Border Control

[No Limit]

Aren't the Dems blaming Bush, a republican, for being so lax with border control? Doesn't Bush, a Republican, want to make it so illegal migrants and get drivers licences amoung other benifits? Aren't the democrats the biggest opposition to this plan?

No, the Republicans are the ones that have a problem with Bush on this (however, many Democrats do too). This one issue is actually something I agree with Bush on but my problem is that I am yet to see him act on his belief.

 

[Bodacious]

still those guns gotta get in the wrong hands somehow ..stolen, legit ..doesnt matter ..most come from the US

You might want to rethink that

 

[Icarusintel]

Border control would be most effective if we let every redneck with a shotgun sit out along the border with a case of bear and plenty of shells and just let them shoot every mexican who ran across the border, would save government resources and provide entertainment for the rednecks and provide plenty of opportunities for more bars, which would in turn stimulate the economy, we can;t go wrong, really

 

[RZAL]

Border control would be most effective if we let every redneck with a shotgun sit out along the border with a case of bear and plenty of shells and just let them shoot every mexican who ran across the border, would save government resources and provide entertainment for the rednecks and provide plenty of opportunities for more bars, which would in turn stimulate the economy, we can;t go wrong, really

Check this out.

Douglas, Ariz. -- Second of two parts.
Casey Nethercott grabbed a walkie-talkie, barked out an order to his hulking, gun-toting sentry "Tiny," then sped off to join a pair of volunteers who were patrolling for illegal immigrants along the Mexican border of his ranch. It was February, and out among the dry, spiny mesquite bushes that cover Nethercott's land, his aides had stumbled upon a Ford Bronco -- abandoned, they believed, by drug smugglers. The men hammered at the steering column with a pick and a crowbar, trying to release the wheels so they could tow the vehicle back to their compound.

"We've got about five more years and this country is ruined," said Nethercott, whose property serves as a base of operations for Ranch Rescue. "Illegals are destroying our fabric of life." Some longtime ranchers in southern Arizona, frustrated by the steady stream of northbound migrants crossing their lands, have taken to patrolling their properties and turning over those they catch to the U.S. Border Patrol.

But in the past few years, a new phenomenon has developed: Ideologically motivated -- and well-armed -- militia groups such as Ranch Rescue have set up shop in border communities from California to Texas and advertise on the Internet for recruits to come down with firearms and camping gear to join the border protection efforts. Law enforcement officials say they have seen few legal violations by the groups, but immigrant rights advocates contend the emergence of vigilantes is evidence that the U.S.-Mexico border is more dangerous than ever.

Illegal immigrants face mistreatment by smugglers and bandits, capture by border guards, dehydration in the desert -- and now armed civilian patrols. A decade after President Bill Clinton began fortifying the border, migrants are dying in increasing numbers, while the population of undocumented immigrants in the United States has never been greater. Last year, 409 migrants died trying to cross into this country, seven times the number of deaths in 1995, according to the Mexican Foreign Ministry.

Defending the front gate of the ramshackle Ranch Rescue compound with an assault rifle and a walkie-talkie, 21-year-old Tiny had arrived to volunteer a few days earlier from his home in Aberdeen, Wash., after a friend showed him the Ranch Rescue Web site. Tiny said his name was really Kalen, though he declined to give his last name. "Someone needs to be doing the government's job," said the towering, heavy-set Kalen, as he scanned the perimeter of the base, dubbed Camp Thunderbird. "I was unemployed."

Nethercott, a former Southern California bounty hunter, said the Border Patrol is incapable of controlling either illegal immigration or drug smuggling: "They're failing. They get an A for effort and an F for actuality." Ranch Rescue volunteer Bill Dore said he understood the attraction the United States poses for migrants from Mexico and other developing countries. But he is devoting his retirement to keeping illegal immigrants out.

"Our country is going down the tubes," he said. "The people coming across here, they don't want to be assimilated. They don't want to use our language." Dore, 64, who moved to Douglas five years ago when his job as a television engineer went overseas, said he has also been a volunteer with Civil Homeland Defense.

"Everyone has to have a concealed weapons permit," he said of the group. "Then at night we go sit out on the trails that are hot until the people come through. We close in on them, and we say, 'Stop. Siéntense. Sit down.' Then we call the Border Patrol, and they come out and pick them up. We've picked up about 2,500 people in the last two years." Such measures are legal, said Carol Capas, a spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department, where Douglas is located.

"The sheriff's stance is, as long as they remain within the limits of Arizona law, they're treated like everybody else," said Capas of the militia groups. "If they're firing their weapons to create an endangerment situation .. . or if they physically hold (the immigrants) or point a gun at them, (that's illegal)." Capas said her agency has had few such complaints from migrants, and none of them has led to a prosecution.

Immigrant advocates, though, say they doubt that migrants realize, when surrounded by a group of armed men in camouflage fatigues, that they're facing civilians rather than the U.S. military. And advocates question whether such migrants would dare confront their captors. During the past year, paramilitary groups in southern Arizona, including Ranch Rescue, American Border Patrol and Civil Homeland Defense, have had run- ins with the law.

