Apologies for slavery?

[repiV]

Clicky

What's with this shit, anyway?
The first problem is that this happened hundreds of years ago, when none of us were alive. It's pretty bloody stupid to apologise for something you didn't do.
The second is that it was the British who were the first to outlaw slavery (and we certainly didn't invent it), and to campaign tirelessly to eliminate the slave trade around the world. If anything, the world owes us a debt of gratitude.

 

[Absinthe]

I too don't believe an apology is required.

 

[Gray Fox]

Clicky

What's with this shit, anyway?
The first problem is that this happened hundreds of years ago, when none of us were alive. It's pretty bloody stupid to apologise for something you didn't do.
The second is that it was the British who were the first to outlaw slavery (and we certainly didn't invent it), and to campaign tirelessly to eliminate the slave trade around the world. If anything, the world owes us a debt of gratitude.

The world does not owe you jack shit.

And an apology is certainly appropriate, because it did happen, and today's people may not bear any direct responsibility, but Britain has and still does enjoy the benefits it got from it's days of slaving.

And even if it didn't, an apology is still a nice gesture since an apology is an expression of regret.

Slavery is certainly a disgusting act that should be regretted.

 

[Pulse]

What a load of bollocks. I fail to see how abusing the discrimination of his ancestors in order to get an apology out of a country who initially took measures to abolish slavery is going to do much good, other than to further prove that Britain will bow down for fear of reprisal.

Hey while we are at it, let's demand an apology from Germany for two world wars that occurred over 60 years ago! It's perfectly justified, we're just 'clearing the air'!

 

[Barney_Calhoun]

There are currently millions of child sex slaves throughout the world. And instead of giving a damn about them, certain groups of people have the f***ing cheek to demand an "apology", and even reparations, for something that happened hundreds of years ago. It makes me sick.

 

[Solaris]

Clicky

What's with this shit, anyway?
The first problem is that this happened hundreds of years ago, when none of us were alive. It's pretty bloody stupid to apologise for something you didn't do.
The second is that it was the British who were the first to outlaw slavery (and we certainly didn't invent it), and to campaign tirelessly to eliminate the slave trade around the world. If anything, the world owes us a debt of gratitude.

A debt of gratitude?
So if someone murders your family and decides to stop when they get to your second aunt, you should be grateful to them?

Of course we should apologies. Well I shouldn't, I don't walk around with a Union Jack saying how I'm proud to be British, I despise many many aspects of the British state. Britain has an awful history and anyone who's proud of it should be forced to face up to issues such as slavery and apologies for it.

It's retarded to apologise for slavery, but it's equally retarded to be patriotic.

 

[Absinthe]

The world does not owe you jack shit.

And yet the world owes this group an apology for slavery? Hey, if you're ancient, then go ahead and make yours. Personally, I have nothing to be sorry for.

And an apology is certainly appropriate, because it did happen, and today's people may not bear any direct responsibility, but Britain has and still does enjoy the benefits it got from it's days of slaving.

Oh, so I see. This is an apology derived from circumstance. repiV doesn't own any slaves, but because he might be better off being a white person (something he had no control over), it's important he says "I'm sorry".

What?

And even if it didn't, an apology is still a nice gesture since an apology is an expression of regret.

Slavery is certainly a disgusting act that should be regretted.

It is regrettable. But an apology implies blame. Nobody should apologize for something they didn't do, especially as a demand.

 

[Pulse]

There are currently millions of child sex slaves throughout the world. And instead of giving a damn about them, certain groups of people have the f***ing cheek to demand an "apology", and even reparations, for something that happened hundreds of years ago. It makes me sick.

Again, it goes to show how certain pompous individuals from ethnic minority groups in this country will try to profit on indirect racial discrimination.

Almost as bad as our dole system.

 

[Gray Fox]

And yet the world owes this group an apology for slavery? Hey, if you're ancient, then go ahead and make yours. Personally, I have nothing to be sorry for.



