Are you a male lesbian?

[Raziaar]

Weirdest topic goes to me!

Seriously though... it's an interesting question. Are you a male lesbian? I found this weird article, that details this situation. Interesting read, and I can imigine some of my friends have been this way before(and maybe even me somewhat in the past)

Since it is an angelfire website, I wish not to suck up their bandwith. So instead, I will just quote the contents.

Pgs. 125 - 127
Shyness & Love: Causes, Consequences, and Treatment
Dr. Brian G. Gilmartin
University Press of America, Inc.
1987

The "Male Lesbian" Concept

Another potentially useful diagnostic label is that of "male lesbian".
On the surface the whole idea appears ludicrous; everyone knows that
lesbians are female homosexuals who want to "make it" vis-a-vis another
woman. Yet in selecting the men to be interviewed for this research the
seemingly incongruous notion of "male lesbian" kept staring me in the
face again and again. For this reason, I don't think that any book pre-
tending to be complete on the subject of chronic love-shyness in men
can afford to ignore the "male lesbian" idea.
Specifically, a "male lesbian" is a heterosexual man who wishes
that he had been born a woman, but who (even if he had been a woman)
could only make love to another woman and never to a man. Unlike
the transsexual, the "male lesbian" does not feel himself to be "a woman
trapped inside the body of a man". Moreover, none of the love-shy men
studied for this research entertained any wishes or fantasies of any kind
pertinent to the idea of obtaining a sex change operation. All wanted to
keep their male genitalia; all wanted to remain as males. However, all
deeply envied the perogatives of the female gender and truly believed
that these perogatives fitted their own inborn temperaments far more
harmoniously than the pattern of behavioral expectations to which males
are required to adhere. The following represent some typical comments
from love-shy males:

"From the time I was very, very young, I had always wished that I
had been born a girl. I know I would have been much happier as a
girl because I have always been attracted to the kinds of things that
girls do. But every time I think about how great it would have been
if I had been born a girl, I immediately realize that if I had been born
a girl I would be a lesbian. I have always strongly disliked the idea
of doing anything with my own sex. I despise men. Just thinking
about making love to a man, even as a woman, makes me want to
throw up! But I would also never want to play football or baseball
or any of the other games boys are supposed to like playing. I never
wanted to have anything to do with the male sex, on any level. So,
like if I had been born a girl as 1 would have wanted, I would
definitely be a lesbian because I'd be falling in love with and having
sex with girls instead of with men." (40-year old heterosexual love-
shy man.)

"To be perfectly frank, I don't think I would be shy at all if it wasn't
for this goddam norm that says that only the man can make the first
move with a woman in asking for dates. I mean if both sexes had
equal responsibility for having to suffer the indignity of having to
make the first move, I just know I would have been married fourteen
or maybe fifteen years ago." (35-year old love-shy man.)

"Well, I don't know if I'd actually like to be a woman. All I know
is that I've always envied women because they can play the passive
role and still get married. I think our society is extremely cruel to
men. It treats them like second class citizens all the time while women
get treated like prima donnas. When you write your book I hope
you emphasize the fact that men have feelings too. I mean, men are
human beings too, and they have feelings just as much as any woman
does. I think it's rotten and stinking the way it's always the man
who is made to suffer--like in the military, for example. Just because
a person happens to be a male he has to suffer all the horrors and
indignities of the military establishment and the selective slavery
system. If you're a man you're not supposed to feel any pain. You're
not supposed to have any feelings. You're supposed to be just like
a piece of steel and press forward no matter what harm or pain
comes to you. Well, I was lucky in being able to avoid the military--
thank God! But when it comes to getting a woman there doesn't
seem to be any way of getting around these extremely cruel social
rules that insist that only the man can be allowed to make the first
approach with a woman .... If I was writing a book on shyness
I'd hollar and shout on every page that the only way to solve the
problem is to change these cruel social rules. You tell your readers
that we've got to change the rules. And we've got to keep telling
our daughters from the time they are little that they have just as
much responsibility as men for making the first move in starting
romantic relationships." (38-year old love-shy man.)

