

it doesnt matter if they used cluster bombs in civilian areas, even if they used it solely on enemy combatants it's still a war crime. Basically you are agreeing that the US (in this case) is guilty of a warcrime

Yes


Rwanda was 10 years in the making ...10 years of little to no foreign intervention

And Iraq was 25 years "in the making"... Point is?


so what makes Iraq different?

UN didn't want to, that's whats different. I'd rather see UN or NATO take the lead, but the US is capable themselves. Get my point?


of course not ..he's a paid puppet of the US
..with a Prime Minister that's on the CIA payroll?

Isn't he the temporary PM until the Iraqis can choose for themselves? That's what I understand from it all...


what a croc!!! first it was because of WMD, now it's for the freedom of iraqi's? is that why 7000 iraqi civilians died during the war to liberate iraq?

Clearly you're trying to get me trapped. Not going to work though. You know there are always several reasons of the choices we make. This is no different. It just turned out that WMD's weren't present. Also, you must not forget that the those who caused this massive number of Iraqi civilian deaths is not America, but Iraqi terrorists and insurgents. Slinging out pretty numbers won't work when they aren't representing the whole truth...


so what would convince you? if it made headlines on Foxnews? (bastion of fairness and impartiality)
How do you know it was an RPG? military analysts have said it was too long to be a rpg, the farmers in question were driving a tractor and a grain truck ...btw this all happened during daylight hours ...visibility was quite good

When they retrieve the exaust pipe/RPG (cause we don't know whats true and whats not) I'll eat my words...


sorry I dont believe the justification that he's "just a bad apple" the interview clearly shows that he thought what he did was right ...I'm sure his comrades felt the same way

I might be putting words into your mouth, but are you saying the majority of US soldiers are assholes? The majority are doing their jobs. Plain and simple


please read the links, they clearly point out that the CIA was torturing Iraqi militants and Al queda suspects. In fact there was a canadian released from Guantamano bay not too long ago of Iraq origin who was arrested and held for 2 years without a trial ..he complained of being tortured and humiliated by prison torturers

You're diverting from the original point. Original point was about innocent imprisoned iraqi's not murdering scum...

 

[CptStern]

it doesnt matter if they used cluster bombs in civilian areas, even if they used it solely on enemy combatants it's still a war crime. Basically you are agreeing that the US (in this case) is guilty of a warcrime

Yes

but isnt that what the US is claiming saddam did? commited warcrimes?

Rwanda was 10 years in the making ...10 years of little to no foreign intervention

And Iraq was 25 years "in the making"... Point is?

15 of those years were under the thumb of the US. The US made saddam, without US help he would have been overthrown decades ago

[so what makes Iraq different?

UN didn't want to, that's whats different. I'd rather see UN or NATO take the lead, but the US is capable themselves. Get my point?

the UN sent inspectors, they found nothing, it should have ended there

of course not ..he's a paid puppet of the US
..with a Prime Minister that's on the CIA payroll?

Isn't he the temporary PM until the Iraqis can choose for themselves? That's what I understand from it all...

from a pool of US sympathetic candiates. You cant be all that concerned about human rights if you put into power someone who is a murderer and terrorist

[what a croc!!! first it was because of WMD, now it's for the freedom of iraqi's? is that why 7000 iraqi civilians died during the war to liberate iraq?

Also, you must not forget that the those who caused this massive number of Iraqi civilian deaths is not America, but Iraqi terrorists and insurgents. Slinging out pretty numbers won't work when they aren't representing the whole truth...

no, the 7000 were killed during the war not during the occupation

so what would convince you? if it made headlines on Foxnews? (bastion of fairness and impartiality)
How do you know it was an RPG? military analysts have said it was too long to be a rpg, the farmers in question were driving a tractor and a grain truck ...btw this all happened during daylight hours ...visibility was quite good

When they retrieve the exaust pipe/RPG (cause we don't know whats true and whats not) I'll eat my words...

and the US army would be interested in retrieving it because? they are concerned with fair play? come on .....

sorry I dont believe the justification that he's "just a bad apple" the interview clearly shows that he thought what he did was right ...I'm sure his comrades felt the same way