Oh, so I see. This is an apology derived from circumstance. repiV doesn't own any slaves, but because he might be better off being a white person (something he had no control over), it's important he says "I'm sorry".

What?



It is regrettable. But an apology implies blame. Nobody should apologize for something they didn't do, especially as a demand.

In this case the blame is on their ancestors, not on them. By apologizing, they are admitting that what their ancestors did was a horrible act. And it's all the more appropriate since the advantages gained by past slavery are still enjoyed today. Or do you believe that hundreds of years of slavery on our part didn't tip the scales in our favor.

Now this apology would not put blame on today's people, nor would it entitle any compensation, since that would be infinitely hard to calculate. It would simple be admitting that slavery by their ancestors was bad, and they apologize for it.

 

[Darkside55]

Hey the UK's getting the same bullshit we get. Welcome to the club. :dozey:

This is one of those things I hate because, honestly, what is the fvcking point? They want an apology from people who had nothing to do with slavery to absolutely no effect. It's not even as if an apology will make them feel better, or make everything better. It's just an ego thing.

Nobody even gives a fvck about slavery anymore, it's just more ammunition when playing the race card.

 

[DeusExMachina]

If this were 1800s, I'd gladly abide by this. But its not. We gave the Japanese reparations for putting them in camps during WWII, but that's because they were actually alive to receive it. We're gonna give thousands of people reparations because their ancestors were mistreated? Slavery is a horrible thing, but so is exploitation.

 

[Gray Fox]

If this were 1800s, I'd gladly abide by this. But its not. We gave the Japanese reparations for putting them in camps during WWII, but that's because they were actually alive to receive it. We're gonna give thousands of people reparations because their ancestors were mistreated? Slavery is a horrible thing, but so is exploitation.

Now that I do not understand, I mean the Japanese started the war, did much worse with Brits, what the hell was Britain supposed to do, just let enemy soldiers walk freely. Add to that Japans has not apologized nor admitted guilt, for anything in WWII

 

[Absinthe]

In this case the blame is on their ancestors, not on them. By apologizing, they are admitting that what their ancestors did was a horrible act. And it's all the more appropriate since the advantages gained by past slavery are still enjoyed today. Or do you believe that hundreds of years of slavery on our part didn't tip the scales in our favor.

I'm still not understanding this. Why do I need to apologize? I had nothing to do with slavery. Why is not enough that I admit my ancestors engaged in deplorable acts? Why do I now need to insinuate that I have some kind of ownership in this issue? I don't. Slavery's bad, my forefathers weren't stellar, 'nuff said.

The only reason any apology is demanded is to exploit feelings of racial victimization.

Effects of slavery are still enjoyed today. Sure, I'd buy that. I still don't see why that should mean anything to me. An apology out of circumstance is just plain stupid, because I have no control over that. That's like a child being born in a rich family saying he's sorry for having money to a poor kid. A thoughtful gesture, perhaps. But it still makes no sense.

Conclusion: I don't need to apologize for my great great grandaddy.

 

[gick]

I certainly dont buy the argument that the world should thank us for abolishing the trade, as Solaris pointed out it'd be like someone murdering you family and then expecting a thank you for stopping at your Aunt.

However, the idea of giving an apology is bloody stupid. Nobody alive today had anything to do with the trade, nobody alive today was victimised by the trade. Its pointless. Also, it tends to be forgotten that the people who actually captured the slaves were the more developed West Africans, who would kidnap neighbouring people and sell them to the Europeans. I dont see anyone calling for reparations from their decendants.

 

[Absinthe]

Also, it tends to be forgotten that the people who actually captured the slaves were the more developed West Africans, who would kidnap neighbouring people and sell them to the Europeans. I dont see anyone calling for reparations from their decendants.

Good point.

 

[<RJMC>]

my questiong is why they dont apologize?
just make a speech about it and them shake hands whit yo brotha and everybody dance to rick james music

so why they dont apology?

