Ayaan Hirsi Ali

[No Limit]

It is hard to say because Christian propaganda factors in as well. Lets just say it is no race war but it isn't Never Never Land either.

I don't think anyone claimed it was never never land. But I also don't see what propogenda has to do with the stats. Unless you have examples of such attacks or of christians in that area fleeing in any significance.

Otherwise they seem perfectly happy with their situation.

At work and saw this, cant say more, but yeah, very secular Mr.Limit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10839133

Nobody said it was a beacon of democracy, simply that it was a democracy that protects religious freedom. Aren't you the one that supports Burka bans? You don't like Burkas. Obviously they don't like porn. What's the problem?

on edit:

The point she made about Christendom (sp?)
I still agree with because I think most Christians (atleast in Europe) have a easier time of separating Religion and everyday life while in Country's like Saudi Arabia and Iran it seems Relgion dominates everyday life to a point where it does become oppressive.But at the same time I realize that all Religions are susceptible to this. (Bible Belt)
And up until now many people be it Liberals or Moderates made the excuse that Terrorism is so popular and effective tool for Islam because of poverty.But recent attempted attacks prove this to be wrong.

Didn't you call me retarded earlier for not understanding the "islam is not the same as being a muslim" idea? So would you please explain it to this mentally challanged person?

 

[unozero]

You have the spiritual cornerstone of Islam prayer,fasting etc
And then you have the Political corner Jihad.Sharia law etc.
Obviously not all Muslims practice or believe (deeply) in the Political part.Just like only a small fraction of Americans even though the majority consider themselves Christians believe in Creationism The point is that you can separate these different cornerstones and still be considered a Muslim or Christian. (in they eyes of the Majority atleast.)

 

[No Limit]

Christians practice christianity.

Muslims practice Islam.

I don't follow the logic that christianity is not the same as being a christian or that being muslim is not the same as Islam. Seems like an absolutely insane distinction that makes absolutely no sense.

I'm sure you can explain the difference to my tiny little brain if you just write slower, thanks bro.

 

[Shakermaker]

Otherwise they seem perfectly happy with their situation.

The trend of employing violent means to suppress the religious freedom of minority groups is escalating, with local governments acting as the greatest violator, a report shows.

The research, carried out by the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace, shows there were 28 attacks on Christian churches between January and July this year. The figure is higher than 2009’s year-end total of 18 cases and 2008’s 17 attacks.

Source

Now check out how the government deals with an Islam sect that has been attacked by Muslim hardliners last week:

Religious Affairs Minister Suryadharma Ali called Ahmadiyah apostate to Islamic teaching and said followers should stop propagating their faith.

“It’s clear from a 2008 joint ministerial decree that Ahmadiyah is not a religion and can be categorized as deviant to Islam. Therefore [Ahmadiyah] followers had better stop their activities,” the minister said.

Source

Bear in mind: there is already a law which forbids members of the Ahmadiyah sect to proselytize. Again, your picture of of religious tolerance in Indonesia is much too rosy.

 

[unozero]

Christians practice christianity.

Muslims practice Islam.

I don't follow the logic that christianity is not the same as being a christian or that being muslim is not the same as Islam. Seems like an absolutely insane distinction that makes absolutely no sense.

I'm sure you can explain the difference to my tiny little brain if you just write slower, thanks bro.

You can separate the two you ****ing troll.
For some people it has varying degrees of meaning on the their daily life.
Are 80% of all Americans in Church on Sundays?
Do all Muslims think it's okay to treat females like Property?
No on both.

 

[No Limit]

I don't follow.

Explain it to my dumbass this way. What difference is there between being a christian and christianity? Also be sure to mention who's version of Christianity we are using. Thanks.

 

[xdrive]

I think you guys misunderstood the point he was making.
It's true that any white male making the points she made would be called out as a Racist.
and yes Ridley we know Islam is not a race but that doesn't stop people from believing that that is even with people on this forum.

Exactly the point i was trying to make.

I am glad someone got it.

 

[Sparta]

Doesn't her main argument boil down to

Moderation: good
Fundamentalism: bad?

Isn't that something everyone agrees on? I watched this yesterday, and I pretty much agree with her on those points although she's a little fuzzy with her logic. She says at one stage that there is no moderate Islam, but then she talks about secular Islamic states in earlier stages of history (like Turkey and Iran) that were far more progressive with their views. Isn't that a more successful and moderate Islam?

I get that she's against all the hypocrisy that people have towards Islam regarding tolerance of it, but she's a little fuzzy sometimes with her logic.

 

[Xevrex]

I don't follow.

Explain it to my dumbass this way. What difference is there between being a christian and christianity? Also be sure to mention who's version of Christianity we are using. Thanks.

I'm thinking that means the individual decides what tenets of Christianity he follows, what denomination he/she practises, how much he worships and how devout he/she is, and especially his/her interpretation of the Bible which can also fall under denomination. Christianity is the religion itself, yet the analogy to Islam doesn't really hold according to what that woman is saying. Her argument is because Islam commands one to submit to the complete will of Allah, anything short of complete devoutness and adherence to all tenets of the religion means you are not a true muslim. On the other hand, Muslims may choose how they worship and to what extent they follow the religion.

Basically, the difference between being a Christian and Christianity doesn't compare to being an Muslim and Islam because Christianity already has so many denominations and interpretations that it is not truly defined what it means to be a "true" Christian.

 

[No Limit]

Basically, the difference between being a Christian and Christianity doesn't compare to being an Muslim and Islam because Christianity already has so many denominations and interpretations that it is not truly defined what it means to be a "true" Christian.