Male lesbians differ from both transsexuals and homosexuals in that
they cannot conceive of themselves making love to a man. For example,
after sex change surgery the male transsexual almost always wants to
begin making love to a man AS A WOMAN. The male homosexual wants
to make love AS A MAN to a man. The male lesbian, on the other hand,
wishes that he had been born a woman. But he always makes it clear
that if he indeed had been born a woman he would be a full-fledged
lesbian. In other words, he would want to socialize exclusively with
women and he would choose female partners exclusively for love-mak-
ing and for sexmaking activity. In short, a secret fantasy of many love-
shy men is to be a beautiful woman who lives with and makes love with
another beautiful woman.
The love-shy men studied for this book all reluctantly accepted the
fact that they are males. And none of them had ever revealed any trans-
vestite tendencies. Thus, none of them had ever experienced any urge
to dress up as a woman or to put on lipstick or nail polish, etc. Since
they could not be a woman, most of them visualized themselves as a
man romancing a beautiful woman. And most of them had begun doing
this from a much earlier age in life than had the large majority of non-
shy heterosexual men.
As the later chapters of this book will clearly demonstrate, many
of the love-shy men studied never liked their own gender very much.
As young children most of them had avoided playmates of their own
sex. And most of them had envied the girls' play groups and play
activities. They had come to view conventional societal expectations as
cruel and callously insensitive because they perceived the girls' peer
groups and play activities as being their "natural terrain". Hence, they
had often thought to themselves that if they could only find a way of
gaining acceptance into the all-female peer group they would find hap-
piness, inner peace and contentment.
From a very early age in life onward, the love-shys felt somehow
"different" from their male peers. Something inside of themselves told
them that they did not belong around male peers. Male peer group
activities appeared foreign and often totally unappealing to them. And
they tended to view males and their peer group activities with feelings
of total and complete alienation and detachment. As one love-shy man
expressed it, "Whenever I watched the boys in my school playing I
might just as well have been watching a bunch of bear cubs play. I knew
they were having a good time; but I just didn't feel that I belonged to
their species. I knew that I belonged somewhere else, but I did not know
how to find that someplace else." The "someplace else" referred to was,
of course, an all-girl peer group.
And so the male lesbian (1) does not want to play with males, (2) does
not want to make love to or experience sex with males, (3) does not
have male recreational interests, and (4) does not even want to procreate
male children. The vast majority of the love-shy men interviewed for
this book confessed that if they ever did become fathers they would
want to have girl children only--NO BOYS. In stark contrast, only one
percent of the self-confident, non-shy men felt that way. In fact, the
non-shy men preferred the idea of fathering male children to the idea
of fathering female children by a ratio of almost three to two.

So what is your answer? This thread isn't seriously expecting anybody to say yes(by fear of jeapordizing their manliness), so i'm not going to include a poll. Also because people will just lie for the poll as a joke to themselves.

 

[Sparda]

NO i'm a Man, not some girl traped in a mans body, i don't like girly stuff.

 

[Raziaar]

NO i'm a Man, not some girl traped in a mans body, i don't like girly stuff.

The article stated that a male lesbian is not the feeling of being a woman trapped inside a mans body.

I think that it's trying to portray, is that you're against the norm of what is is to be a manly man, yet you're still a man.

 

[wildchild730]

Ok ok.. I'll admit it...

I am a male lesbian

 

[Danimal]

No, I am not a male lesbian. I enjoy male recreational activites, and would want a son.

 

[DeusExMachina]

To be honest, I probably am a male lesbian n_n.

Well, besides liking Rugby and all. That's pretty manly.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Oh yeah, that definition is for me definitely. I'd look at me nekkid in the mirror all day and then have hot sechs with random female sluts

 

[Remus]

Personally I think I come close, for instance I absolutely hate sports of all kinds. Other aspects of the male lesbian definition are way out there, I don't envy women and I never in my life wanted to be born a girl. As for the so called social stereotypes of what a man is supposed to like and do, well I don't give a **** what people think.

 

[PvtRyan]

Uhh.. this is like asking a guy "would you like to have been born a woman so you could touch yourself all day long?" ... hello Captain Obvious!

 

[Sparda]

The article stated that a male lesbian is not the feeling of being a woman trapped inside a mans body.

I think that it's trying to portray, is that you're against the norm of what is is to be a manly man, yet you're still a man.

Reading it over agane, i would have to say NO.

 

[el Chi]

Male lesbians differ from both transsexuals and homosexuals in that
they cannot conceive of themselves making love to a man.

Hmmm... I can conceive of myself making love to a man, but I don't see myself enjoying it. On the other hand, I reckon lesbian sex could be a lot of fun and surely I'm not the only straight guy here who's though that? I can be very iffeminate and often relate better to girls than guys, but would I like to be a girl? Not even a little bit.
All in all, I don't reckon this does make me a male lesbian. Interesting concept, though.