 

[Solaris]

I certainly dont buy the argument that the world should thank us for abolishing the trade, as Solaris pointed out it'd be like someone murdering you family and then expecting a thank you for stopping at your Aunt.

However, the idea of giving an apology is bloody stupid. Nobody alive today had anything to do with the trade, nobody alive today was victimised by the trade. Its pointless. Also, it tends to be forgotten that the people who actually captured the slaves were the more developed West Africans, who would kidnap neighbouring people and sell them to the Europeans. I dont see anyone calling for reparations from their decendants.

Yes, but at the same time, we have Brown wanting to introduce a British Pride day, everyone waving flags around on st. Georges day. More people being 'proud to be British'. The country should apologize. Where people die the country lives on. Just as we continue to repay loans we took out hundreds of years ago, and obey treaties signed before any of us were alive. The head of state should apologise.

And also for all the patriotic people, they should have to face the reality that this country has very little to proud of in it's complete history.

 

[Sulkdodds]

It seems to me that you are only allowed to oppose an apology if you agreed with Badger in that Nationalism thread - and only allowed to advocate one if you disagreed.

If you accept you can be proud of something you had no control over - the accident of your birth - and proud of the deeds of people who weren't you and didn't even live within the same century, then you must also accept culpability for the bad things these people, logically unrelated to you, have done.

Conversely, if you believe we can not validly take any credit for the triumphs of our ancestors, then I don't see how you can imagine we need to accept responsibility - or that an apology from us would be anything more than entirely meaningless.

 

[Xendance]

I've recently finished learning about the slave trade in school. I reckon an apology is not neccesary since none of we're alive, and we cant help that.
Of course, many people live in poverty today because of the slave trade, but Britian were the first to eliminate it.

 

[repiV]

And also for all the patriotic people, they should have to face the reality that this country has very little to proud of in it's complete history.

That's not a reality - that's your opinion. Britain, more than any other nation, has shaped the world as it is today and is responsible for the technological prowess that we enjoy. We were the first industrialised nation, the greatest empire ever seen, one of the earliest democracies and the centre of the civilised world.
If you want to walk around mouthing off about how ashamed we should all be of our country, be my guest - maybe that gives you more street cred or something.

 

[Steve]

It just makes me so mad that people seek apologies from people who've done nothing for things that didn't happen to them.

They should be more busy asking for apologies from the CIA for crack, or from the Reagan administration for AIDS.

If you accept you can be proud of something you had no control over - the accident of your birth

Hey, your parents might have partied to hard in the 80s, sulk, but I was no accident.

 

[Solaris]

That's not a reality - that's your opinion. Britain, more than any other nation, has shaped the world as it is today and is responsible for the technological prowess that we enjoy. We were the first industrialised nation, the greatest empire ever seen, one of the earliest democracies and the centre of the civilised world.
If you want to walk around mouthing off about how ashamed we should all be of our country, be my guest - maybe that gives you more street cred or something.

Why should we be proud of the empire?
Something that was created by slaughtering tribesmen in the hundreds of thousands, occupying foreign lands, denying other people basic human rights.

 

[99.vikram]

The second is that it was the British who were the first to outlaw slavery (and we certainly didn't invent it), and to campaign tirelessly to eliminate the slave trade around the world. If anything, the world owes us a debt of gratitude.

You guys eliminated a problem you created. Square one.

With that said, no apology is required here IMO.

 

[Qonfused]

No apology needed. Reparations are bullshit as well.

 

[Llama]

Vikram: Are you trying to suggest the British INVENTED slavery? :dozey:

 

[99.vikram]

Vikram: Are you trying to suggest the British INVENTED slavery? :dozey:

No - UK, Spain and Portugal jointly perfected it.

