Apologies for slavery?

The world is a cold, brutal place - the sooner you realise that the better.
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Not true, but there is something to take notice on. If you were'nt doing it, someone was doing it to you.
 
repiV said:
Let me guess...despite the above statement, you also champion multiculturalism?
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I won't get into the multiculturalism debate now (I plan to write something on it later, as it's now the easter holidays) but I'd like to ask you this:

The opposite to multiculturalism, where you allow cultures to co-exist without interference, would be integration...ism(?) where the country retains a single, widespread and to an extent homogenous culture - a Britishness. The Conservatives and Labour are both very interested in promoting the notion that such a thing exists, for reasons we probably need not go into now - see Gordon Brown's recent article claiming that there's a "golden thread" of commitment to justice and fair play that runs through our history (rubbish, I say).

But if you believe there's more to Britain than the simply materialistic aspects - the money circulating through the country's veins, the movement of cars and people, the institutions of state and government, the borders, and so on, and so on - if you believe that 'Britain' is more than just an arbitrarily defined section of the world gradually built up into a nationstate - if you believe there is a continuity between the modern Briton and the successes of our history which allows us to be proud of our nation (as you assert in the Nationalism thread) - then surely you must also accept that, as we are proud of our successes, we must be sorry for our failures - and that Britain must apologise for slavery?

Whoops, that went ever-so-crazy-rhetorical. Also I already said this earlier in the thread but I still haven't seen it addressed and would like a response. As far as I can see, a belief in Britain's culture (as you appear to possess), and asserting that the people of today don't need to apologise for the actions of yesterday because they're not the same people and they're not responsible, seem incompatible to me.

Also, regardless of how awesome we turned out to be for the African nations (not even going to get into it - don't know enough for a start), slavery is in itself something inherently awful and something to be sorry for if you're going to be sorry for anything.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Not true, but there is something to take notice on. If you were'nt doing it, someone was doing it to you.
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Success generally requires that you defeat competitors, who are then relegated to a lower station in life.
We see it in business and in education and opportunities, the less fortunate see it in whether they get to eat today or avoid disease.
We only have the privilege of the former condition because there are people who have been and are willing to kill and die to protect what we have. And because we have collectively defeated or out-developed weaker nations. We didn't get this lifestyle through joy and charity - we got it through pain and suffering, both ours and others. Individually, we must suffer in order to prosper. To truly get anywhere in life, you must fight for it.
The world will always be cold and brutal, so long as resources are finite. Most of us are just shielded from that reality.

Sulkdodds said:
I won't get into the multiculturalism debate now (I plan to write something on it later, as it's now the easter holidays) but I'd like to ask you this:

The opposite to multiculturalism, where you allow cultures to co-exist without interference, would be integration...ism(?) where the country retains a single, widespread and to an extent homogenous culture - a Britishness. The Conservatives and Labour are both very interested in promoting the notion that such a thing exists, for reasons we probably need not go into now - see Gordon Brown's recent article claiming that there's a "golden thread" of commitment to justice and fair play that runs through our history (rubbish, I say).

But if you believe there's more to Britain than the simply materialistic aspects - the money circulating through the country's veins, the movement of cars and people, the institutions of state and government, the borders, and so on, and so on - if you believe that 'Britain' is more than just an arbitrarily defined section of the world gradually built up into a nationstate - if you believe there is a continuity between the modern Briton and the successes of our history which allows us to be proud of our nation (as you assert in the Nationalism thread) - then surely you must also accept that, as we are proud of our successes, we must be sorry for our failures - and that Britain must apologise for slavery?

Whoops, that went ever-so-crazy-rhetorical. Also I already said this earlier in the thread but I still haven't seen it addressed and would like a response. As far as I can see, a belief in Britain's culture (as you appear to possess), and asserting that the people of today don't need to apologise for the actions of yesterday because they're not the same people and they're not responsible, seem incompatible to me.

