Another Net Neutrailty thread

[No Limit]

What is it that they did specifically? You really think letters and emails beat out corporations and special interests? It seems to me like "hey guys thanks for doing all that work and writing all those emails, it totally worked. Can you send us more money?". And I don't see where the success is, 74 democrats in congress don't support it, that's enough to kill any legislation.

On edit: I am not totally dismissing what they are doing. Trying to keep over a million people on their list motivated is a good thing. But it seems like they could be doing a lot more.

 

[Vegeta897]

But it seems like they could be doing a lot more.

And you keep talking about us being lazy and trying to make ourselves feel good by doing nothing...

 

[No Limit]

I don't get your point. And I'm just pointing out most of you aren't really willing to do much more than write an email to save net neutrality. Is that false?

 

[Vegeta897]

I'm saying you're being kind of really hypocritical.

 

[No Limit]

I'm saying you're being kind of really hypocritical.

I never said I wasn't. I'm just not going to pretend that if I write an email I'm an activist saving the internet. But you guys keep pretending.

 

[VirusType2]

EDIT: Just go away, No Limit. You made your point.

Lately, I've been seeing that the FCC, with it's newfound power (that we have been fighting for), is taking down websites. Supposedly they nearly seized Megaupload!

This is what's got me worried. Read this, from our friends at EFF.org:

Is Net Neutrality a FCC Trojan Horse?: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/net-neutrality-fcc-perils-and-promise

 

[dfc05]

Every time I've sent an email through that website (usually mine get sent to my congressman), I've actually gotten an email back from the congressman's office. I know it's just a secretary but hey, due to an email, someone over there had to do a little more work. I imagine they do keep at least a tally of how many emails they get about various issues.

 

[Bad^Hat]

You kind of missed my point. If you want to donate money I'm all for that. If you want to donate your time thats great too. But sitting there writing emails is a waste of time.

That's exactly what I addressed in my post. So either I didn't miss your point or... you're not actually making one.

You don't actually think some guy at the FCC with his political connections sits at his computer so he can allow emails to shape his policy? Their decisions are calculated. You can't get through to them. The only people you can get through to is people that vote for these idiots, and that takes actual effort (thats what I mean by getting out of your chair). You can certainly put in alot of effort infront of a computer, but its not by writing emails to politicians.

PLEASE QUANTIFY HOW. WE'RE ALL EARS, DUDE.

Oh god I am so sick of this phony defeatist attitude. "All corporations care about are profit margins you can't change a thing just give it up." You don't think maybe public approval is a part of their business plan? You don't think going against the interests of the people they claim to serve might be a bad move for them? Honestly all I'm hearing out of you is "ra ra ra big business ra ra govinmint ra." CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING.

I never said I wasn't. I'm just not going to pretend that if I write an email I'm an activist saving the internet. But you guys keep pretending.

Oh do shut up. You keep implying that anyone writing an email is doing it out of some sense of righteousness or internet vigilante justice, when in fact the only one who's claimed to be an activist in this thread is you.

 

[No Limit]

I claimed to be an activist? Where?

The point you missed was about the arm chair warriors that can't be bothered to do much more than write an email. If you are actually donating money to good causes or dedicating actual effort you aren't an armchair warrior as you are actually doing something. You writing an email doens't change anything.

And what do you mean you are sick of hearing that all corporations want is money? Isn't that the point of net neutrality? If they can do as they want they will use that opportunity to make more money, otherwise we wouldn't need net neutrality. They have billions of dollars that they spend in politics. You think the people at the FCC are going to be influanced by a couple million emails from all around the country? Or are they going to be influanced by the people that pay for them to get their jobs?

If you write an email you assume that they are idiots and they don't know that net neutrality is the right thing. Like they sit there and say "Jesus, did you see this email from Bad^Hat! I can't believe that's what net neutrality actually is!". Give me a break. You need to convince the people that vote for these assholes, you will never convince these people of anything by writing them an email, it's always a political calculation.

 

[arch5]

I claimed to be an activist? Where?

The point you missed was about the arm chair warriors that can't be bothered to do much more than write an email. If you are actually donating money to good causes or dedicating actual effort you aren't an armchair warrior as you are actually doing something. You writing an email doens't change anything.

And what do you mean you are sick of hearing that all corporations want is money? Isn't that the point of net neutrality? If they can do as they want they will use that opportunity to make more money, otherwise we wouldn't need net neutrality. They have billions of dollars that they spend in politics. You think the people at the FCC are going to be influanced by a couple million emails from all around the country? Or are they going to be influanced by the people that pay for them to get their jobs?

