Ati's R520.

[Cole]

I was just wondering when are these going to be released(as I can buy them from a store\newegg).

At Sep 2, I will get my next paycheck and have $600 some for a graphics card so im simply waiting on them.

 

[bryanf445]

your just going to ahve to wait, its hard too tell could be end of september maybe longer

 

[gweedodogg69]

probably Sept. 30th which was supposed to be HL2's original release date.

 

[Asus]

probably Sept. 30th which was supposed to be HL2's original release date.

Ha funny. =p

They say late Sept/ early Oct for release date on the R520 but I would think it will take a couple weeks before ATI or other brands that make ATI cards have them in stores. Online stores such as newegg or zipzoomfly would probably be on of the first to have them in. Best Buy/Compusa will probably be a after that.

 

[hungryduck]

Don't bother with the r520. ATI themselves spoke at a recent investor meeting that the new generation of their cards (r520) are not faster than the 7800gtx, or the 7800ultra when it comes. They're stating that their next gen cards (long ways off) will be better.
They're also reporting a nutload of lossess this quarter, as they've lost nearly the entire OEM market to nvidia.

 

[sinkoman]

Don't bother with the r520. ATI themselves spoke at a recent investor meeting that the new generation of their cards (r520) are not faster than the 7800gtx, or the 7800ultra when it comes. They're stating that their next gen cards (long ways off) will be better.
They're also reporting a nutload of lossess this quarter, as they've lost nearly the entire OEM market to nvidia.

I agree.

Go and spend your money on a 6800gt. The 7800gtx's or R520's aren't next gen cards, they're merely extremely high end enthusiast minded cards.

If you really have the money to, i'd go get a 7800gtx instead.

 

[duffers20]

I'm just gonna wait, see what they are like for price and performance compared with teh geforce 7 series and then make a decision on what to do for my next upgrade. My 9800pro is beginning to show its age

 

[Cole]

Im gonna buy a Geforce 7800GTX.
Factory Overclocked, a $10 BF2,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150104

 

[Asus]

Don't bother with the r520. ATI themselves spoke at a recent investor meeting that the new generation of their cards (r520) are not faster than the 7800gtx, or the 7800ultra when it comes.

Have a link? I know they are releasing low and mid range cards. And I know there will be a R520 XL (Sept) and then also XT (Oct).

 

[chu]

Don't bother with the r520. ATI themselves spoke at a recent investor meeting that the new generation of their cards (r520) are not faster than the 7800gtx, or the 7800ultra when it comes. They're stating that their next gen cards (long ways off) will be better.
They're also reporting a nutload of lossess this quarter, as they've lost nearly the entire OEM market to nvidia.

yes, please give link to this or I take it as bullshit...

 

[cadaveca]

No link needed...just search any hardware site and it's there. also of note is this:

Specifically, the complaint alleges that during the Class Period, defendants made false and misleading statements regarding the Company's business and prospects. As a result of defendants' false and misleading statements, ATI's stock traded at inflated levels, allowing the Company's top officers and directors to sell or otherwise dispose of more than $54 million worth of their own shares at artificially inflated prices.

Source:

http://securities.stanford.edu/1035/ATYT05_01/

or here's some more:

ATI Technologies on Monday reduced its revenue guidance for the fourth quarter of fiscal 2005 to a range much lower compared to the same period last year. In addition, numerous shareholders have filed class action suits against the graphics giant accusing the firm of misrepresenting its positions.

“This has clearly been a challenging and disappointing quarter for ATI and we are committed to resolving our operational issues. Despite our short term difficulties, we are optimistic about the future. We continue to gain traction in our integrated and consumer businesses,” said David Orton, President and Chief Executive Officer of ATI Technologies.

ATI now expects revenues for the fourth quarter to be in the range of $465 - $480 million, compared to the expected range of $550 - $580 million provided on June 23, 2005. Gross margin percentage for the quarter is expected to be in the single digit range, which includes an inventory writedown that is expected to be approximately $60 - $70 million. Operating expenses, excluding the costs associated with stock-based compensation, are expected to be in the range of $143 - $148 million, which is in line with guidance.

ATI reported revenues of $572.2 million for the fourth quarter of fiscal 2004 (ended August 31, 2004), a 50.3% increase over the fourth quarter a year earlier.

Numerous law firms on behalf of ATI’s shareholders have filed at least seven class action suits against the company. The accusations, claim that that ATI substantially relied on its high-end offerings to fund other parts of its business; that the company’s high-end offerings failed to offset the negative impact of weak gross-margins and declining average sales prices in consumer electronics; that the company, due to production and design issues, was late to the market with its R520 chip, thereby losing market share to both NVIDIA Corp. and Intel Corp. which caused downward pricing pressure for ATI; that ATI’s inventory levels were at a historic high, while current sales levels were insufficient to support the existing cost base; and that the defendants’ positive statements about the company’s progress and future growth lacked in all reasonable basis.