I might be putting words into your mouth, but are you saying the majority of US soldiers are assholes? The majority are doing their jobs. Plain and simple

you are putting words in my mouth. The point is that he thought it was acceptable which probably points to a wider acceptance by soldiers that what they're doing is right. 91 cases of abuse is a little hard to shrug off as an "isolated incident" not to mention a lot of the tortures had CIA methods written all over them ...the order had to come from somewhere

please read the links, they clearly point out that the CIA was torturing Iraqi militants and Al queda suspects. In fact there was a canadian released from Guantamano bay not too long ago of Iraq origin who was arrested and held for 2 years without a trial ..he complained of being tortured and humiliated by prison torturers

You're diverting from the original point. Original point was about innocent imprisoned iraqi's not murdering scum...

that is my point; that there are many innocent iraqi's in prison

 

[Champ]

Before I start, I want to let you know that I can't nor will I defend all of the things which you are pointing out. I'm pro-war, but I'm not especially pro-Bush, I do not follow anyone blindly, and I do know right from wrong.


but isnt that what the US is claiming saddam did? commited warcrimes?

Indeed. But there are varying levels of "severity". Cluster bombs are pretty conventional, and though they are exceptionally deadly they are conventional. The only reason they are banned are because of their inaccuracy, which is fair enough though.


15 of those years were under the thumb of the US. The US made saddam, without US help he would have been overthrown decades ago

That is quite right, but I already made my point...


the UN sent inspectors, they found nothing, it should have ended there

Oooo, but do not forget that Iraq is one hell of a big country. It's not mission impossible to hide weapons in the desert. What we know is, that they didn't do that. But that is beside the point. Going in for the sole reason of WMD is wrong, but going in for the freedom of the Iraqi people and the chance of capping a couple of WMDs is a by my admission alright..


from a pool of US sympathetic candiates. You cant be all that concerned about human rights if you put into power someone who is a murderer and terrorist

Indeed, and I find that strange too, BUT lets not forget he is a temp PM, ultimate goal is to let Iraq become democratic, and if the best man for the job is a former murder, then we'll have to accept...


no, the 7000 were killed during the war not during the occupation

I stand corrected. That's war (Not said as en excuse. There aren't any)


and the US army would be interested in retrieving it because? they are concerned with fair play? come on .....

I have no idea, but really Stern. We don't know if those guys were farmers or terrorists. They didn't behave as farmers, and I don't see any reason for running back and forth and dropping exaust pipes on the ground. But recovering the stuff is the only way of uncovering the truth.


you are putting words in my mouth. The point is that he thought it was acceptable which probably points to a wider acceptance by soldiers that what they're doing is right. 91 cases of abuse is a little hard to shrug off as an "isolated incident" not to mention a lot of the tortures had CIA methods written all over them ...the order had to come from somewhere

Incidents as Abu Gharaib was performed by reservists, so-called weekend warriors. It's decpicable and I sincerely hope they'll get what they deserve; Plenty of prison time, and hopefully enough shower trips (that'll teach them anyway)


that is my point; that there are many innocent iraqi's in prison

And there are more guilty Iraqis in prison. It's not right that innocent people are in prison, but I'm confident that most cases are solved within a few days or weeks.

 

[-TaNaKa-]

. When I squash flies and bees and such, I kill them instead of leaving them crushed on the floor/table only moving their heads. The Indymedia source doesn't know what they're talking about, clearly!


QUOTE]

So you are comparing flies and bees and trees with humans now? Seriously dude, i think the bush propaganda influenced you too much...

That apache incident= war crime.. there are all sorts of speculations. Some people say that this was a family, they say even 1 of them was a female. and the second person that got shot, was waving like a surrendering sign, of course it can be a weapon that he was trying to use/hide, but i dont believe that.

And people saying that we are in a war now, these things happen. To start with, what war? There is no more war, and second a war is where both sides can fight eachother and kill eachother.