Also, regardless of how awesome we turned out to be for the African nations (not even going to get into it - don't know enough for a start), slavery is in itself something inherently awful and something to be sorry for if you're going to be sorry for anything.
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Whilst I might believe in this country (well, I don't believe in it at the moment - but that's the fault of a small minority who have forced their warped ideology upon the rest of us without consulting anybody), I don't take responsibility for its successes. I benefit from them, and I respect those who made us what we are, but that's it.
Similarly, I do not take responsibility for slavery - I merely acknowledge that it's one of the darker spots in our history.
However, I don't believe slavery has ever defined Britishness - practically every culture on earth has practiced slavery in some form or another at some time or continues to. We were just better at it - which demonstrates nothing but our logistical superiority.
Unlike other nations, however, we put a stop to slavery around the world.
 
No pride should be taken in stopping slavery.
 
That's just stupid to say, Solaris. I know what you're trying to imply, don't get me wrong; That freeing another human being from a terrible existance is something the person deserves, and not really your own... own, if you can say that. The problem is that, well, we don't live in a fairyland. Slavery still exists today. And if you can't pat yourself on the shoulder for freeing another human-being, what motivation would you have for going against repressive governments like the UAE, China, most of Africa and the Middle-East, etc, where slavery is still commonplace and in a lot of instances encouraged? Defeating something as ugly as slavery in a political and social arena is a massive achievement on any scale, because the places in which you'll find it, you'll face a backwards culture that will fight you every step on the way.

EDIT: Something on the general topic - The abolishment of slavery is as much the white man's own as the black man's own, because for the white man, it represents a progressive, constructive development in our culture. For the black man, it represents a life that's generally worth living, and a huge symbolic victory. The best part is the political outcome of it: When two parts come together like the white and black race has, it inevitably inspires others to do the same. That's my point of view. Not complimenting oneself for achievements like the before-mentioned is a dangerous thing because once you're in the "everyone deserves that" grove, you won't have any will to strive for what you believe is good, fair, and just.

Grounded in the above, I believe reparations for slavery is counterproductive and simply just the revitalization of old, bad blood, anger. This would be a good idea if this was initiated right after the legal abolishment of slavery, but it's too late now, partly because so much time has passed, and because the mentality that allowed the suffering of the black man in America is pretty much dead now, and you would be taking issue with a non-existent enemy, shadowboxing if you will.
 
repiV said:
Ah, oversight.
How is whether it's institutionalised relevant? We've never had institutionalised segregation over here, but London is a pretty damn segregated place.
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I guarantee you it makes a difference. I don't think a "side-effect" segregation that would come from multiculturalism would force people to drink from different water fountains.
 
Feel free to disagree with me on this one which I guess most of you will.

I don't see a need to apologize for slavery. It is something from a different time, and when as a society people decide it is no longer morally right (beliefs in what is right change over time) it is stopped. We only think it is wrong now because now our views of right and wrong have changed and who knows in another 300 years they might have changed back. Yes today slavery is wrong but back then it wasn't we shouldn't be forced to apologize for the past no matter what that past was, we only need to fix it now.
 
Robbo said:
Feel free to disagree with me on this one which I guess most of you will.

I don't see a need to apologize for slavery. It is something from a different time, and when as a society people decide it is no longer morally right (beliefs in what is right change over time) it is stopped. We only think it is wrong now because now our views of right and wrong have changed and who knows in another 300 years they might have changed back. Yes today slavery is wrong but back then it wasn't we shouldn't be forced to apologize for the past no matter what that past was, we only need to fix it now.
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I think in 300 years time we'll all be vegetarians.

I can think of a good case for it too.
 
Solaris said:
I think in 300 years time we'll all be vegetarians.

I can think of a good case for it too.
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We'll probably grow healthier meat like plants in 50 years.
So no more guilt about cruel animal treatment.
 
Robbo said:
Feel free to disagree with me on this one which I guess most of you will.

I don't see a need to apologize for slavery. It is something from a different time, and when as a society people decide it is no longer morally right (beliefs in what is right change over time) it is stopped. We only think it is wrong now because now our views of right and wrong have changed and who knows in another 300 years they might have changed back. Yes today slavery is wrong but back then it wasn't we shouldn't be forced to apologize for the past no matter what that past was, we only need to fix it now.
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I see your point - my history teacher always told me never to apply modern standards/morals/ethics to the past (unless you are deliberately comparing them of course). I think he's right.
 
