Aus live cattle exports to Indonesia shitstorm

[unozero]

death penalty for drug trafficking anything but progressive.

oh and then there's this.


http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/indonesian-clerics-ban-valentines-day/421819
They went around arrest around 300 people from what I remember reading on Valentines Day.

so yeah.nuff said.

edit: you might be right about the "people" being more progressive but until they change some of those obscene laws I dunno man.

 

[Robbo]

death penalty for drug trafficking anything but progressive.

oh and then there's this.


http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/indonesian-clerics-ban-valentines-day/421819
They went around arrest around 300 people from what I remember reading on Valentines Day.

so yeah.nuff said.

edit: you might be right about the "people" being more progressive but until they change some of those obscene laws I dunno man.

So you're basing your entire opinion of a country on one law and something some cleric said... you must hate America... Australia... and just about every other country.

 

[unozero]

well considering that there is a separation of Church and State here....no I don't hate the U.S lol
And that one law says awful lot about a country. Myself I'm really torn when it comes to capital punishment. (but for drug trafficking come on!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Ulema_Council

The Ulema Council plays a pretty big role in Indonesia obviously not all people give a **** about what they say.But there still a part of the "machine" there.
Also I never said anything about hating Indonesia they're just really low on my "Countries that I admire list"

 

[Robbo]

well considering that there is a separation of Church and State here....no I don't hate the U.S lol
And that one law says awful lot about a country. Myself I'm really torn when it comes to capital punishment. (but for drug trafficking come on!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Ulema_Council

The Ulema Council plays a pretty big role in Indonesia obviously not all people give a **** about what they say.But there still a part of the "machine" there.
Also I never said anything about hating Indonesia they're just really low on my "Countries that I admire list"

You may have legal seperation of church and state but you can't tell me that religion does not have a massive influence on law making or the direction of your country. As for the death penalty for drug trafficing. The same penalty is enforced in many other countries who's inhabitants could be convinced to listen to reason so I don't see how it would affect the correct interpretation of the Islamic law about meat.
As for the Ulema council I don't see how them having influence in the country would stop them from informing people that stunned animals are compliant with Halal and therefore can be eaten.

 

[unozero]

like I said man that's wishful thinking. might as well tell Americans no more F150 pickup trucks starting tomorrow.

 

[Robbo]

like I said man that's wishful thinking. might as well tell Americans no more F150 pickup trucks starting tomorrow.

It's not the same thing....
People don't like stunning because they think it violates Halal when in reality it doesn't. Religious leaders have the authority to tell these people that what they believe is a misinterpretation.
It would be like Americans believing they HAD to buy F150 utes when in reality they don't.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Umm yes.. The problem is not with what the religion says it's that people either believe that the stunning technique kills the animal or violates halal practices. Either way religious leaders are able to fix this problem through education without violating what their beliefs.

Religious leaders are people too, and have their own interpretations of scripture (gotta wonder how the "misunderstanding" spread in the first place). Just saying, if they're vehement enough in their belief that they're willing to let animals suffer painful death so they can chow down without feeling as though they've offended their God, do you really think this is just an innocent misapprehension that can be corrected with a calm and reasoned re-examination of their holy text? Even if you could count on this, I find the entire idea of objecting to something on a scriptural basis completely absurd. Who really has the authority to claim that their interpretation of any particular holy text is the correct one? Unless, of course, you'd advocate a literal reading of the Quran, but I don't think I have to spell out the potential problems with that.

And yeah, I know I'm not providing another practical solution, but I can't bring myself to think diplomatically about issues like this when they must be framed in incoherent sentences like this:

People don't like stunning because they think it violates Halal when in reality it doesn't.

No offence, really, but god damn I laughed.

 

[Naph]

I'm thinking that the arguement that's shed by the community has shifted, or rather has always been based on the severity of the bovine deaths. Halal should be respected and the method of killing should still be carried out without intervention. However, there are many slaughterhouses in Indonesia that 'clumsily' follow these practices and cause unecessary harm to the bovine.