Islam has a lot of different denominations and interpretations too, wouldn't be suprised if it had more than christianity. So I still don't follow. I'm sure unozero will set us straight as soon as he can get around to it.

I'mHer argument is because Islam commands one to submit to the complete will of Allah, anything short of complete devoutness and adherence to all tenets of the religion means you are not a true muslim. On the other hand, Muslims may choose how they worship and to what extent they follow the religion.

That's her own interpretation of Islam. Not the interpretation of every muslim. It is no different than different interpretations that Christians, Jews, or any other religions have. So to say Islam and being a muslim are not the same thing is idiotic to me.

 

[Xevrex]

That's her own interpretation of Islam. Not the interpretation of every muslim. It is no different than different interpretations that Christians, Jews, or any other religions have. So to say Islam and being a muslim are not the same thing is idiotic to me.

True, but the analogy falls apart if it's based on any other logic.

The only thing I can imagine is that Christianity encompasses the whole of its beliefs and a Christian doesn't have to practise every one, just like a Muslim does not have to practise every political and social tenet of Islam. Which is true, since you know that people are free to choose how they worship their own religion. So it doesn't fall under her logic, but instead means the buffer between the individual setting his limits for his religion and religion as a whole encompassing all of its social, political and religious code.

 

[No Limit]

Yeah, but it goes back to who's version of christianity you are using. Everyone has their own interpretations. And we all have a right to point out which ones are more idiotic than others but in the end it's all subjective.

I just found it kind of funny unozero called me a retard for pointing this out to him.

 

[Shakermaker]

Islam has a lot of different denominations and interpretations too, wouldn't be suprised if it had more than christianity.

Way more, because in a sense every mosque forms its own denomination. Islam isn't 'governed' like Christianity is. Most Christian denominations have organizational structures, many of which transcend national borders. Only Shia Islam comes close to that, but that is practiced by just 10% of all Muslims and the big majority of them lives in a sort of Shia belt across southern Iraq, Afghanistan and of course Iran.

Sunni Islam (90% of all Muslims) on the other hand has no leadership at all. Any Muslim can basically call himself an imam, set up shop in a mosque and interpret Islam in the way he sees fit. There is no governing body like the Vatican that issues the central dogmas and appoints shepherds to the flock. There used to be a 'leader of the faithful', a caliph. This was usually the dude that led (a big part of) the Muslim world, both politically and spiritually. But ever since the demise of the Ottoman empire and the emergence of nation states there hasn't been one. Bin Laden is sometimes called the caliph by his followers, but that is a chutzpa.

What Islam in general does have is the Ummah or world community of Muslims. This however is more an idea of belonging together than anything. Islamophobes usually interpret it as the universal Muslim wish to form one giant state and dominate the world. They point to the origins of Islam, scream "Remember Poitiers!" and are afraid that it will all happen again. They forget though that there isn't a unifying person or organization to make that happen.

There is a reality though that governments in some Muslim countries are more involved with religious affairs than their Western counterparts. The Indonesian government declaring the Ahmadiyah sect a heresy, Iran obviously where the supreme leader is a cleric, or Saudi Arabia that has special police force for religious affairs. As I already posted I do hope that Islam will go through a period of Enlightenment like the West did in the 1700's. Politics shouldn't meddle with religion and vice versa.

 

[No Limit]

I watched this women on CNN yesterday. Jesus, talk about clueless.

Her entire ideology goes like this: You can't be a moderate muslim so convert to christianity.

I can't find the entire interview, here is a section:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mON-qAEZXo0

She seems to think that changing religion is a matter of picking one. Well I wanna believe in God but I don't want to blow stuff up, aha! Jesus here I come.

 

[Polaris]

You are clueless and maybe you missed that part where she is an atheist.

 

[No Limit]

You are clueless and maybe you missed that part where she is an atheist.

Her being atheist is an excuse for what she preaches? That you should not be muslim and if you must believe in a God believe in a christian one?

And no, you're clueless /sticks tounge out

 

[Solaris]

Come of it No Limit. She never says anyone 'must' do anything. She just says, she thinks it would be better if Muslims gave up their bat-shit stupid ideas and changed them for another set of bat-shit stupid ideas which were slightly less dangerous.

Why is it that people of the left, like No Limit, like Mr.Stern, will always defend Islam. They'll never make thread titles like 'Taliban murder pregnant woman', but they will make 'Christian Extremists kill abortion doctor'.

Why attack Christianity and defend Islam, why do you hate your own society so much? Why not just attack all equally, and when you see an awful, horrible, ideology such as Islam, be willing to recognise that without having to bring Christianity into it or whatever.

 

[No Limit]

Your post is a little ironic no?

Come of it No Limit. She never says anyone 'must' do anything. She just says, she thinks it would be better if Muslims gave up their bat-shit stupid ideas and changed them for another set of bat-shit stupid ideas which were slightly less dangerous.

That's a totally idiotic position, is it not? Your ideas are stupid so why don't you take up these other stupid ideas? Makes no logical sense.

Yet you are here defending her (from what I could tell). So why is it that people like you will defend these idiotic statements against Muslims no matter what? Why do people like you quickly use Islam as a scape goat for much bigger problems while sitting here and trying to pretend like I'm some kind of Muslim defender when I'm not.

Why is it that people of the left, like No Limit, like Mr.Stern, will always defend Islam. They'll never make thread titles like 'Taliban murder pregnant woman', but they will make 'Christian Extremists kill abortion doctor'.

Show me where I was defending Islam? You bring this up every time. Every time I ask you for examples. Every time you fail. Any different this time around or is this the same straw men bullshit you pull every single time?