Blatant dishonesty to try and prove a point

[Raziaar]

Here's a question for you all! Have you before in the past ever been deliberately dishonest with people you are debating with, in order to prove a point? I'm talking about outright lying.

I'll start off with an example of some moments that I have done this, on this very forum. And The reason I am making this thread is because I feel bad about how dishonest of an individual I used to be and figured it would be a good outlet for discussion and maybe getting some insight into why people do this.

Anyway... this particular scenario goes way back a few years on these forums in the politics forum where I have been debating sexuality, and in particular homosexuality. In order to try and prove a point I professed to have a gay friend, when the reality of it was I had no friends... and I tried to use that fake gay friend as leverage in my argument even though I knew I was lying. I've never had a homosexual friend in my life.

I don't know exactly how I was able to just so willfully lie like that and be completely dishonest with myself and the people I was arguing with, but these days I would be appalled with myself if I lied about something like that.

It also makes me wonder how often the people around me are doing this exact same thing I used to do, because undoubtedly there are going to be a lot of people out there who were just as, if not considerably more capable of being dishonest like that. Whether it be non-existant black or gay friends, fake eyewitness accounts or friends/family who were eyewitnesses to particular political events or other scenarios.

Have any of you found yourself doing these things, and in particular on these forums?

Come on now, don't be shy! Though honestly I see this thread failing quite fast.

 

[Asknoone]

Yes, I have.

 

[CptStern]

as penance you should befriend a homosexual

 

[Sulkdodds]

I've definitely done this, but rarely in the context of a 'debate'.

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

Absolutly not. But if I did then why would I tell? Everyone would think I was a liar

 

[Raziaar]

I've definitely done this, but rarely in the context of a 'debate'.

Well, it doesn't have to be a debate. That's just my experiences honestly. Could be anything really... where you know you're lying and you do it anyway to try and get what you want.

Absolutly not. But if I did then why would I tell? Everyone would think I was a lier.

I have no problem with admitting I lied in the past and letting people know that I'm moving away from that for my present self.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I really can't remember doing it, but I'm sure I must have at school at least.

 

[MJ12]

I've done it before, but I try to do it as little as possible.

The only time I use it is when I am in an argument with someone who is so close minded to the point, that the only possible way I can get them to empathize is if I use an example of myself.

It's really unfortunate though, that we all have to go to such lengths at some point for those individuals to understand.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm sure I have a lot more moments like this in the past, but the only one that I can actually remember is the gay friend one. And I remember using it several times.

 

[Hurricane]

That's terrible how could you do such a thing? Even my pirate-bank-robber-lawyer friend thinks it's despicable!

Seriously though, I have done it on occasion. I think it's easy to do if you truly believe in what it is you're fighting about.

 

[VirusType2]

Like I stated in the past, I will very rarely lie, only if I think it will protect myself, my friends or my family from emotional or physical harm or legal problems.

I literally dislike people that lie for something essentially meaningless. But mainly people who make a habit of it, to where you can't believe anything they say.

 

[The Monkey]

I usually lie to improve stories and such, not to make things up. Although when I'm drunk nearly everything I say is a lie, including my name.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I literally dislike people that lie for something essentially meaningless. But mainly people who make a habit of it, to where you can't believe anything they say.

I can understand this because I feel an instinctual repugnance somewhere in my gut at the action, especially when it's me that does it. On the other hand, though, if you embellish a story to make someone laugh, who is harmed? Or even if you totally make something up? What's the difference? Was that much really riding on the 'truth' of the story, rather than its interest and entertainment value? Maybe. But then who would know?

Still, it feels terrible precisely because it's so petty, to lie about something that doesn't matter at all. I did it a lot, when I was younger. Far less often now, and yet not quite as infrequent as I'd like.

 

[Raziaar]

This sort of thing reminds me of what's going on in this health care debate honestly. How can these people lie about these things like death panels and pulling the plug on grandma etc etc etc... when they can't logically believe those things without lying to themselves and then propagating the lies.

It's kind of funny though, and I don't know if it's entirely coincidence or not. I used to be very conservative and quite religious, and over time as I shed those things and the beliefs that I had, becoming more liberal, progressive and secular I seem to have become a better person as a result.

Weird.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I used to be quite a religious person. I don't think my moral code has really changed at all since I started to change my thinking.

I suppose, though, someone who believes in things like that might feel the need to protect that belief.

 

[Sulkdodds]

This sort of thing reminds me of what's going on in this health care debate honestly. How can these people lie about these things like death panels and pulling the plug on grandma etc etc etc... when they can't logically believe those things without lying to themselves and then propagating the lies.

It's kind of funny though, and I don't know if it's entirely coincidence or not. I used to be very conservative and quite religious, and over time as I shed those things and the beliefs that I had, becoming more liberal, progressive and secular I seem to have become a better person as a result.

Weird.

Not so very weird. We all know that conservatives are horrible, shrill, unpleasant creatures - indeed, barely human, and worthy of extermination were it not so much tiresome effort to go through for such pitiful things (though like all beasts they are entertaning when they're drunk).

 

[VirusType2]

I don't consider making up humorous stories or obvious exaggeration to be lying. It's harmless and it can make for a good read.

Unless you seriously try to convince people that it is fact. Like, if you wrote a book or article and lied in it, but tried to pass the lies off as facts, then, yeah, that's lying.

 

[Raziaar]

Not so very weird. We all know that conservatives are horrible, shrill, unpleasant creatures - indeed, barely human, and worthy of extermination were it not so much tiresome effort to go through for such pitiful things (though like all beasts they are entertaning when they're drunk).

I don't consider making up humorous stories or obvious exaggeration to be lying. It's harmless and it can make for a good read.