 

[kupocake]

Specifically, a "male lesbian" is a heterosexual man who wishes
that he had been born a woman, but who (even if he had been a woman)
could only make love to another woman and never to a man. Unlike
the transsexual, the "male lesbian" does not feel himself to be "a woman
trapped inside the body of a man". Moreover, none of the love-shy men
studied for this research entertained any wishes or fantasies of any kind
pertinent to the idea of obtaining a sex change operation. All wanted to
keep their male genitalia; all wanted to remain as males. However, all
deeply envied the perogatives of the female gender and truly believed
that these perogatives fitted their own inborn temperaments far more
harmoniously than the pattern of behavioral expectations to which males
are required to adhere.

So surely a "male lesbian" is to a degree simply what most would term a She-Male? (NOT a transexual. They are males who keep their genitals but want some aspects of female physical or mental appearance). I doubt many here would seriously describe themselves with those terms

For example, after sex change surgery the male transsexual almost always wants to begin making love to a man AS A WOMAN.

I'm pretty sure that's an outmoded concept. Gender identification has little to nothing to do with sexual orientation. That strictly assumes that male = male heterosexual and female = female heterosexual. A Gay man can be the most macho bastard in the world and still prefer the company of men, and a lesbian woman can out-girl any other woman. If this wasn't true, every homosexual on the planet would desire sex-change surgery. Those are pretty dangerous stereotypes in my opinion.

 

[Remus]

So surely a "male lesbian" is to a degree simply what most would term a She-Male? (NOT a transexual. They are males who keep their genitals but want some aspects of female physical or mental appearance). I doubt many here would seriously describe themselves with those terms

Man that is just sick. Beahhh.....:x

 

[Flyingdebris]

I don't envy women. With all their periods, mood swings, cramps, and child births...they can keep it.

I'm very much happy with my penis which is so much simpler

 

[Qonfused]

Well, it's all in the head.

If you're a "male-lesbian," you only want to make love to a woman. Which would make you heterosexual.

 

[Raziaar]

So surely a "male lesbian" is to a degree simply what most would term a She-Male? (NOT a transexual. They are males who keep their genitals but want some aspects of female physical or mental appearance). I doubt many here would seriously describe themselves with those terms

Incorrect. What it means is... now that they're already men... they don't want to be a woman any longer. It's not an active dream, but they wish they would have been a full woman to begin with.

It's got nothing to do with being a she-male or anything like that.

 

[kupocake]

Incorrect. What it means is... now that they're already men... they don't want to be a woman any longer. It's not an active dream, but they wish they would have been a full woman to begin with..

I'm saying that it's simply a lesser degree of the same thing. Shemales and "male lesbians" want to remain Male on a set number of points, but identify as females on others. The implication of the original article is that if some magical transformations happened to these men, they'd be comfortable as women on some aspects but not others. Just like shemales.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm saying that it's simply a lesser degree of the same thing. Shemales and "male lesbians" want to remain Male on a set number of points, but identify as females on others. The implication of the original article is that if some magical transformations happened to these men, they'd be comfortable as women on some aspects but not others. Just like shemales.

Nah, dude... The men have grown to love their extra appendage, and that's why they want to keep it. They don't want to be a woman with a 'penis', they want to be a woman with the womanly parts, but they know they can't, only wish they had been. They don't want anything about themselves changed, since it never happened upon birth.

 

[Kamikazie]

I'm completely male.

I'm leaving this thread now...

 

[kirovman]

I believe the term is metrosexual.

 

[JNightshade]

Not really. And I'd say that I'm not. I mean, I'm emotional, and somewhat sensitive, but I've never felt any real connection with women. Yay for having a penis

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

According to that article, I am not a male lesbian but I always thought I was. :S

Kirov - Metrosexuals I think are different in the way they are not afraid to present themselves as somewhat feminine, and I also do not believe a metrosexual would limit themselves to only feminine activites.

Two distinct terms, not quite related.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I'm a male heterosexual. I like things that I guess are stereotypically manly and see myself as worse off/unhappier if I were born female.

 

[Raziaar]

I like manly things too. Though... not all of them. Though this doesn't stem from lack of manliness, it stems from lack of interest. I don't like football or baseball, for instance. I love paintball and airsoft though. Nothing like shooting each other with guns and still being alive.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I'm fairly fashion-conscious etc.. but I'm not unmaly in any way whatsoever.

 

[Dan]

So basically it's a guy that's a pansy? Or a sissy if you prefer.

 

[CrazyHarij]

a male lesbian is a guy who loves lesbian porn. no more, no less.

 

[Codcommando]

The article stated that a male lesbian is not the feeling of being a woman trapped inside a mans body.

I think that it's trying to portray, is that you're against the norm of what is is to be a manly man, yet you're still a man.