Gray Fox said:
We'll probably grow healthier meat like plants in 50 years.
So no more guilt about cruel animal treatment.
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A field mouse getting killed by a thresher is SOOOO humane. :rolling:
 
I remember reading about how sythesizing meat is plausible and probably going to happen in the coming years.
 
I apologize for slavery.

Thread over... all black people are now satisfied. We can all go be not-racist now.
 
gick said:
I see your point - my history teacher always told me never to apply modern standards/morals/ethics to the past (unless you are deliberately comparing them of course). I think he's right.
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I would disagree completely, I think everyone should be subject to the current moral zeitgeist, past and present.
 
Krynn, reminds me of a recent South Park episode - Stan's dad says ****** on TV, and he goes to Jesse Jackson to apologize. Jesse Jackson drops his pants and underwear to allow him to kiss his ass. "Go on, apologize!":D
 
yes because apologising for racism should somehow be seen as an excercise in sycophantism? that is what you are suggesting ..no offense but you're an idiot
 
no try to read more into it ..it's far more complex than just remembering a tv show ..but I'm not going to bother explaining it as it should be self evident
 
Stern's inappropriate comments aside - as the black kid, Token, explained to Stan - "Jesse Jackson is not the emperor of black people!"

I think there's one bottom line to draw from this - Apologies for slavery is too late, and it would only serve symbolic status. And not a positive one, because while it can of course contribute positively to the individuals' lives, it sets an ugly, grim milestone of appeasement that enforces the idea that all blacks hate white people because of what we have done to their ancestors, and that we, the white people of today, owe the descendants of those people anything we do not owe anyone else; The possibility of friendship. It sets a double-standard that allows positive racism to thrive, and we can all agree that positive racism generates more racism, and there's the problem.

There are so many different opinions on this issue, and you can find people who agree with reperations on both sides of the racial line, but I could imagine that the problem is this: The black people who support this, are, in my opinion, not contributing anything positive. The white people who support this are the people who try to put themselves in a proverbial shoe that they imagine fits all black people; One that's always too small.

Besides, if reparations were issued, we'd have way too many record labels, and chicken would be too expensive. That's a little Chappellic humor for ya there! :angel:
 
CptStern said:
no try to read more into it ..it's far more complex than just remembering a tv show ..but I'm not going to bother explaining it as it should be self evident
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He obviously wasn't agreeing with that part of the show, he just recalled an episode. It was South Park ffs. They made a joke out of it, and as you might be able to tell from his last post, they ended the show basically saying that apologizing for it is stupid. You called him an idiot for no reason.
 
Rather than all this stuff about apologies going on, why don't they put their money where their mouths are and pledge to abolish the slavery which is going on to this very day, including trafficking through the very countries we live in?

Also, I would like to see The House of Lords apologise to the British people for Serfdom.
 
Id like to see Bill Gates apologize for monopolizing.
 
I'd like to see Waddingtons apologise for Monopoly.
 
Oh, of course Bill Gates will apologize. Of course he will if you just stand a little to the left. A little more, little more...

The last thing you'll see is Bill Gates standing above you, uttering the final words you will ever hear - "TRUSTe this!"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waddingtons

God, honestly, why would I post that if they weren't the publishers? :p

Most venerable of all British boardgame manufacturers - but they eventually spawned something so horrible, so profoundly awful, so frightening in its family-shattering, brother-stabbing, greed-inducing chaos, that it has transformed the modern world for the worse. A bit like Risk, which kills families.

They also made Lost Valley of the Dinosaurs, which was awesome.
 
repiV said:
Clicky

What's with this shit, anyway?
The first problem is that this happened hundreds of years ago, when none of us were alive. It's pretty bloody stupid to apologise for something you didn't do.
The second is that it was the British who were the first to outlaw slavery (and we certainly didn't invent it), and to campaign tirelessly to eliminate the slave trade around the world. If anything, the world owes us a debt of gratitude.
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So assuming i understand correctly this happened hundreds of years ago and you had **** all to do with it, but we do owe you a debt of gratitude for it?
 
You seem to have ignored the qualifier "if anything".
 
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