If you write an email you assume that they are idiots and they don't know that net neutrality is the right thing. Like they sit there and say "Jesus, did you see this email from Bad^Hat! I can't believe that's what net neutrality actually is!". Give me a break. You need to convince the people that vote for these assholes, you will never convince these people of anything by writing them an email, it's always a political calculation.

Oh, so if I write an email to them, I'm "lazy", because I'm not doing something "more effective"? Are you kidding me?

 

[Darkside55]

my face when I send an e-mail and don't give a shit what No Limit says

 

[Dr.Demento]

But go ahead and keep people apathetic by telling them that communicating with the government won't help. That will certainly improve things!

I'm in. Where do I sign up? Comcast can suck themselves, and while we're at it, stop trying to make us pay taxes for internet transactions USA. I pay taxes in almost every other aspect of my life and I don't even have health insurance, so I definitely don't agree with being taxed for the internets too.

Pay up with some health care until I can afford my own or go screw yourselves.

 

[Krynn72]

If you write an email you assume that they are idiots and they don't know that net neutrality is the right thing. Like they sit there and say "Jesus, did you see this email from Bad^Hat! I can't believe that's what net neutrality actually is!". Give me a break. You need to convince the people that vote for these assholes, you will never convince these people of anything by writing them an email, it's always a political calculation.

Back when I lived in Louisiana, I actually had an exchange with my at-the-time congressman (or at least, someone speaking on his behalf) after sending him an email about net neutrality. He was against it, but he listened to my arguments and actually addressed some specific issues I brought up in my email. Frankly, you're being ridiculous here, thinking nobody reads emails, or thinking that they won't listen to what people are saying. Remember, these guys are up for re-election often.

You say "the fact remains" as if you know for a certainty that government officials don't read email, but listen to phone calls or regular letters instead. But in actuality, the fact remains that you're pulling that assumption out of your ass, and my email inbox has evidence that you're wrong. A snippet:

It is good to hear from you. Knowing the views of residents in the 5th District is beneficial to me as your Congressman.

I am always happy to listen to your thoughts and concerns, as I believe it is important for constituents such as yourself to contact their congressmen and women regarding important issues such as this. I receive numerous emails throughout the day, and value the opportunity to respond to each one. Thank you for your patience in waiting for my response to your comments.

So now that thats sorted, I'll address your other baseless assumptions. I have donated more than a hundred dollars to Free Press in support of their efforts, and I donate locally to support other political agendas to help improve my local communities. Example: Just last week, I signed two petitions (not online, an actual paper petition) in support of a local bill being presented that called for better work environments (things like a minimum of 5 days paid sick-leave in a year) and donated to the organization that was trying to get the word out about it.

So please, shut your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Bad^Hat]

I claimed to be an activist? Where?

Hell, if we gathered up alot of the talent on this site we could probably make a huge dent on an issue such as net neutrality (or pot legalization, or so many other issues). But the fact is you would never get that kind of dedication, I know because I've worked on projects like that before.

Unless participating in "projects like that" doesn't make you an activist? In which case your point becomes even less clear.

The point you missed was about the arm chair warriors that can't be bothered to do much more than write an email. If you are actually donating money to good causes or dedicating actual effort you aren't an armchair warrior as you are actually doing something. You writing an email doens't change anything.

Again, I addressed that exact ****ing point. If anything, you have failed to address the point by repeating the same crap over and over throughout the thread, even in the face of dissenting arguments. In fact, it's becoming increasingly apparent that you care less about people actually taking a stand on the issue than you do about demeaning them for not doing it your way - which, again, you fail to quantify except in vague suggestions like "donate some money to... someone... or something." Once more I request that you actually contribute something to the discussion instead of just spreading unwanted pessimism and insults.

And what do you mean you are sick of hearing that all corporations want is money? Isn't that the point of net neutrality? If they can do as they want they will use that opportunity to make more money, otherwise we wouldn't need net neutrality. They have billions of dollars that they spend in politics. You think the people at the FCC are going to be influanced by a couple million emails from all around the country? Or are they going to be influanced by the people that pay for them to get their jobs?

Well with that kind of sound reasoning and hard evidence it's a wonder you couldn't get through to me by now. Nope doesn't sound defeatist to me at all.

If you write an email you assume that they are idiots and they don't know that net neutrality is the right thing. Like they sit there and say "Jesus, did you see this email from Bad^Hat! I can't believe that's what net neutrality actually is!". Give me a break. You need to convince the people that vote for these assholes, you will never convince these people of anything by writing them an email, it's always a political calculation.