-Anton Shilov, X-bit Labs.

Source:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050830084924.html

 

[Asus]

I'm not sure about chu, but I wasn't asking about their stock or company handlings but the performance of the R520 which was refered to but not sourced. I know about their quarter losses etc.

 

[cadaveca]

ah, ok.
Here ya go:

Interview with Dave Orton

(excerpt)
Sampsa: Can you tell us a little about the problems which you encountered when you moved to 90nm production technology?

Dave: "Xbox 360-game console’s Xenon-graphics chipset was developed on 90 nm with tremendous success, so we felt confident using it for the R5xx family. RV515, which will be aimed at the entry-level PC segment, also worked perfectly from the outset without encountering any manufacturing issues. But to be honest, we’ve had our share of challenges with the R520 and RV530 chips. Even though all the simulations that were done with the chips were looking good, there were still issues with the silicon when it came back from the fab. It was also surprising that RV515 and RV530 were designed by the same team and manufactured in the same fab using same technology, but RV515 worked perfectly and RV530 caused us problems".

According to Dave, R520 chips taped-out in November 2004 and original plan was to announce it seven to eight months later during the June-July period. Adopting smaller manufacturing technology delayed the schedule by a couple of months, but because of other challenges the engineers faced, the chips were delayed by an additional 2-3 months.

http://www.soneraplaza.fi/tietokoneet/artikkeli/0,2998,h-9112_a-303085,00.html

There's more in that link about performance alluded to more:

(excerpt)
Sampsa: Did you have to remove any planned features from R520 in order to reach the version of R520 which you’re about to bring to the market?

Dave: "No we didn’t. The graphics chip runs extremely fast, and although we’re still finalizing clocks, I can tell you that we’re hitting stock engine speeds never seen before in this industry. The chip had to be produced with 90nm technology, because 110 nm would have made it way too large, and it’s still not a small chip."

According to Dave, the memory controller of the graphics chip has gone through a complete redesign, and ATI will be providing more details when they launch their new product family this fall.

but just a day before this was posted @ rage3d:

Update with ATI's CEO

Event: On Aug.17, we hosted investor meetings with Dave Orton, ATI’s President and CEO.

Impact: Neutral.

The meetings focused on four key points: 1) Late September Launch Date Set for Three R500 Desktop Discrete Chips (R520, RV530, and RV515); 2) Strong Integrated Graphics Chipsets Growth, But Gross Margins (Desktop and Mobile Combined) to Remain in the Low-Teens Range in Q4 (Aug); 3) Inventory Level to Remain Above Target in Q4 and Writedown Risk Remains in Our View; and 4) Consumer Business (Wireless and Digital TV) Falls Well Short of Original Target for 2x Growth in F2005. ATI is in final stages of its F2006 financial planning process, and does not intend to make a significant headcount investment, with plans to keep operating expenses relatively flat for each of the quarters. We believe management’s tone was justifiably conservative, and we do not anticipate a one-quarter snapback in revenue growth or gross margins. We have a higher level of confidence that ATI’s R500 family will launch on time, but weak gross margins and the inventory bloat will likely continue to weigh negatively on the stock. We maintain our HOLD and $12.75/C$15.50 target price on ATI, based on 15x our C2006E EPS of $0.85.

1. Late September Launch Date Set for Three R500 Desktop Discrete Chips (R520, RV530, and RV515): Addressing the rampant rumours surrounding the R520 launch date, ATI stated its plan of record is to launch all three 90nm R500 desktop discrete chips (the enthusiast R520, the performance RV530, and the value RV515) in late September. The shipment dates will likely be staggered for the three chips, based on the delivery cycles from TSMC, with one likely shipping at launch date and the other two within the first half of October. The R520 was originally planned for a June launch, while the RV530 and RV515 launch times are only a few weeks delayed from their original schedule. The R520 had been sampling since Dec/04, and although the architecture and 90nm process were not a problem, ATI was not able to run the clock fast enough due to a “soft ground” issue that was discovered in late July after debugging with several re-spins. Specifically, the R520 and RV530 had functional yields, but could not run at high speeds, while the RV515 and the C1 (the 90nm Xbox graphics chip) did not have any issues. ATI concedes it has lost the OEM designs (primarily Dell) to NVIDIA’s GeForce 7800 GTX for enthusiast desktop PCs for both the back-to-school and holiday season, but believes the retail and channel (add-in-board) markets for the R520 chip remain available (representing over 2/3rds of the enthusiast market). Both ATI and NVIDIA did not refresh their back-to-school product stack for the performance/mainstream/value segments, with ATI indicating it has kept a significant share of design wins awarded in the March to May timeframe, based on its ATI X700, X600, X550, and X300 (competing against NVIDIA’s GeForce 6200 and 6600). In terms of performance, ATI believes the R520 should exceed the GeForce 7800 GTX in benchmark tests if it can get the proper clock speed, but recognizes that NVIDIA has some headroom to overclock the GeForce 7800 clock speeds. We do not expect ATI to launch its R580 (speculated to have 32 pixel pipelines) in C2005 (ATI does not want to stall the channel for the R520), and expect a refresh of the R500 family beginning in spring 2006 with RV560, followed by RV540 and RV505. We expect the R600 (DirectX 10, targeting Microsoft Vista operating system and WGF 2.0, the next generation graphics library) in Q4/F06 or Q1/F07.