So basically a male lesbian is a metro sexual? Well Im a manly man, I kill dinosaurs with my bare hands.

 

[Raziaar]

I wonder if it can even go as far as be a guy who's a pretty manly guy... likes manly things, isn't really all that effeminate, but wishes he was born a woman, and would be a lesbian then. Hrm. But has no interest in changing anything now that he's already a man.

 

[Vegeta897]

lol, Raziaar, you seem to be having a hard time getting the people to understand what exactly a male lesbian is >_>

But the end of the article states that a male lesbian does NOT want to do manly things. So. I guess it's kind of confusing...

 

[Raziaar]

lol, Raziaar, you seem to be having a hard time getting the people to understand what exactly a male lesbian is >_>

But the end of the article states that a male lesbian does NOT want to do manly things. So. I guess it's kind of confusing...

Yeah... it is confusing. Maybe there's a different term for it. I don't want to be a woman now, I do like manly things... i'm not into female things really... however, I can appreciate beauty and I do have a sensitive side... I do wish I was born a female a long time ago so I could have that hot lesbian love, but i'm happy to be a guy now.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I don't quite see the fun in lesbian sex from my point of view.. penetration is most of the fun. I can see why it's enjoyed.. I can enjoy watching it etc, e.g. 3somes etc.. but you know, I don't get this whole 'male lesbian' thing.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

I don't quite see the fun in lesbian sex from my point of view.. penetration is most of the fun. I can see why it's enjoyed.. I can enjoy watching it etc, e.g. 3somes etc.. but you know, I don't get this whole 'male lesbian' thing.

Here is my theory.

It should be obvious to everyone the female is pretty much regarded as an object.
She is to be ogled and played with because she is beautiful and fun.
You want this fun.
I want this fun.
Everyone wants this fun, and we want it all the time.
This is what we are taught watching TV, movies, reading, secretly thinking over and over.
Logic tells us we can have it, so we try to get it. Most of us do. Some of us are handicapped in such a way it is difficult to procur this object of fascination, of our dreams. This object is so deep and intertwined into our dreams, dreaming no longer is sufficient. Those of us that can only dream begin to take steps to making it reality. Some of these steps are desperate, which result in rape and violent crime. Some are reserved, and remain behind bedroom doors. Some are drastic, and as a last resort change themselves as the end-all answer to obtaining that thing that cannot be handed over. (lol)
It all depends on the personality of the man. The male lesbian is not violent. Does not want to change sex/gender, doesn't care for empty self-pleasure (but may engage in it for obvious reasons).
The male lesbian, being male and the body of logic knows if by fate he were born a she this mental handicap, this awkwardness could be relieved because being that object requires no work. It's an easy way to live for such an admired thing.
bruised, but not broken, the male lesbian lives his life quietly, enduring societies social pressure to present himself as standard fare, cleancut, bean-eating, mud-crawling, ass-kicking sterotype that is a modern man.

Now put your books away, pop quiz in 5!

 

[Sulkdodds]

Males have to make the first move?

That's news to me! D:

 

[Raziaar]

Males have to make the first move?

That's news to me! D:

That's pretty much how it is here

Only the amazingly bold women here make the first move, and only if the guy is at the VERY top of their desired list. AKA the people they'd stalk.

 

[Sulkdodds]

It depends what you mean by 'first move'. If 'do you wanna go out some time' is it then probably guys make the first move more often. If, however, you mean 'look at me, I'm making it dead obvious I like you' then it's a lot more even.

 

[Raziaar]

It depends what you mean by 'first move'. If 'do you wanna go out some time' is it then probably guys make the first move more often. If, however, you mean 'look at me, I'm making it dead obvious I like you' then it's a lot more even.

I mean the whole approach... the girls may flirt all they want, but they never walk over there and say, "Hey good looking, wanna go out?" Or some other stupid, embarassing line that we guys have to do.

 

[Sulkdodds]

How odd.

/me shrugs

Crazy 'mericans!

 

[Raziaar]

How odd.

/me shrugs

Crazy 'mericans!

I agree... women just do not go up to guys here, generally, and ask them out. Not even with the 'hot guys' that the women might find irresistable. They wait around and grumble to themselves if the guys didn't approach them.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I mean the whole approach... the girls may flirt all they want, but they never walk over there and say, "Hey good looking, wanna go out?" Or some other stupid, embarassing line that we guys have to do.

Pff. I get slightly wrong-footed if a girl approaches me.. I find it much easier to approach personally.. although I prefer to have some kind of interest shown my way, but that's not a requirement