KILLING UNARMED PEOPLE FROM A FAR DISTANCE WITH A HELICOPTER IS NOT WAR... Now take this shit up in your brain

 

[CptStern]

Before I start, I want to let you know that I can't nor will I defend all of the things which you are pointing out. I'm pro-war, but I'm not especially pro-Bush, I do not follow anyone blindly, and I do know right from wrong.

well I dont see us getting anywhere because I've been anti-war in iraq since the first war (I marched the streets in protest along with 1000's of other concerned humans)

but isnt that what the US is claiming saddam did? commited warcrimes?

Indeed. But there are varying levels of "severity". Cluster bombs are pretty conventional, and though they are exceptionally deadly they are conventional. The only reason they are banned are because of their inaccuracy, which is fair enough though.

you cant pick and choose which war crime is more important. A war crime is a war crime, is a war crime. There's no grey area ..either it is or it isnt

the UN sent inspectors, they found nothing, it should have ended there

Oooo, but do not forget that Iraq is one hell of a big country.

but they didnt find anything becuase they knew they wouldnt find anything

Going in for the sole reason of WMD is wrong, but going in for the freedom of the Iraqi people and the chance of capping a couple of WMDs is a by my admission alright..

it was never about the freedom of iraqi's. You dont liberate a country by bombing it back to the stone age, it just makes no sense

Indeed, and I find that strange too, BUT lets not forget he is a temp PM, ultimate goal is to let Iraq become democratic, and if the best man for the job is a former murder, then we'll have to accept...

that's what was said to justify keeping saddam in power. The UN wanted him tried for crimes against humanity in the 80's yet the US vetoed it. Oh and the previous PM was also a paid CIA informant and has been linked to murders during the reign of saddam

and the US army would be interested in retrieving it because? they are concerned with fair play? come on .....

I have no idea, but really Stern. We don't know if those guys were farmers or terrorists. They didn't behave as farmers, and I don't see any reason for running back and forth and dropping exaust pipes on the ground. But recovering the stuff is the only way of uncovering the truth.

I have to agree, we wont know with any surity because any evidence either for or against was destroyed long ago. But just on the surface it is apparent that they 3 iraqi's on the group were no threat to the helicoptor. They fired only after they had dropped what was presumed to be a RPG

Incidents as Abu Gharaib was performed by reservists, so-called weekend warriors. It's decpicable and I sincerely hope they'll get what they deserve; Plenty of prison time, and hopefully enough shower trips (that'll teach them anyway)

I'm talking about CIA torture not random dumbass jailers (who incidently used torture methods that comes directly from a CIA manual)

And there are more guilty Iraqis in prison. It's not right that innocent people are in prison, but I'm confident that most cases are solved within a few days or weeks.

I'm not convinced at all ...I gave you countless examples of prisoners who are rotting in jail with no rights, no trial, no lawyer, no communication with the outside world

 

[KiNG]

i guess some people dont realize that war is not meant to be civililized and things like this have happened in most wars(killing wounded, questionable ethics, etc.). things like killing wounded have happened in every war, u cant civilize war. war is anything we make it.

BTW is there more of that vid?

 

[-TaNaKa-]

In wars i can understand killing and not taking hostages for example. In a war you dont have time for that, so kill every opposing soldier thats resists. Im talking now about heavy war conditions. But stuff like that apache incident keeps happening. No war anymore in Iraq..

 

[CptStern]

i guess some people dont realize that war is not meant to be civililized and things like this have happened in most wars(killing wounded, questionable ethics, etc.). things like killing wounded have happened in every war, u cant civilize war. war is anything we make it.

BTW is there more of that vid?

this is not war, it's a "liberation" according to US spin doctors ...it was called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" you'd think they'd at least put on the appearance that they were trying to help

 

[KiNG]

ok look at the situation right now. we are not directly at war but have temporary war zones. people dont want us there but we are forced due to our commitment. people are still dying and my previous post was refering to when we were at war.

and u can take liberation in many ways including the liberation of dictatorship.