Okay now I'm convinced you're either dense or just dodging the argument to keep this debate going. Do you seriously think people are emailing in just to make the FCC aware of this issue? They've already taken it to court once, of course they ****ing know the details. The point is to make them aware of how strongly people feel about it, and how much we support their fight to keep internet freedoms alive. Is that the best way to approach the issue? Probably not, but perhaps it's the only way some people can contribute. Perhaps we don't all have the means to dedicate ourselves in other ways, ever think about that? In any case, just up and saying "welp emails are dumb and you're all lazy armchair warriors" is in no way a guarantee that they won't have some effect.

But please, go ahead and grace us with more of your wisdom. I'm sure you're just full of fresh ideas on how to remedy the problem.

 

[Raziaar]

PLEASE QUANTIFY HOW. WE'RE ALL EARS, DUDE.

He clearly stated he doesn't know how. One of his first posts in the thread.

And I would love to tell you how you can fix that but I'm at the point where I'm about ready to give up..

 

[No Limit]

Back when I lived in Louisiana, I actually had an exchange with my at-the-time congressman (or at least, someone speaking on his behalf) after sending him an email about net neutrality. He was against it, but he listened to my arguments and actually addressed some specific issues I brought up in my email. Frankly, you're being ridiculous here, thinking nobody reads emails, or thinking that they won't listen to what people are saying. Remember, these guys are up for re-election often.

So did this congressman change his position or did he simply give you a response? If he did not change his positionand just gave you a reason as to why not did you respond to his email? Did you get a reply to the follow up? Because looking at his record he did vote no on network neutrality last time it came up in 2006.

You say "the fact remains" as if you know for a certainty that government officials don't read email, but listen to phone calls or regular letters instead. But in actuality, the fact remains that you're pulling that assumption out of your ass, and my email inbox has evidence that you're wrong. A snippet:

I never said they don't read emails, I said they don't care about those emails.

So now that thats sorted, I'll address your other baseless assumptions. I have donated more than a hundred dollars to Free Press in support of their efforts, and I donate locally to support other political agendas to help improve my local communities. Example: Just last week, I signed two petitions (not online, an actual paper petition) in support of a local bill being presented that called for better work environments (things like a minimum of 5 days paid sick-leave in a year) and donated to the organization that was trying to get the word out about it.

So please, shut your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.

Good for you on all that, sure beats the hell out of wasting your time with emails.

Unless participating in "projects like that" doesn't make you an activist? In which case your point becomes even less clear.

Like I said those projects went nowhere because people wouldn't get motivated enough. So I don't get how you assumed I was calling myself an activist when I clearly said those projects failed.

Well with that kind of sound reasoning and hard evidence it's a wonder you couldn't get through to me by now. Nope doesn't sound defeatist to me at all.

This is the problem, you guys keep getting your penties in a bunch over what I'm saying but refuse to address the facts. You said the FCC knows the issue completely and your emails aren't meant to be informative, you just want to show them how strongly you feel about this issue. Let me ask you then. If the FCC clearly understands net neutrality then why would they be against it? And actually they aren't against it, it's the law makers that will screw this up. Again, the majority of those law makers don't believe in net neurality atleast on the house side.

 

[Escaep]

Why don't we all meet up, rent a bus, and drive to Congress. We can hand them emails we printed out whilst talking to each other on telephones sitting on chairs in front of computers.


I call shotgun.

 

[Bad^Hat]

This is the problem, you guys keep getting your penties in a bunch over what I'm saying but refuse to address the facts.

WHAT FACTS?!

 

[No Limit]

WHAT FACTS?!

The fact email doesn't do shit. You just ignored my question. If the FCC is completely familiar with what net neutrality is why would they be against it and how is your email going to change that?

 

[Bad^Hat]

The fact email doesn't do shit.

Okay, I'm done.

This has been an episode of "No Limit teaches the silly armchair warriors the error of their ways but leaves out the teaching part."

 

[arch5]

Maybe No Limit is anti-Net Neutrality and/or secretly works at Comcast.

 

[No Limit]

Okay, I'm done.

This has been an episode of "No Limit teaches the silly armchair warriors the error of their ways but leaves out the teaching part."

You saying you're done doesn't change the fact you don't have an answer to the question I asked you. These people that are elected are not idiots, they know what net neutrality is. Yet many of these officials are opposed to it. It has everything to do with special interests and your emails won't change that.

And this is not a defeatist attitude as you tried to suggest, I'm saying if you actually want to make a difference do something worthwhile.

 

[Wanted Bob]

I'm not quite sure where all this time wasting comes from. Writing an email at its longest would take you half an hour, if that. It really doesnt take away that much time out of your life, so I dont really see why you wouldnt just do it anyways even if you were skeptical.

