At which age should a person be allowed to obtain a driver's licence?

[repiV]

Thats what happens in the states.
In Wisconsin you take a 6 month course on how to drive. Pass the course and a Temps test you get your "Temps", where you can drive with a parent. Then you take 6 1 hour long driving lessons where the driver instructer teachs you how to drive, you go though all traffic menuvers, parking cars on hills with/without curbs.
You're also required to get a total of 30 hours driving with your parent before you can take your drivers license test. Usually 20 hours day, 10 hours night driving.

Then you can finally take your test. Around here it's taken quite seriously. Then again, it's Wisconsin! You start driving at 16, and you've probably starting to drink at 12 - 14.

That sounds pretty good actually. Isn't getting a driving license piss easy in most of the USA though? Like, drive round some cones in a car park easy?

 

[repiV]

Meh, some people just shouldn't. My friend doesn't even look when changing lanes on the freeway... Oh, yeah, and after a concert we got into a car accident because he though we were at a four-way stop, but we weren't. A split-second difference and I would have died. I really hate driving with him.

In fact, being in a band with him is sort of frustrating, too. He never really learns anything new...

That kind of shit just really makes me angry.
If he did his suicidal lane changing next to me, I'd be dead. I imagine you don't get that much traffic on your freeways considering that he hasn't been hospitalised by his stupidity yet? Some of our motorways can grind literally to a complete halt at peak time...he'd be an organ donor if he tried that over here.
What also pisses me off is how someone can use dangerous driving habits almost indefinitely without fear of recourse until they actually cause an accident, yet if the police find me, er, "testing the capabilities" of my bike when it is clearly safe to do so, I'll be demonised, fined and banned.
I see people fail to look what the **** is going on, drive several inches off the car in front (even on motorways) and just generally not pay attention to anything. A massive danger to everyone around them, especially bikes. Sadly I don't foresee any justice for them.

Btw, personal experience tells me that the worst drivers are middle-aged mothers in SUVs. If I see one waiting at the front of a junction I'm crossing, I use the horn and give them an evil stare just to make sure they don't try and kill me. They usually do otherwise.
Your usual "chavs in cars" are dangerous too, but they're also obviously dangerous. In real terms, they present less of a danger to me.

 

[repiV]

Here you have to get 70% on a test, drive for 9 months with a parent (6 months if you take a 3 week drivers ed course (3 days per week), then you take another test for your regular license.

Funny thing is I'm going for my motorcycle license soon (I just turned 16 and thats the legal age for motorcycles) and I have to pay $85 CDN for a test, get 80% (multiple choice), then right away I get my full license! (You get your license within the same day)

The fook? You can get a full motorcycle license just by taking a multiple choice test?
That's completely insane. Riding a bike is a far more demanding skill than driving a car, and if you **** up, the consequences are far worse.
The motorcycle test is harder than the driving test here, and they actually teach defensive riding (planning for other people's stupidity, keeping track of everything that's going on etc.) and some rudimentary advanced riding skills, the kind of stuff that should also be in driving courses. Even then, frankly it's not good enough.
There are so many different eventualities they just don't prepare you for. I'm going to do a BikeSafe course with the police riders asap (basically, they watch you ride and make recommendations on your riding) because I feel that, commuting through London every day, it's only a matter of time before I end up in hospital unless I stop nearly being hit by idiots.

 

[The Monkey]

60 year olds dipshits are far more dangerous drivers than 16 year olds. At least the 16 year olds are on fewer meds.

Actually, the average 60 year olds are far better driver than the average 16 year old (or 18 year olf for that matter). It isn't until you reach your 80s that you become a more dangerous driver than you were when you were young.

 

[Cormeh]

I don't see a problem with 17. That's how it is in the UK and I think it's fine. Insurance is a pain until you've got a few years or you're over 25 though.

Instead of using arbitrary numbers as a measure of safe driving, wouldn't it be a far more sensible idea to actually teach people to drive instead of how to pass a test?
Lane discipline in this country is shockingly bad. I particularly hate the idiots who sit in the outside lane of the motorway at exactly 70mph, as if it's their personal mission to stop anyone exceeding the speed limit by even 1mph. If you aren't overtaking, get the **** out of the way.
It's no wonder really when lane discipline isn't really taught very much and the myth prevails that the outside lane is the "fast lane". And when aggressive, OTT speed enforcement ensures that the traffic is moving at identical speeds in all the lanes anyway.