Glenn Spencer, head of American Border Patrol, was sentenced to a year's probation and a $2,500 fine for recklessly firing a gun and hitting a neighbor's house. Chris Simcox, the founder of Civil Homeland Defense, was convicted this month of carrying a concealed weapon on federal land while tracking migrants and lying to a federal officer about it. He was sentenced to two years' probation.

And last year in Yuma County, Ariz., two men were convicted of detaining and handcuffing two female migrants and three children, said county prosecutor Patricia Orozco. Nethercott himself was jailed in Arizona in March and handed over to Texas authorities. He's now awaiting a June 7 criminal trial in Jim Hogg County in south Texas on three felony charges for allegedly beating two illegal immigrants he helped detain there last year.

"They made it up," Nethercott said of the charges. "If I had pistol- whipped these people, they'd have been dead. ... They're making me out to be a racist and a liar, and they're lying." Using the Freedom of Information Act, the Border Action Network, a southern Arizona immigrant rights group, has obtained more than two years' worth of incident reports from the Cochise County sheriff and the Border Patrol, said director Jennifer Allen.

"There are a couple dozen incidents that, from our read of it, should have been investigated," she said. "Some people reported being shot at ... others believed (the groups) were law enforcement from the way they were dressed and the fact they were carrying guns." Allen's group has sued three members of a Cochise County ranching family for trespassing on another person's land, impersonating law enforcement and unlawfully detaining a group of undocumented migrants. The group is preparing a second suit on behalf of a Mexican man who was allegedly beaten by vigilantes and bitten by their dogs, she said.

Nethercott, Ranch Rescue and rancher Joseph Sutton, meanwhile, are being sued by the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center in the Texas beating case. Tensions around the case have reportedly caused a schism in the organization, and Ranch Rescue founder Jack Foote now repudiates Nethercott and Camp Thunderbird on the group's Web site.

"The aim of the suit is to make it impossible for landowners to invite this group onto their land," said Mark Potok, editor of the law center's Intelligence Report. "Once Sutton is found guilty in this matter, no other rancher will invite any of these vigilante groups to operate on their land." But Border Patrol spokesman Charles Griffin said he welcomes the watchful presence of ranchers and civilian patrol groups.

"Every law enforcement agency appreciates a neighborhood watch," he said, then added, "I would caution them to be very careful not to violate someone's civil liberties."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/31/MNGJ66TS9G1.DTL

 

[Icarusintel]

Check this out.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/31/MNGJ66TS9G1.DTL

I always liked vigilantism, it gets the job done

 

[GhostFox]

You can buy guns here Stern. And it isn't very hard. Canada does manufacture guns too you know.

 

[RZAL]

I always liked vigilantism, it gets the job done

Note what the local law enforcement has to say

"The sheriff's stance is, as long as they remain within the limits of Arizona law, they're treated like everybody else," said Capas of the militia groups. "If they're firing their weapons to create an endangerment situation .. . or if they physically hold (the immigrants) or point a gun at them, (that's illegal)." Capas said her agency has had few such complaints from migrants, and none of them has led to a prosecution.

"Every law enforcement agency appreciates a neighborhood watch," he said, then added, "I would caution them to be very careful not to violate someone's civil liberties."

Doesn't sound like vigilantism, sounds more like a neighborhood watch.
I suppose you can only push people so far before they start reacting.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

we'd have the rest of the world

Facist! Facist! Facist!

[Canadian flags burn in the background] Although, I would'nt be suprised Stern if Canada was secretly planning to take over the world.

I mean, lets review this: Get your allies war effort quagmired in the middle-east, and he cannot protect his own borders.

Feign your armies disorder ... but then have an order he cannot recognize nor expect.

Shake hands with him to know whats in his backyard, then steal it when he's not looking ...

I mean, c'mon! Its going to happen one day! Canada's second largest to Russia -- phear teh canadian combine!!1

 

[P-Lo]

Check this out.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/31/MNGJ66TS9G1.DTL

"Our country is going down the tubes," he said. "The people coming across here, they don't want to be assimilated. They don't want to use our language." Dore, 64, who moved to Douglas five years ago when his job as a television engineer went overseas, said he has also been a volunteer with Civil Homeland Defense.


Nice generalizing. Dumb$%#.

 

[bliink]

I would stay on topic in this thread...
not that I really like the topic, since it seems to be turning members in to xenophobic maniacs on an international forum...

 

[Tr0n]

I would stay on topic in this thread...
not that I really like the topic, since it seems to be turning members in to xenophobic maniacs on an international forum...

Stay on topic bliink...ON TOPIC!!! *waves fist in the air*

Ok ok sorry...plz don't ban me.

Now back to the topic....Why don't we just put up a huge ass wall at the mexican border and put guards on the top of it.