 

[Darkside55]

Actually the letter is pre-written, so it takes you all of one minute to type in your info and hit "send."

 

[VirusType2]

Actually the letter is pre-written, so it takes you all of one minute to type in your info and hit "send."

That's right. Takes a few minutes.

Meanwhile, No Limit has about 20 posts in here, and probably spent a few hours telling us that those 3 minutes we spent is a waste of time.

 

[No Limit]

You know what else only takes a few minutes? Voting in online polls and signing online petitions. Get to it guys. again, it's literally the absolute least you could do.

 

[Stigmata]

No, clearly the absolute least someone could do is berate others for attempting to voice their opinion to their federal representatives.

 

[No Limit]

If you could show me one time an email campaign had any significant impact I will apologize to everyone here and fill out the form.

And me berating your lack of contribution isn't really the least I could do, I mean look at this thred, nothing easy about it. Even scored me my first infraction points in 4 years.

 

[Darkside55]

Actually, the absolute least someone could do is completely not give a shit one way or the other and not try to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another. The absolute least you could do is ignore the issue and its arguments, stay off the forum, lie in bed, and stare at the ceiling. Unmoving. Uncaring.

That is the absolute least you can do.

 

[Viperidae]

Don't forget 'not breathing' too. That would be the least.

 

[Vegeta897]

Since breathing is involuntary I think it would technically take more effort to not breathe. Especially once you start running out of breath.

 

[PvtRyan]

My stance on net neutrality: meh.

It's not an issue of ideology, it's not personal liberty vs corporate oppression. It's corporations (content providers) vs corporations (infrastructure providers).

The internet isn't dying, opposing net neutrality isn't necessarily evil and charging consumers for things like visiting Google would be corporate suicide as well as economic homicide for the US. Get over yourself, you bunch of armchair revolutionaries.

 

[No Limit]

My stance on net neutrality: meh.

It's not an issue of ideology, it's not personal liberty vs corporate oppression. It's corporations (content providers) vs corporations (infrastructure providers).

The internet isn't dying, opposing net neutrality isn't necessarily evil and charging consumers for things like visiting Google would be corporate suicide as well as economic homicide of the US. Get over yourself, you bunch of armchair revolutionaries.

Say Whaaaaaaa....

I'd argue with you but I'm worn out from berating everyone's contribution.

 

[Yuri]

The irony of that is ridiculous, No Limit.

 

[Krynn72]

The internet isn't dying, opposing net neutrality isn't necessarily evil and charging consumers for things like visiting Google would be corporate suicide as well as economic homicide for the US. Get over yourself, you bunch of armchair revolutionaries.

But charging consumers for things like visiting halflife2.net wouldn't even phase them. It would also mean that this site would die because nobody would pay a monthly premium to post here.

Here is the email I wrote to them (The pre-written one was lame).

You ask how an open internet is essential to my lifestyle? I use the internet for a great many things, not only for huge, popular sites like Facebook or Youtube, but for tiny, niche websites for special interests. For instance a website www.halflife2.net, which I have been an active member of for almost six years. It has a small, but active and dedicated community that discuss a multitude of topics ranging from video games to politics. Despite every day activity, the site still only has a few hundred daily visitor, not enough to make it something the corporations will care about.

I also visit sites that give me access to products I simply cannot find locally or on the major retailer websites. Things like hobby miniatures, specific crafts, and electronics. I do not fear the loss of the major names on the internet, because I'm certain that corporate interests would have them keep those sites in full function. However, it is the myriad of small, niche websites that make the internet the incredible tool that it is, and I very much doubt websites like these will survive any sort of priority-based bandwidth schemes that the corporations have talked about. The sites already have a small user base, and restricted access will likely mean that they would no longer have enough users to justify the cost of maintaining the site.

Whats worse, is that many industries have professionals that rely on an open internet to put our their portfolio. Take for example the position of a 3D artist in the video game industry. Every employer in this industry today requires an online portfolio when you apply for a position. On a controlled bandwidth scheme my portfolio site will almost certainly require some sort of premium package for someone to view it, meaning much fewer hits, and a much smaller chance of being noticed and hired.

It may be wrong to call it censorship, but ultimately it accomplishes the same thing. Without regulation, Corporations will make it to expensive for niche sites, or special purpose sites to exist. It will do a lot of harm to industries and to the individuals who use the internet. Without regulation, corporations will use the power to determine what citizens can say or do online. Please, reclassify the internet and help protect us against such an event.

Yes, I even mentioned hl2.net in it!