The old saying is "You never start learning until you've passed your test".
As for lanes, a lot of driving instructors won't let even the more experienced pupils enter the right hand lane. And the motorway is illegal for a learner driver.

 

[The Monkey]

Yeah, it is very easy to get a driver's licence in the US. My sister needed a total of three hours driving in the car before she got the licence in the US, compared with several hundreds in Sweden.

 

[Sparta]

In Australia we have a learners license at 16 (L-Plates) where you are not allowed to drive without someone with a permenant license in the car next to you.

Followed by a probationary license at 18 (P-Plates). As of....a few weeks ago , the P-plate rules changed. Now you are only allowed to drive certain cars without as much horse power, and you're only allowed one passenger at a time.

 

[repiV]

I don't see a problem with 17. That's how it is in the UK and I think it's fine. Insurance is a pain until you've got a few years or you're over 25 though.

I don't understand why car insurance is so extortionate. I've never actually looked for a quote as I have no intention of getting a car (or learning to drive for that matter), but as I understand it, I would pay more in insurance for a 1.2 litre chav piece of shit than I do for my 600cc supersports bike that outperforms virtually every car on the road (?451 TPFT, 21 years old, passed my test in May, no insurance history).

The old saying is "You never start learning until you've passed your test".

Yup. The problem is there isn't really a culture of continuous learning when it comes to driving. It just ends up being the sum of experiences - no effort is really made to combat bad driver attitudes or habits. And this "speed kills" bullshit has done irrevocable damage to road safety in this country. The message, essentially, is that you can drive as badly as you want - just stay under the speed limit, don't use a mobile phone or drink alcohol and you're responsible and safe. What kind of message does it send out when you can drive 4 inches off the guy in front's bumper on a motorway with impunity but if you get caught by a scamera doing 34mph in a 30 zone twice as a new driver you get your license revoked? It's an utter travesty.
I think we should have stepped driving licenses - pass advanced tests and get advanced licenses which allow access to more powerful vehicles and cheaper insurance. Motorcycle licenses have that in a very rudimentary form.
People tend to complain about "reckless bikers" hooning around at insane and apparently dangerous speed, and while in some cases that may be true, the reality is that, scooter riders aside, people on two wheels are generally enthusiasts and they spend countless hours practicing, learning and improving their skills and sometimes taking courses. They might be blasting around country lanes at 100mph, but they're still safer than the vast majority of drivers out there. 20% of all candidates for the RoSPA/IAM advanced courses are bikers, as opposed to 1% of the general population who hold a motorcycle license (inevitably much less than 1% will actually ride regularly).

As for lanes, a lot of driving instructors won't let even the more experienced pupils enter the right hand lane.
And the motorway is illegal for a learner driver.

I think it's crazy that you can get a license without being taught anything about driving on the motorway. Changing lanes without checking, tailgating, abysmal lane discipline...all a regular occurence. I often have to pass between the middle of lanes 2 and 3 because some twat is blocking the outside lane and holding up the traffic - who inevitably beeps his horn at me in an idiotic rage because I had the nerve to pass him.
Besides, from a practical point of view, all motorways are is dual carriageways built to a very high standard - grade-separated junctions, hard shoulders, crash barriers etc. Legally they are not public roads, but restricted access and that, along with 70mph limits and meeting certain other criteria is what makes them motorways. There are plenty of dual carriageways out there that are motorways in all but name - parts of the A406 North Circular and the A40 Westway in London spring to mind. Perfect for practicing on.

 

[repiV]

Yeah, it is very easy to get a driver's licence in the US. My sister needed a total of three hours driving in the car before she got the licence in the US, compared with several hundreds in Sweden.

We don't have any kind of hours requirement here...it's just a case of passing the test.
It is a pretty difficult test - as far as I know, we have the hardest driving tests in the world. Until the introduction of speed cameras and the obsession with speed limits, we also had the safest roads in the world.
Still, I got the feeling that it was really just a case of jumping through hoops to get your license. Part of the motorcycle test is the U-turn - essentially turn around in the road and pull up at the opposite kerb facing the other direction. You'll fail your whole test if you do any of the following - don't take a clear, good look behind you (even if you're in front of a dead end), take too long to actually go after you've checked it's clear, put your foot down while performing the turn, or stop in someone's driveway.
In reality, you never have to do a U-turn if you don't want to. And you certainly don't need to do it without putting your foot down - why is it of such importance in the test? It's the single biggest cause of test failure, followed by leaving an indicator on.

