Britain is doing a-okay

[Iliketobenaked]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=61c_1210804020


You guys better do something before that shit pours over here.
It's a disgrace. :-|

 

[French Ninja]

inb4butchristiansblowupabortionclinics!

 

[Iliketobenaked]

inb4butchristiansblowupabortionclinics!

lol That happened once like what? 15 years ago?

 

[Polaris]

Where are you from Iliketobenaked? Some country without problems?

 

[Iliketobenaked]

no not all I'm in the Country with the most problems right now,but This is something we don't need also for the sake of decent Muslims We don't need that fanatic shit here.


Have you ever seen the Movie "The Siege"? with Bruce Willis and Denzel Washington?
Cuz thats what we will most likely do to Muslims be it right or wrong we did it with the Japanese,We will do it again if shit hits the fan even more then it already has.

The thread title I chose because some British people will have you believing that their Country has no problem with Immigration etc.I did mean to imply that the US is perfect,far from it.

 

[Polaris]

Never seen that movie, maybe you should try better reasoning in politics than hollywood movie references. America have Muslim and other religious fanatics too, don't be naive.
Some short shakycam video with shouting fundies can't explain the situation in Britain. Useless thread.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

What can we do? The Government has made it quite clear we can't do anything. If we say anything it's deemed racist,anti-Islamic. But technically the police can't do much as he has the right to protest. Just like when some pissed off Muslims here protested over the Danish cartoon with banners saying that 7/7 will happen again, even though to my knowledge no media here showed it. It was OK because it was their right to free speech. But don't be deceived by that video, it's makes it seem like we have a big problem with fanatics which we don't this is not a common occurance. Any idiot can get a loudspeaker and a car and do that, not just Muslims .

Iliketobenaked I do believe we have a massive problem with immigration, essentially anyone can come here and leech off us. I know someone from Pakistan who came here, never had a job just lives on benefits. He has a Council house with the bills payed, he was given a car because he can't speak English and without it he felt trapped and distressed. And now he had brought over a load of his family and none of them work. Frankly i don't blame him why bother learning English if you get a free house and car. We are the land of the free in more ways than you think.

Eventually Europe will be screwed once Turkey gets into Europe. And they will get into Europe as all the European leaders want an Islamic state in Europe. The Middle East and Europe will be linked with no borders and no immigration control once that happens.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Video is a bit useless because we can't tell what's going on, can't tell what the police are actually attempting to do, etc.

 

[Iliketobenaked]

Never seen that movie, maybe you should try better reasoning in politics than hollywood movie references. America have Muslim and other religious fanatics too, don't be naive.
Some short shakycam video with shouting fundies can't explain the situation in Britain. Useless thread.

ok let me explain what that movie is about it why it can become a reality.


Basically Muslim fanatics blow shit up U.S Government becomes paranoid and declares marshal law rounding up Arabs and Muslims and putting them in Camps.Just like with the Japanese in the 40's .And I don't have to explain why thats bad.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

ok let me explain what that movie is about it why it can become a reality.


Basically Muslim fanatics blow shit up U.S Government becomes paranoid and declares marshal law rounding up Arabs and Muslims and putting them in Camps.Just like with the Japanese in the 40's .And I don't have to explain why thats bad.

Now that you have explained what the movie is about. You actually think the US would round up all the Arabs and Muslims and put them in camps. Umm where else have i heard something like that, oh yeah Jews in concentration camps in Nazi Germany, indiscriminately rounding Jews up just cause they were Jews. Get real that won't happen Human Rights and other shit would stop it. We are in the 21st Century not the 1940s. What happened with the Japanese and the times we live in is totally different.

 

[Laivasse]

This seems to be pretty old, since the speaker (who I have a feeling I recognise?) is going on about Blair and Michael Howard, etc.

Few points:
1) The London Metropolitan police are scum who like to be heavyhanded and victimise people when it's easy to do so while they turn a blind eye to hate speech and marches like this, if stopping it means hassle and bad PR among certain sector of the community.

I'm reminded of some footage from Newsnight a couple of years back. It was during some of the more famous muslim protest marches in London - the 'Butcher Those Who Mock Islam!' etc. ones - in the wake of the Danish cartoons, and it featured a Met Police Officer talking to a van driver who was pulled up watching one such march. The van driver had the audacity to ask the police officer (very mildly) why he couldn't arrest the protesters or at least stop the march for the very blatant hate speech on the placards. At this the officer rounded on the van driver, swearing at the guy, ranting at him about how it was important not to cause a fuss and then threatening to arrest him.

The pathetic response to the march in the film doesn't surprise me, therefore. However it appears to have happened mainly because they've been caught by surprise and don't have enough men on the scene. If it was one unsavoury looking muslim and they'd had hundreds of police there, I'm sure they wouldn't have hesitated to bust in and shoot-first-ask-questions-later (just look at what happened in Forest Gate, cross ref. also murder of Jean Charles de Menezes).