Unless you seriously try to convince people that it is fact. Like, if you wrote a book or article, and lied in it, but tried to pass the lies off as facts, then, yeah, that's lying.

Yeah, it was pretty much a dead serious debate and I was trying to pass my "experience of having a gay friend" as fact while being quite anti-gay.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah, it was pretty much a dead serious debate and I was trying to pass my "experience of having a gay friend" as fact while being quite anti-gay.

I think I remember that discussion actually. Are you stil anti-gay?

 

[Raziaar]

I think I remember that discussion actually. Are you stil anti-gay?

No, not at all. I've been very supportive of gay rights the past couple years.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You don't pay any attention at all!

Once I believed in a God, and was a conservative of the small c; yet lo! mine eyes have seen the light, and I have embraced the cause of liberalism; when I was a child I thought as a child, but now I am become a man, and have put away childish things. Hallejulah!

 

[kupocake]

Comedians do it all the time. Therefore, everyone who answers yes is a comedian.

I haven't of course. Oh, and if I ever make the claim, I don't really have any homosexual friends, because I'm a closet homophobe.

 

[Tyguy]

If any of you recall me suggesting that my penis is big in past threads, that's not true. In reality it is actually very, very small.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Kadayi]

I haven't of course. Oh, and if I ever make the claim, I don't really have any homosexual friends, because I'm a closet homophobe.

You're living on the wrong City for that

Lied in a debate? Generally If I'm not clued into my subject in some way, or have a strong rationale behind an opinion I just don't get involved as a rule.

 

[Raziaar]

You don't pay any attention at all!

 

[Laivasse]

I think I know what Raz is referring to. Embellishment during storytelling is completely forgivable IMO, as long as it's for the purposes of making the story more entertaining, as opposed to just making the teller appear more macho, smart or sexy. What sticks in the craw much more is the callous abuse of the truth in order to win an argument or make one's own knowledge/logic appear unassailable.

I avoid it as much as I humanly can because it makes me feel like a weak, shoddy individual when I know I've done it. I can't think of any solid examples of actually having done it, but I know they tend to appear in those 3am internal humiliation reels that we all play back for ourselves. A person's core personality is derived from what they passionately believe - if you can't back up what you believe with true examples, then it can feel like your whole being is undermined. IT'S THAT DEEP, MAN.

 

[PorkPi]

I've put fake information about myself when writing essays at school before. To make the paper better I'll put in some BS about having a friend who experienced something, or myself, or whatever, usually so I can stay within the writing prompt.

 

[Qonfused]

Yeah, I've done this before. I rarely do it for shit that actually might mean something. Usually I'm just bullshitting around.

 

[The Monkey]

There was one problem with your lie, Timmy. Why would your gay friend be your friend if you were anti-gay?

 

[Raziaar]

There was one problem with your lie, Timmy. Why would your gay friend be your friend if you were anti-gay?

I never said it was logical! But that's seriously how it went down. It was all very absurd, and it's crazy how a person could be compelled to do it. The honesty route is much more refreshing. Though I still have no issue with white lies.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Done it whilst a teenager, but I don't think I have been deliberately dishonest whilst I am a man

 

[Dinnesch]

I used to lie pretty much every time i tried to make my opinion look good, but it's improving now. It's also much more satisfying to come up with real arguments because it makes you look smart.

 

[The Monkey]

Found it:
http://halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1355018&highlight=gay+friend#post1355018

The forums nearly crashed for me too.

 

[kupocake]

There was one problem with your lie, Timmy. Why would your gay friend be your friend if you were anti-gay?

Surely it's quite a common thing to hear from people who're back-peddling from their homophobic / racist remarks. The old 'but really, some of my best friends are x' defence.

 

[Raziaar]

Found it:
http://halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1355018&highlight=gay+friend#post1355018

The forums nearly crashed for me too.

Hooly shit. hahahha. You found it!

Yes, I have been told it's a choice by *MANY* people. Some of whom are my friends. And some of these people are unashamed to say that they have had past life experiences that have affected their change from heterosexual-to homosexual.

One has been abused for much of his young life by a member of the same sex, and over time he slowly changed to practicing homosexuality. And he admitted this change. That he never felt the desire originally that he liked men.

Another... another friend of mine at a young age offered her body to others of the opposite sex, in exchange for money, etc. After years of doing this, she changed her lifestyle to reflect that of homosexuality. She developed an attraction towards women, the people she did not offer her body to.


I myself grew up thinking that I was somehow attracted to other boys. But all this was a matter of social influences. Now, that i'm older and an adult, I don't still have this 'biological function' that makes me homosexual. I do not practice homosexuality and I do not entertain the thoughts of it regarding myself. It's just not who I am. But I could just as easily become a homosexual over the course of a period of time depending on social influences just like when I was a child. It all depends on what I want to do. I have the freedom to stray from my instincts.

Wow... I was one ****ing lying bastard. I make myself sick!

 

[Sulkdodds]

Holy shit, Raz, I was expecting a passing remark but you made up these characters with elaborate backstories. Good job.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I don't recall that I ever have. Not counting what I consider sarcasm.

 

[Laivasse]

Wow... I was one ****ing lying bastard. I make myself sick!

Maybe you're lying now, about having lied. Maybe you never lied at all. There's just no way for us to trust what you say, now that we know you're a liar :|

 

[Raziaar]

Maybe you're lying now, about having lied. Maybe you never lied at all. There's just no way for us to trust what you say, now that we know you're a liar :|

I figured this response would have come in the first or second page. Third wasn't too far off.

 

[Warped]

Its the internet so you can be whomever you want to be. But yes I have lied a little to prove a point. some days I'll be a complete ass too but most of the time you'll see my most honest conversations. Also the internet can completely change your viewpoint of the world. I used to think the world was a dirty place but now I found out it is nastier than I thought.