 

[The Monkey]

^ We don't have hours requirement either, but you're unlikely to pass the test if you don't have much experience.

 

[repiV]

Ah.
Well, I did CBT (basically, it's an intensive course with a minimum 2 hours road ride that validates your privisional entitlement to ride bikes with power under 14.6bhp with L-plates, no motorways or pillions).
Then I rode a 12bhp hire bike for two weeks, I suppose about 1000 miles or so. Then I did a four-day intensive course - two days on the small bikes, improving technique and riding like they want you to ride on the test etc, and two days on 500cc bikes including my test on the second afternoon.
So I suppose I had over 100 hours experience, but only a day and a half on a proper bike. I suppose it's quite an odd setup, 125s are puny little things and you can get yourself into trouble very quickly on a 500 if you're not careful (let the clutch out too quickly and you'll be in someone's living room watching TV with them, as my instructor used to say).

 

[Dog--]

The fook? You can get a full motorcycle license just by taking a multiple choice test?

I'm not sure if it's a multiple choice or not, though.

Edit: I f***ed up, you need to take a knowledge and vision test for your M1 (no night riding or highways), then wait 60 days for your M2 (full motorcycle license).

 

[repiV]

I'm not sure if it's a multiple choice or not, though.

Edit: I f***ed up, you need to take a knowledge and vision test for your M1 (no night riding or highways), then wait 60 days for your M2 (full motorcycle license).

So there is no practical riding assessment of any kind?

 

[Dan]

If you grow up on a farm you need to be able to drive

 

[Kamikazie]

I think if you're able to pass the test then you're ready for the road. But that excludes the people that just learn what's on the test itself, as some people just practice all that stuff and forgo actually learning to drive properly.

 

[xcellerate]

I think if you're able to pass the test then you're ready for the road. But that excludes the people that just learn what's on the test itself, as some people just practice all that stuff and forgo actually learning to drive properly.

The test is garbage. There's no way you can regulate smart drivers from dumb ones without watching them on the road for a week or more.

There's too many people who do seriously stupid shit, like stop at the end of a merge lane and wait for traffic to open up because they tried to merge at 20mph because they were too scared to go faster.

Too many stupid idiots who speed up to get in front of me and then slow down to a speed slower than I was going when they were behind me.

Watching those winter videos of cars sliding on the ice, I love to watch the people who slam on their brakes trying to stop (even though they're sliding), and then with the brake pedal being fully pressed with both feet they turn the wheel as if the car is going to turn.

People who ride in the passing lane going the same speed as the car next to them and don't even realize it.

There's too many examples, but the simple fact is that when most people turn their car on they turn their brains off. Nobody even pretends to think about efficiency or that they even think about caring about anybody else on the road.

I guarantee you that if you speed up behind somebody on a 1 lane road, with your hazards on, flashing your high beams, and honking your horn they would NOT move over. Because they don't even think of the possibility that maybe your wife called and said somebody just broke in the house, or maybe you have the only car and your daughter just fell down the stairs or ANYTHING.

They just think because they're in their little safety bubble of anonymity that they can do whatever they want and can't be bothered by other people's problems, that you should have to wait for them to do what they are doing and at the speed they are doing it and since they don't feel like pulling over to let you aside then they won't.

I ****ing hate other drivers.

The other REAL problem is that everybody thinks they are a good driver (yes I realize the irony of me saying that and talking like I'm a good driver amidst a sea of bad drivers). I know plenty of bad drivers who complain about the same stuff I'm complaining about but then do the things they complain about on the road.

Most people are observant but not aware, they see things that directly effect them, but then are unable to see how they affect other people. Which is the main problem; and it lies partially in the fact that people don't take responsibility for their actions while in their car because they feel safe and anonymous.

And you tell people this and then of course everybody agrees with you, "yea man, I always look behind me to make sure that I'm not doing that." Or "yea I always merge into traffic at proper speeds" or whatever, but the fact is that if everybody who told me they do these things actually did it, then life would be a lot better on the highway.

If you read all that +2 for you.

 

[Dog--]

So there is no practical riding assessment of any kind?

No, although it'll probably get you some kind of benefit, maybe you get your M2 right away, I'm not sure. Google "Motorcycle license Ontario" (Ontario is the province where I live).