EDIT: I agree whit rjmc

 

[repiV]

Why should we be proud of the empire?
Something that was created by slaughtering tribesmen in the hundreds of thousands, occupying foreign lands, denying other people basic human rights.

The empire raised the standard of living around the world immensely. Would you rather have lived in Roman England or pre-Roman England...?

You guys eliminated a problem you created. Square one.

With that said, no apology is required here IMO.

We didn't create slavery. It's just politically correct to associate slavery with the evil white man. We were just better at it than anyone else, which isn't a question of morality but rather of capability.

 

[Solaris]

The empire raised the standard of living around the world immensely. Would you rather have lived in Roman England or pre-Roman England...?

Oh come on, you're defending British imperialism because 'it raised the standard of living'.

I highly doubt that, give us some evidence please.

 

[kirovman]

A true apology for colonial behaviour would involve giving back everything we've ever taken. Which isn't going to happen.

 

[Solaris]

A true apology for colonial behaviour would involve giving back everything we've ever taken. Which isn't going to happen.

It should.

 

[Absinthe]

It should.

Awesome. I know that in the case of United States, we should give our land back to the Native Americans. Well, to an extent. We'll allow them to have the land, but we're keeping our buildings and automobiles, since we're the ones that created those. And they're in for a surprise if they think they're gonna mooch off of our cable.

I guess most of the population in North America can move back to Europe. Maybe George Bush can get a government position in your neck of the woods! Sure you'd love that, eh?

Oh wait, shit. What about the mix-breeds? Well, I guess they can be deported wherever. "Born in the USA" be damned, we don't have any claim to this soil! Worst case scenario, there's no room for them elsewhere, so we jumbo-drop them into the sea.

...

Shit happens. Millions upon millions of people got a raw deal in life throughout history. Best thing you can do is move on. I can guarantee you that any attempt to restore "what was once rightfully owned" by others would turn into a massive cluster****. We're not even talking in the last 200 years or so. If you're going to do it, you have to do it properly. Try reverting everything back to BC.

 

[repiV]

Oh come on, you're defending British imperialism because 'it raised the standard of living'.

I highly doubt that, give us some evidence please.

Why do you need evidence?
Highly advanced civilisation takes control of a regressive country - what exactly do you think the result would be?
Likewise, we have the Romans to thank for the massive advancements they gave us thousands of years ago. They transformed this country, and they transformed the world. As we have.

 

[Gray Fox]

Awesome. I know that in the case of United States, we should give our land back to the Native Americans. Well, to an extent. We'll allow them to have the land, but we're keeping our buildings and automobiles, since we're the ones that created those. And they're in for a surprise if they think they're gonna mooch off of our cable.

I guess most of the population in North America can move back to Europe. Maybe George Bush can get a government position in your neck of the woods! Sure you'd love that, eh?

Oh wait, shit. What about the mix-breeds? Well, I guess they can be deported wherever. "Born in the USA" be damned, we don't have any claim to this soil! Worst case scenario, there's no room for them elsewhere, so we jumbo-drop them into the sea.

...

Shit happens. Millions upon millions of people got a raw deal in life throughout history. Best thing you can do is move on. I can guarantee you that any attempt to restore "what was once rightfully owned" by others would turn into a massive cluster****. We're not even talking in the last 200 years or so. If you're going to do it, you have to do it properly. Try reverting everything back to BC.

It does not have to impractical in all cases, there are probably still remote parts of a country with a culture and maybe even a different language that are in the possession of other country's. In that case it would not be so impractical to give the land back. Take Hong Kong as an example.

 

[repiV]

It does not have to impractical in all cases, there are probably still remote parts of a country with a culture and maybe even a different language that are in the possession of other country's. In that case it would not be so impractical to give the land back. Take Hong Kong as an example.

Over a million people fled Hong Kong - one of the most amazing places on earth - due to the handover. Without our influence, it would be an uninhabited rock - now it's the fourth most important city in the world, with a far higher quality of life than mainland China (and in many respects, the nation that created it) and an attractive place for migrants from the entire world.
And in fifty years time, it will no longer be the jewel that it is.