2. Strong Integrated Graphics Chipsets Growth, But Gross Margins (Desktop and Mobile Combined) to Remain in the Low-Teens Range in Q4 (Aug): ATI is guiding for its integrated graphics chipset business (desktop and mobile) to represent 15% to 20% of revenue in Q4, up from our estimated 11% in Q3. The corresponding gross margins will remain in the 11% to 15% range in Q4, with desktop chipsets margins of approximately 7% and mobile in the mid-teens range. Top line desktop chipset growth is being driven by both the AMD and Intel platforms. ATI contends that half of all AMD processor shipments now ship with ATI’s integrated chipsets, and indicates it has been bidding successfully for design wins against NVIDIA’s upcoming integrated graphics chipset for the AMD64 (K8) desktop market, codenamed C51, for the last six months (C51 launch date is set for late Sept.). We believe Intel’s decision to leave the low-end (sub-$20) desktop chipset market for roughly the next three quarters, as it focuses its capacity on the mobile chipset and handheld/smartphone market, should translate into Intel platform-based integrated chipset growth for both ATI and SiS. ATI is targeting its desktop integrated chipset volume to reach two to three million units per quarter in the next few quarters. ATI expects its integrated chipset gross margins (desktop and mobile combined) to drive towards the 25%-plus range with its next generation chipsets in Spring 2006. Chipset gross margin improvements are expected to be driven by shrinking the die size (from 0.13u to 0.11u), improving the test yields, and reducing the package costs (50% of the chipset cost is substrate packaging). ATI will focus on the $16 to $20 chipset segment, conceding the $22 to $30 chipset segment to Intel, and ATI may move down market to the $12 to $15 chipset segment targeted by VIA and SiS. The single-digit gross margins associated with ATI’s current desktop chipsets is a result of ATI having to lower its chipset pricing from the initial $25 price target (OEM customers desired a $16 to $20 chipset with equivalent graphics performance to Intel, not a $25 chipset with 2x the graphics performance of Intel’s offering). ATI’s high-end CrossFire chipset is expected to ship in volume in early September and contribute positively to gross margins.

3. Inventory Level to Remain Above Target in Q4 and Writedown Risk Remains in Our View: ATI’s Q3 (May) inventory ballooned to $456 million, up $89 million sequentially and representing 100 days of inventory, with 2/3rds of the PC segment inventory consisting of PCI Express versus 1/3 AGP. ATI contends the AGP-based inventory is not materially at risk, given the demand for these value and mainstream parts (e.g., RADEON 9200 and RADEON 9600). Q4 inventory is expected to drop to the low-$400 million range, but still above ATI’s target of having inventory represent roughly 50% of forward revenue guidance (ATI’s inventory turnover target is 70 to 75 days, considering the current substrate shortage situation which is anticipated to last for the next six months). ATI had underestimated the channel demand for nine consecutive quarters, and decided to add two weeks of supply buffer to its inventory in Q2/Q3, increasing to 10 weeks from 8 weeks, but suffered a slowdown in demand and a slight decrease in channel market share to the mid-30% level. In addition, half of the inventory bloat was due to ATI underestimating the yields on its wafer by a factor of roughly 40% (i.e., the wafers yielded 40% more die than expected), further compounding its inventory glut (under ATI’s die buy model, ATI purchases on a per-die as opposed to per-wafer basis, implying that it has secured the price per die based on theoretical yields from the fab, and has committed to purchase the entire wafer no matter what the yield). ATI is not planning for an inventory writedown, arguing its AGP and PCI Express inventory is not obsolete, but cautions that a fast ramp of the new R500 family should put pricing pressure on the existing generation of products (we do not rule out the possibility of an inventory writedown). Justification of Target Price: ATI trades at 25x our C2005E EPS of $0.48 and 14x our C2006E EPS of $0.85, which compares to NVIDIA at 20x and 16x, and Intel trading at 18x and 16x. We believe ATI’s operational issues (desktop product launch delays and gross margin weakness) justify a relatively discounted target multiple of 15x our C2006E EPS, deriving a target price of $12.75/C$15.50. Key Risks to Target Price: Risks include valuation multiple contraction in the semiconductor industry; a slowdown in PC sales; competition from NVIDIA and Intel; inability to secure PCI Express design wins; timing of the Microsoft Xbox 360 and Nintendo Revolution game console launches, unexpected delays in shipping new products; and the outstanding OSC hearing involving ATI’s Chairman.