 

[Exploder]

18 because the thought of a dead 16 year old drives me nuts. I'm pretty sure there are good 16 year old drivers and bad 18 year old drivers, but you need to think about the masses. People tend to be more mature at the age of 18, and by the time they reach that age, they should have a slight idea on how to behave as a driver.

 

[huntingbear]

the problem is...no matter what age you are, when you're just beginning driving you're as much of a n00b as you would be at any other age. However, with age comes common sense stuff so it's a hard argument.

 

[repiV]

The test is garbage. There's no way you can regulate smart drivers from dumb ones without watching them on the road for a week or more.

There's too many people who do seriously stupid shit, like stop at the end of a merge lane and wait for traffic to open up because they tried to merge at 20mph because they were too scared to go faster.

Too many stupid idiots who speed up to get in front of me and then slow down to a speed slower than I was going when they were behind me.

Watching those winter videos of cars sliding on the ice, I love to watch the people who slam on their brakes trying to stop (even though they're sliding), and then with the brake pedal being fully pressed with both feet they turn the wheel as if the car is going to turn.

People who ride in the passing lane going the same speed as the car next to them and don't even realize it.

There's too many examples, but the simple fact is that when most people turn their car on they turn their brains off. Nobody even pretends to think about efficiency or that they even think about caring about anybody else on the road.

I guarantee you that if you speed up behind somebody on a 1 lane road, with your hazards on, flashing your high beams, and honking your horn they would NOT move over. Because they don't even think of the possibility that maybe your wife called and said somebody just broke in the house, or maybe you have the only car and your daughter just fell down the stairs or ANYTHING.

They just think because they're in their little safety bubble of anonymity that they can do whatever they want and can't be bothered by other people's problems, that you should have to wait for them to do what they are doing and at the speed they are doing it and since they don't feel like pulling over to let you aside then they won't.

I ****ing hate other drivers.

The other REAL problem is that everybody thinks they are a good driver (yes I realize the irony of me saying that and talking like I'm a good driver amidst a sea of bad drivers). I know plenty of bad drivers who complain about the same stuff I'm complaining about but then do the things they complain about on the road.

Most people are observant but not aware, they see things that directly effect them, but then are unable to see how they affect other people. Which is the main problem; and it lies partially in the fact that people don't take responsibility for their actions while in their car because they feel safe and anonymous.

And you tell people this and then of course everybody agrees with you, "yea man, I always look behind me to make sure that I'm not doing that." Or "yea I always merge into traffic at proper speeds" or whatever, but the fact is that if everybody who told me they do these things actually did it, then life would be a lot better on the highway.

If you read all that +2 for you.

I agree completely with what you've said, and yes I did read it all.
In my opinion, one of the biggest problems is safety features in cars. "Safe" Volvos and SUVs etc might be safe for the occupants, but they're deadly to other road users. Firstly, because the drivers don't pay any attention because they're so well protected, and secondly because they are physically much more dangerous to collide with.
I also think that, barring disabilities that would make it impossible, people should have to learn to ride a motorcycle - not necessarily to test standard, but to understand what bikers have to constantly be alert for, and also just as training for traffic awareness and such.
I've heard so many people who say they've been driving 20 years or so but then they ride for 6 months and they learnt as much about road safety in their six months on two wheels as they did in their entire driving career.
There's also the issue that car drivers generally don't comprehend how other vehicles differ from them - they expect everything to behave like a car.

I also find it problematic that traffic enforcement is very biased and incorrect. As I said before, you can get away with tailgating, driving without due care and attention, not indicating and all sorts of other highly dangerous maneuvers almost indefinitely.
I ride quickly but safely, but if I was caught riding in the manner that I do by the police (not while commuting, mind), I'd probably be banned.
Like yesterday, I met a guy at the bike shop and we went for a ride - I've never had so much fun in my life. Filtered to the front of the queue on a three-lane dual carriageway, lights went green, off we went, saw the whole way round the bend was clear of any traffic, took the corner at over 120mph using all three lanes to make the turn. I was laughing for five minutes straight.
Very quick, very scary-looking - but not dangerous. And certainly no danger to any other road users.
I've noticed a big difference in the standard of my riding since I observed his riding actually...I got to work and back today smoother, faster and safer than ever before. It's entirely possible to be fast and safe, as long as you can make the distinction between fun and dangerous.