Ooh, the evils of imperialism!

(By the way, we bought Kowloon and leased the New Territories - no conquering involved. The only reason we gave it back was because the lease on the NT expired.)

 

[Gray Fox]

Over a million people fled Hong Kong - one of the most amazing places on earth - due to the handover. Without our influence, it would be an uninhabited rock - now it's the fourth most important city in the world, with a far higher quality of life than mainland China and an attractive place for migrants from the entire world.
And in fifty years time, it will no longer be the jewel that it is.

Ooh, the evils of imperialism!

Regardless of some of the effects of imperialism, what matters is what it was intended for. Britain did not conquer so much of the world, to spread it's wealth and knowledge, and to help people. It did it to improve itself without little care for the conquered people, and it did it in a disgusting and ruthless way.

Now tell me are you also proud of the many conflict in Africa that are caused in large because western colonial powers divided tribes, family and ethnic groups by arbitrary borders, and made other who hated each other live together.

 

[repiV]

Regardless of some of the effects of imperialism, what matters is what it was intended for. Britain did not conquer so much of the world, to spread it's wealth and knowledge, and to help people. It did it to improve itself without little care for the conquered people, and it did it in a disgusting and ruthless way.

All countries act in their own self-interest all of the time. What's your point?
The fact remains, a vast amount of the most desirable places to live nowadays are former British colonies - Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, the USA, Singapore...

Now tell me are you also proud of the many conflict in Africa that are causes in large because western colonial powers divided tribes, family and ethnic groups by arbitrary borders.

Actually, the conflicts in Africa are the fault of the people starting the conflicts - the Africans.
Except, of course, in your world, where big bad whitey is always to blame for everything wrong with the planet.

 

[Gray Fox]

All countries act in their own self-interest all of the time. What's your point?
The fact remains, a vast amount of the most desirable places to live nowadays are former British colonies - Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, the USA, Singapore...

The same can be said for any individual, yet we still condemn and jail those that go to far like killing. That is no excuse nor does it justify the actions of a country. Fact is, it was wrong, and disgusting what Britain did. Weather or not a colony benefited in the end, had more to do with incidental circumstances then true intentions by Britain, all historical evidance point to the British ruthlessly exploiting the people of it's colonies.

And it's certainly not something to be proud of.
Oh and, when mentioning British colonies, try to include all. Not just the ones that you think support your twisted argument.

Actually, the conflicts in Africa are the fault of the people starting the conflicts - the Africans.

The Africans themselves do carry a great deal of the blame I would never deny that,but you basically proudly flaunt with the positive effects of colonial rule and totally disregard the bad.
Sudan and rewanda are very good examples what happens when two ethnically and religiously different people are forced to live in one country and represent itself to the world in that way.

Except, of course, in your world, where big bad whitey is always to blame for everything wrong with the planet.

You have absolutely no real basis for your assertion. And seeing your simplistic reasoning and childish view of the world, I believe it applies much more to you then me.

 

[Beerdude26]

Actually, the conflicts in Africa are the fault of the people starting the conflicts - the Africans.

That's true, but it's also a fact that many groups who didn't agree with each other suddenly were put in a country together and they started fighting for the political power (and thus the country). We kinda added fuel to the lumbering fire.

 

[xcellerate]

Why is it only blacks that are raising hell over slavery...I don't hear any Egyptians wanting apologies for the pyramids.

"Wahhh wahhh I'm gonna complain about something I never had to be apart of, waaah waaaah." How about this guy, rather than whining about old slavery, step up and do something about sex trade that's going on RIGHT NOW.

...it's just a subject that REALLY upsets me...

 

[Steve]

Why is it only blacks that are raising hell over slavery...I don't hear any Egyptians wanting apologies for the pyramids.

Err...didn't Jews build the pyramids?