 

[GreatEmperor]

Err the reason for it is that the people that buy the meat WANT it killed that way. The equipment that Australia provided would stun the animals so that it could be killed according to islamic customs. I'm not saying that there are not MUCH better ways to do this but as long as people want it killed this way then our aim should be to do it as humanely as possible.



Umm yes.. The problem is not with what the religion says it's that people either believe that the stunning technique kills the animal or violates halal practices. Either way religious leaders are able to fix this problem through education without violating what their beliefs.

I just said that demand was a problem, and it stems from religion. Religion and tradition being indistinguishable as religion is just tradition wrapped up in myth to give it weight.

 

[unozero]

I just said that demand was a problem, and it stems from religion. Religion and tradition being indistinguishable as religion is just tradition wrapped up in myth to give it weight.

well said.

 

[Stylo]

Another thread successfully turned into an Atheism dick-waving contest. Hoorah!

 

[unozero]

truth hurts, doesn't it?

 

[15357]

Another thread successfully turned into an Atheism dick-waving contest. Hoorah!

I suppose that's because religion must be the root of the vast majority of problems in the world.

Let us undertake a grand crusade against the non-atheist infidels that corrupt the people of the world with their unreasonable beliefs.

 

[Stylo]

I suppose that's because religion must be the root of the vast majority of problems in the world.

Let us undertake a grand crusade against the non-atheist infidels that corrupt the people of the world with their unreasonable beliefs.

Nah, that's more effort than just sitting around waiting for a religious person to turn up so that I can argue the shit out of them and feel superior as they give answers to my scrupulous questions that don't match my own views on reality, as I don't believe in anything outside of the tiny scale of knowledge mankind holds compared to the grander scale of the Universe and neither should anybody else, lest they be labelled ignorant and stupid and I shall march off with my head held high, feeling a lot better about myself.

 

[GreatEmperor]

Nah, that's more effort than just sitting around waiting for a religious person to turn up so that I can argue the shit out of them and feel superior as they give answers to my scrupulous questions that don't match my own views on reality, as I don't believe in anything outside of the tiny scale of knowledge mankind holds compared to the grander scale of the Universe and neither should anybody else, lest they be labelled ignorant and stupid and I shall march off with my head held high, feeling a lot better about myself.

Only problem being all religion was manufactured by man, very VERY primitive man. Making it more narrow and myopic then even our limited grasp of science

 

[Robbo]

Ok I'm going to try to summarise my point here. Yes religion is involved. When I say the demand does not come from religion I mean that the official position of their organisation is that animals can be killed humanely and still follow whatever rules that have imposed. When I say that you could probably educate most people about how the animals need to be killed I'm assuming that what people know of these rules has been handed down orly and been changed over time.

But yes..... religion is still a problem in the end.....

 

[Bad^Hat]

Another thread successfully turned into an Atheism dick-waving contest. Hoorah!

Oh good, it's this again! Hey, do me a favour and go do a page search in this thread for "atheism." Go on, I'll wait.

Yeah, thanks for that.

Is there any particular reason this pointless accusation has to be thrown around every time religion is brought up in relation to something like this, no matter how clearly implicated it is? What other sphere of conversation is stifled in this way in order to avoid impugning people's precious notions and ideals about the world? Yeah, these conversations can be prone to hyperbole, but so what? If you disagree with what someone's saying, then take them to task on it, but don't be throwing around blanket insults like the very idea of the conversation is elitist or something.

Nah, that's more effort than just sitting around waiting for a religious person to turn up so that I can argue the shit out of them and feel superior as they give answers to my scrupulous questions that don't match my own views on reality, as I don't believe in anything outside of the tiny scale of knowledge mankind holds compared to the grander scale of the Universe and neither should anybody else, lest they be labelled ignorant and stupid and I shall march off with my head held high, feeling a lot better about myself.

... ignoring all the many, many cases where religious beliefs actually restrict one's view of how the world is or should be.

Like this one, for instance. :v

 

[Stylo]

I was referring to how the topic went from "Religion is a factor here that spurns the problem" to "LOLOL RELIGION = MYTH".

But okay, thanks for the reaction.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Okay cool thanks for making that clear.