 

[CptStern]

ok look at the situation right now. we are not directly at war but have temporary war zones. people dont want us there but we are forced due to our commitment. people are still dying and my previous post was refering to when we were at war.

and u can take liberation in many ways including the liberation of dictatorship.

yes but the majority of these incidents happened not during the war but during the occupation. Soldiers throwing bound iraqi prisoners off of bridges for sport, soldiers taking potshots at ambulances as they're trying to collect the dead and dying from war torn streets, border patrols opening fire on women and children ...these incidents all happened after major combat was declared over:

what was this all about? a photo op for the "war" president ..."Mission accomplished" my arse

 

[KiNG]

i would like to know where u get your info from about soldiers throwing people off bridges and shooting women and children. to say the least they sound like extreme twist on the truth.

oh and is there more of that vid u didnt post?

 

[CptStern]

i would like to know where u get your info from about soldiers throwing people off bridges and shooting women and children. to say the least they sound like extreme twist on the truth.

oh and is there more of that vid u didnt post?

must I answer every single question posed by people who have no insight into the issues? I'm tired of regurgitating the facts. Why didnt you just look it up?

here

 

[KiNG]

this article is an isolated incident, im tired u acting like this is common place for troops. talk to me like im a child again and i wont respond back, tryin to indirectly insult me is very tasteless and rude. i see no article about american or coalition troops shooting a women or children. your previous statments are nearly fictional. and the bridge incident was by few and they were caught. yes the government is doing somethings i dont approve of but its better to keep an open mind and eye on all sides. people dont just shoot at other people or things for no reason no matter how loose of a cannon u might think american troops are.

 

[CptStern]

91 cases of abuse is not isolated ...and that's not including all the civilians killed under questionable circumstances in the field. Please go back to the beginning of this topic we've discussed this already

 

[KiNG]

ok just dont go and say troops shoot women and children when your trying to make your case that bad stuff happens during and after war.

 

[^Ben]

Merry go round weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[CptStern]

Whether intentional or not, these things do happen

 

[kidrock450]

this thread reaks of liberals.

 

[Champ]

You're quite right.. We're going nowhere with this, but I have problems with some of you newest statements.


you cant pick and choose which war crime is more important. A war crime is a war crime, is a war crime. There's no grey area ..either it is or it isnt

Forgive me for this crude analogy, but that must be the same as saying shoplifting is just as important as murder is. A crime is a crime eh? Saddam kill thousands of Kurds with gas, the US wipes out Iraqi military bases, but kill some civilians also with their cluster bombs. Now which one of those war crimes is more severe? I'd say Saddam's is...


it was never about the freedom of iraqi's. You dont liberate a country by bombing it back to the stone age, it just makes no sense

Bombed back to the stone age? I don't think so. Iraq was lucky. The war was rather fast and effecient. It's the Terrorists who are to blame of all these troubles, not the US government...

 

[-TaNaKa-]

Champ doesnt seem to get it, like i said, you have to get to the bottom of the story.. terrorists and Iraq are being linked by people, i dont understand that. And no the US government should be blamed because they invade a country with no good reason, no support from the UN, and no support from the Iraqi people itself. And still you blame the terrorists for all this? Wake up dude!!

 

[Champ]

No good reason?, no support from the Iraqi people? Maybe you ought to wake up! The UN was against it, but who are UN to decide whats right or wrong? It's basically just a bunch of beaucratic politicians with nothing better to do than watch their own careers...

 

[-TaNaKa-]

You didnt give me any reason for me to wake up dude!

Before the war, if America would make a poll asking the Iraqi people if they want that war or not, and it comes out the most people want it, are you really gonna believe that? Like they would made a honest poll lol. And if you dont respect the UN, you dont respect the European countries and its rules and laws. Maybe one day the UN would change some rules and then declares war to America if they are just stupid politicians. It doesnt matter right?

Champ, you should become a american soldier, they need people like you who cant decide for themselves.

 

[Champ]

I respect the UN, I just do not follow it's decisions blindly. one must stand up and think once in a while. If you make a poll in todays Iraq, the majority of Iraqis will think times will get better than it has been with Saddam. That's a fact...

And what can't I decide for myself? Counter arguments with arguments, not arguments with crap...

 

[Moto]

You guys argue too much. Don't make me break out a certain picture...