BETA mods now??

[Javert]

Is this going to be a trend for mod releases now? Because it can be a good or bad thing.

As seen in Dystopia, releasing a "beta" version created lots of good buzz, and they have been improving ever since, but slowly.

Recently, Empires just released a beta; and it dearly shows: lag, bugs, and all.

In opposition, MINERVA doesn't release betas, and I'm almost positive other hi-profile mods aren't about to jump on the bandwagon yet. But is this becoming a trend? Are mods taking a page from those FilePlanet mmo specials, and is it working? Is this truly a productive release, or marketing hijinks?

Full releases or bring on the betas.

Discuss.

 

[X_i_Z_o_R]

Release betas first - if you do a full release there are still inevitably going to be bugs which you'll have to patch up, so a beta release is more ideal for this.

 

[skware]

beta = more people to find bugs for ya

 

[Nih]

This is how mods have always done it. And how they should do it.

http://www.garry.tv/?p=72

With singleplayer mods like MINERVA, and other old SP HL mods, it's different because you have to get it right the first time. Most people don't feel like playing SP mods twice, so you have to make sure it's as good as possible the first release.

 

[Crispy]

This is how mods have always done it. And how they should do it.
[Removed link]
With singleplayer mods like MINERVA, and other old SP HL mods, it's different because you have to get it right the first time. Most people don't feel like playing SP mods twice, so you have to make sure it's as good as possible the first release.

QFT apart from the link to that thread, where I posted a reply which was removed by Garry because it got caught in the spokes of his "propabandawagon".

 

[Humidor]

In the case of singleplayer mods, releasing final versions only makes sense. For multiplayer mods, I don't see how you could succeed without open betas. That's the mod maker's advantage over professional game developers, the ability to try new game design and release often without consequence.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

In the case of Multiplayer - release early, release often. What you considered an "Amazing feature" that you've been polishing for months might turn out to be just not fun.

Public input also gives you a sense of what people want.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Cargo Cult]

In the case of singleplayer mods, releasing final versions only makes sense.

Not necessarily - MINERVA's episodic thingy means I can develop new stuff along the way, and learn what people actually enjoy. And, I can release bugfixed versions of previous maps as I go.

You really won't believe how big a morale-boost it is to be able to release something every couple of months, instead of plugging away at the same thing for years on end only for the project to die through lack of commitment.

I imagine it could work on scaled-up single-player projects too - for example, an initial episode could introduce just one or two new characters or enemies, and just a couple of weapons - which could then be refined and added to for the next episode.

So basically, don't expect to ever finish something. Keep adding to it, and release the results along the way. It focuses the mind wonderfully!

 

[Javert]

In the case of Multiplayer - release early, release often. What you considered an "Amazing feature" that you've been polishing for months might turn out to be just not fun.

Public input also gives you a sense of what people want.

-Angry Lawyer

To play Devil's Advocate, don't other bugs often obstruct the implementation of said feature? The most immediate example I can come up with the lag and path-finding problems that are plaguin Empires' vehicles, which SHOULD have been one of the mod's highlights.

 

[X_i_Z_o_R]

To play Devil's Advocate, don't other bugs often obstruct the implementation of said feature? The most immediate example I can come up with the lag and path-finding problems that are plaguin Empires' vehicles, which SHOULD have been one of the mod's highlights.

They didn't detect the vehicle lag with their small testing team - the problem has been detected through the beta test - and it's very good it's just a beta test, imagine if that was a release

 

[theGreenBunny]

Beta versions are good, players expecting too much from them is bad.

 

[Argyll]

Frankly, I don't see a difference in a 'public beta' and a 'final release' because they're the exact same thing. There is no such thing as a 'final release' for mods... or there shouldn't be anyways, but if so, it shouldn't/isn't the very first one (unless the mod dies).

Opening up 'beta testing' for the general public isn't really like internal beta testing. It's releasing the mod, seeing what breaks, fixing it, and adding more stuff. That's the same process as a 'release.' If you have your own beta testing team, you release far more often to far fewer people - fixing far more bugs. If there's something annoying, it gets addressed quickly and easily.

If you release to the public for 'beta testing' in the same way, people won't play because they'll get frustrated with annoying bugs, and won't want to have to update so often because of bug fixes.

So, a release to the general public should not be called a 'beta.' The beta should be what is tested internally before the public plays, regardless whether the public release is the fully intended vision. It is natural for mods to progress over time, and the community needs to realize this.

You might be thinking 'wtf why d0n't u releas3 INS then!?!?~1' and my answer is this: It's not ready for a release. If it makes you feel any better, it's not ready for a 'public beta' yet. Why? Because we still have a few things to add. 'but release newayz agrylle u sayd dat modz don't have 2 release evryting in ferst releaze.' Yes, but by all means the first release of INS won't have everything that INS wants.

 

[AmishSlayer]

I think that most mod teams are approaching releases in the wrong fashion. Most are simply thinking too big for first release instead of building a mod and taking feedback as you go along.

I've watched countless mods go down the drain (for HL1) when working on a big release. No content even gets out the door and the team and community seems to just get bored of it and it dies. I would think having semi-frequent releases of content would not only help team morale but keep the community interested knowing that the mod has good support behind it.

Look at the ever popular CS and DOD. They began with small releases and kept building on their current content.

Start small and slowly grow.

 

[Javert]

Frankly, I don't see a difference in a 'public beta' and a 'final release' because they're the exact same thing. There is no such thing as a 'final release' for mods... or there shouldn't be anyways, but if so, it shouldn't/isn't the very first one (unless the mod dies).

That's what I'd say, except that "beta" sometimes excuses the very bad bugs. As if there would be less blame-flames if a bad product came out with a beta stamp on it as opposed to a Final Release stamp on it. I speak "Final Release" as in a 1.0, not an end.

Is this fair for the players though?

 

[Argyll]

AmishSlayer, I agree and disagree with your points.

I too have seen many promising, and well developed, Half-Life mods go down the tube (i.e. Conflict in Nam). It's really case by case.

I think it really depends on the mod whether they choose to adapt the 'release early, release often' or wait until they have things in place first.

If the mod has a relatively small team and does not need a whole lot of their own original content (can use HL2 stuff), they definitely should release soon and often. There is no reason not to.

On the other hand though, if you have a rather larger-scale total conversion (we can use Insurgency for example), you might want to wait until things are in place first. It is more than just a few tweaks to code... it is building up new features in order to deliver something fresh. Of course you need the resources and dedication to do so, and if those aren't present you may lose faith and slip down the drainpipe (a la most mods).

I admit though, when HL2 was announced, my ideas for INS (Op: CO-IN at that point ) were pretty big. But, as time goes on... you get more conservative with the design because you learn more about the engine and learn how it takes forever to get things accomplished. That's what sucks about modding, and it should be kept in mind at all times that you're just a mod! The community needs to realize this as well... we're only human, with other lives besides posting on Forums.

Believe me, I know and the whole INS team knows that we're a mod. This may look a little contradictory, but as the lead designer, I've cut a lot from the first release of INS because I've realized that it just can't be done if I ever want to release the sucker... which is my main goal. I want Insurgency to be released even more than the next guy! Many people think that we're holding it back, but we most definitely are not. You'll have it the day after it's ready.

 

[Javert]

(Op: CO-IN at that point )

Op: Co-in > INS.

 

[63]

Opcoin > all.

 

[Crispy]

Opcoin > all.

Coin-op owns all.