 

[bliink]

Now back to the topic....Why don't we just put up a huge ass wall at the mexican border and put guards on the top of it.

heh.. the Russians tried that in Berlin once.. I don't think it was worth it lol

 

[Tr0n]

heh.. the Russians tried that in Berlin once.. I don't think it was worth it lol

Well it did work for a while...bearly anybody go through.

Also the russkies had limited resources.

 

[bliink]

Well it did work for a while...bearly anybody go through.

Also the russkies had limited resources.

Yeah, but it made/helped everyone hate the russians, it also sucked on their economy

 

[Tr0n]

Yeah, but it made/helped everyone hate the russians, it also sucked on their economy

Hell...everyone hates us already.

Our economy is going down the drain so hey lets **** it up even more!

...or we could just invade australia and steal all the kangaroos!

 

[jondy]

...or we could just invade australia and steal all the kangaroos!

Sensible Policies for a Stronger America :cheers:

 

[Icarusintel]

...or we could just invade australia and steal all the kangaroos!

Australia can have the Kangaroos, give me the damn Koalas, everyone knows they're the most dangerous land animal on earth

 

[RZAL]

Now back to the topic....Why don't we just put up a huge ass wall at the mexican border and put guards on the top of it.

A fifteen-foot-high wall was started in 1994…..

The metal wall cuts straight through the middle of the city, surrounded by a trench and an "all clear zone," a no-man's land. Floodlights, armed soldiers, and high-tech tracking devices are all working overtime. Infrared night-vision scopes, low-light TV cameras, ground sensors, helicopters, and all-terrain vehicles move up and down the border all night. Armed militia and border guards stand at the ready. Inhabitants of the city call it the "iron curtain". The town is Nogales, Arizona, and the wall is built by Americans. The guards work for the Border Patrol and the U.S. Army. It's flimsier than the wall was in Cold War-era East Berlin, and there's another big difference: this wall is meant to keep illegal immigrants out, rather than a captive population in.

The fifteen-foot-high wall was started in 1994, as part of Operations "Gatekeeper" and "Safeguard" — efforts by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to seal off the flow of illegal Mexican immigrants through the San Diego Area and Nogales, Arizona. The militarization of the US — Mexican border began in earnest about four years ago, with the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act of 1996. The number of Border Patrol agents on the US-Mexico border has doubled over the last five years, to about 8,200. Their budget, meanwhile, has tripled — from $374 million to $952 million. In addition, Congress has assigned about 10,000 soldiers to assist with fence construction and road building. Although they aren't authorized to arrest illegals, the National Guard operates high-tech surveillance equipment and stands guard at the borders.

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1370b-1.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_1.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_2.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/annualreports/ar95/chapter3.htm

 

[DEATH eVADER]

My idea is to place a pillbox or a machine gun nest every 500 yards along the border.

Why don't you have a tactical nuclear missiles aimed at the border while your at it

 

[DEATH eVADER]

hmmm kill poor people because they want a better life ...ya that's a good idea :upstare:

personally you should build a giant wall ...start on the canada-US border

Canada dont want US immigrants :E

 

[firemachine69]

A fifteen-foot-high wall was started in 1994…..


http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1370b-1.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_1.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/publications/enforce/border/ins_2.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/annualreports/ar95/chapter3.htm

Funny they mention it's illegal for the some of the border soldiers to arrest them. Must be a States thing, if an illegal alien makes his way past my border that's a criminal act, and therefor I'm within my right to make a citizen's arrest.

Not why I carry handcuffs tho.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Personally, I have many friends that "hopped" the border, but i argee something has to be done. How bout a GATE??? When you go, get a green card (or whatever) for temporary work. If you want to stay longer, you have to fill out an application stating why you are here, what you will be doing, and consenting to government inspection. Also, you would have to state your place of residence (in the U.S.) and if you were not a temporary worker, then you would have to notify the U.S. government on where you were moving to, when, and so on.

On those vigilantes, if they were on my land when they crossed, I'd be out there trying to nab em. A few .30-06 bullets over thier heads, and they wouldn;t try to cross on my land anymore :cheese:

Really though, if they are making citizens arrests, that fine, and if the Mexicans are shooting, then they can shoot to. Brutality though, tht should not e tolerated.

 

[RZAL]

Funny they mention it's illegal for the some of the border soldiers to arrest them. Must be a States thing, if an illegal alien makes his way past my border that's a criminal act, and therefor I'm within my right to make a citizen's arrest.

Not why I carry handcuffs tho.

Yea it’s a state thing. Not all states have statutes dealing with citizen's arrest, those that do very on circumstances for when a citizen can hold or detain suspects, most are based on serious crimes.

 

[amneziac85]

All I have to say is if it were a million Africans sneaking through that border we wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

[RZAL]

All I have to say is if it were a million Africans sneaking through that border we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

If the circumstances were the same, why wouldn’t we be having discussion? This problem is not only effecting Americans but also the Hispanic immigrants. If we simply ignore and deny the fact that a problem exists then we are just as guilty as those who are going beyond the law.