Action Notes August 18, 2005
Equity Research

Source:
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33826885

so make of it what you will, seeing how this is posted @ Tom's:

Top Story
ATI's R520 silicon "fantastic" - sources

By Wolfgang Gruener, Senior Editor

August 30, 2005 - 20:50 EST

Chicago (IL) - After weeks of delay, final silicon of ATI's next graphic chip generation, code-named R520, apparently mad it through the production line. According to sources, quality and performance and of the chip exceed initial expectations, allowing the company to announce serious competition for Nvidia's 7800 GTX possibly in a matter of weeks.

Nvidia may be sweeping the high-performance graphics market with its seventh generation GeForce, but ATI made significant strides in preparing its next graphics chip and likely set new records in graphic performance. Credible industry sources told Tom's Hardware Guide that the R520 may debut with clock speeds in the range of 700 MHz and a completely redesigned graphics architecture.

Compared to 7800 GTX, our sources claim that the R520 can best Nvidia's performance and image quality levels ina ny scenario. Nvidia recently came under fire to use "driver cheats" for its 7800 series to increase frame rate performance on one side but sacrifized image quality on the other. While we have to wait for the final product to reach our test lab for testing, ATI may have in fact a chip in its hands that may force Nvidia to release a new flagship for its 7800 series.

Ahead of the R520, ATI is expected to to release its Crossfire dual graphics support. Several vendors tolf Tom's Hardware Guide that motherboard designs are finalized and that the industry at this times waits for ATI to officially introduce the technology. Crossfire boards are expected to be priced about 5 to 10 percent below SLI boards.

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050830_205000.html
Anything else?

 

[Asus]

ATI themselves spoke at a recent investor meeting that the new generation of their cards (r520) are not faster than the 7800gtx, or the 7800ultra when it comes.

Nothing that explains this yet.

 

[cadaveca]

well, dave orton says the chips are problematic, but they are "finalizing clocks". Moreover, in the report posted, it says pretty much much the same, but let me pull it out for you:

Specifically, the R520 and RV530 had functional yields, but could not run at high speeds

Taken into account the news from Tom's saying 700mhz, based on what DAve ORton says, this speed seems unlikely. Now, knowing what i know myself, it seems that the fab fubared ATI, in order to keep the market in check(ATI are moving to a new fab starting Q4 this year), because my own sources say 700mhz is just not gonna happen with 32 "pipelines"(they aren't pipelines anymore, in the trditional sense, at least with ATI) until R580, which should, according to just me, debut in february or march(yes, you can quote me on that).

Anyway, what adds even more weight to the poster's argument is this statement:

ATI believes the R520 should exceed the GeForce 7800 GTX in benchmark tests if it can get the proper clock speed, but recognizes that NVIDIA has some headroom to overclock the GeForce 7800 clock speeds

This tells me that current runs of the r520 cannot meet the aforementioned 700mhz mark, and although the r520 will bench @ higher stock scores, the 7800GTX will overclock to higher results in benchmarks.

The answer to why is hidden in the interview with Dave Orton:

According to Dave, the memory controller of the graphics chip has gone through a complete redesign, and ATI will be providing more details when they launch their new product family this fall.

So, knowing other stuff i know, about the memory bus being 512bit instead of the current 256bit of the x850xt, and the 7800GTX, i know that the extra performance has been had by means of the memory interface, and not by high clock speeds. this in turn means that the chip itself, the r520, is not faster than the g70, but the gpu's onboard memory IS. And becasue it's the memory that's faster, and not the GPU, The 32 pipe version stands to be stomped out, not because of it's own limitations, but becasue current cpu's are not fast enough for the r520 to take advantage of that faster memory interface. This is why there is much focus from ATI toward the new sockets from AMD, which stand to offer the cpu performance that the r580 will need to excel as it should.


What's more important is that comment about overclocking...stock scores for the 7800GTX, according to the box for mine, have the 7800GTX @ 7930 3dmarks in 3dmark05.(P4 3.4EE,1gb ram, WinXP, Forceware 76.91)...so the ATI card only needs to score more than that. However, my card happens to have the highest stock overclock score without modding(including the reviewers and guys on forums that recieved cards directly from nvidia), and that's @ 9048, and that report saying that the 7800 has more headroom in overclocking only tells me that the r520 will not be able to hit 9000 without modifications...and therefore slower than the 7800, like the poster stated.


"Elementary, my dear Watson, Elementary!"

:cheers:

 

[bosox188]

Cool so the R520 will have a 512bit memory bus?