2) This probably has very little to do with immigration/deportation/whatever. I'd wager that a lot of those guys are Londoners born and bred. They certainly sound it. I probably live within 10 minutes of that area btw... it too looks suspiciously familiar...

3) I like the way they say allah. OLL-LOOOOR!

EDIT: Found this in the comments of the blog the vid was sourced from -

'The ranter is Abu Izadeen, aka Omar Brooks.

'Muslim preacher' Abu Izadeen will spend no more that four and a half years in jail after being
convicted of supporting terrorism in London last month (April 2008). That jury, however, failed to reach a verdict on charges against him for encouraging terrorism.'

Note the very english surname? That's right, he was born in Hackney, East London, as Trevor Brooks. Immigration my arse. Wake up, guys. It's Islam that's the problem, not brown-skinned people.

 

[nurizeko]

British police need to start cracking some ****ing fundie heads.

The guy in the van is basically shouting abuse in a rageful voice I can only attribute the most blindest intent contempt ever, at everyone who isn't a Muslim, thats sick, and worst of all, in breech of laws that were brought in to apparently stop this hate speech shit.


The British bobbies were more then happy to smack about strikers a few decades ago, I reckon they can do it again if not so utterly passified by this idea offending hateful bile spitting Fundamentalists.

The thing is, if they are just a minority of Muslims, then they are a threat to all of us and British Muslims, and should be arrested and punished for the good of all citizens, if they really are somehow indicative of Islam as a whole, then its clearly not only an incredibly wrong religion, but a dangerous intolerant one and shouldn't be supported.


"Oh, Nuri, thats....religious intolerance!".

I know, but religion has done humanity no favours, dangerous political ideologies like fascism are shunned, so should some faiths if they can't learn to adapt to secular Britain.


But yeah, in that case the police should have got back-up, pushed in to take the ring leaders and cart them off for charges, its a standard police tactic during riots, and thats looking fairly hostile to me, peaceful protest implies being peaceable.

 

[Solaris]

Lavaise is bang on, it's Islam that's the problem.

I'm sad there's never any counter protests at these kinds of thing, if there is, it will be by racist bigots like the BNP. The people who should be opposing these islamo-facists are the left yet the vast majority of my socialist brothers would rather get in bed with radical Islam than stand out an oppose it, continuing the Lefts proud tradition of opposing fascism.

 

[Nemesis6]

God, don't you have any stones lying in London?

Edit: Well obviously not because then they would be throwing those at the kuffar, too.

 

[Sulkdodds]

God, don't you have any Stones lying in London?

Well, Brian Jones is buried in Cheltenham.

 

[nurizeko]

You'd think if these born and bred Muslims loved extreme Islam so much they'd go live in Saudi Arabia.

Its not even that they apparently hate everything we stand for and love medieval oppressive bigot religions, its that they feel compelled to bring it/keep it here.


Fine, you love your idea of Islam, fine you think I should die because your a raging scumbag who was fiddled by your parents as a kid I dunno, but if you love that interpretation of Islam so much and hate western values, why the **** are you still here???????.

THATS what bugs me about fundie Muslims, immigrants or natives.

Theres a whole wide world, and more then a fair share of it caters to your particular world view, go live there....



Laivasse has a good point though, but goes without saying, unless your BNP.

The problem is the religion, it seems to invite his kind of interpretation too easily.

Religious freedom blah blah blah but this type of Islam proves that perhaps eventually getting to the point that religion and religious beliefs are laughable at least and taboo at most is a good thing for everyone.

Some folk claim humanity needs some spiritual guidance and answers. I say humanity doesn't need to be lied to and humoured, if it gives these types of thugs an excuse.

 

[Laivasse]

I didn't intend to come off as saying that Islam is the sole bogeyman in this issue, since I'm all for freedom of religion. I actually think the problem is twofold. It lies partly with Islam for being such a hunk of shit. However it lies mainly with the current climate of debate in the UK and the feeble policies of the government. Religion is just ideology after all and (short of complete genocide) cannot be combatted with anything short of a stronger ideology.

I'm all for freedom of religion. Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are flipsides of the same coin, as I see it. Sure, institutionalised religion tends to foster people's most moronic facets, but I encounter many dangerously moronic non-religious people every day and see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to manifest their stupidity through their adherence to superstitious dogma, should they so wish. The point where this falls down is when criticism of that dogma stops being allowed. Criticism of religion is, after all, a matter of freedom of expression, and should be permitted by the same tenets which permit freedom of religion in the first place. The very freedoms which enable people to say 'I have a magic bearded lord in the sky who is very precious to me! He also hates you!' enable me at the same time to say 'I think your magic man is a c*nt.'

Generally, in matters unrelated to Islam, I think there is a healthy climate of religious criticism in the UK (perhaps even too much so, since the British populace is so lacking in any kind of spiritualism that it's lost its grasp entirely on other abstract concepts like 'honour', 'integrity', 'creativity'... even 'freedom', but that's another thread...). For instance, outspoken fundamentalist Christians in my experience tend to be met with cynicism, mockery and ridicule. Fundamentalist Islam in contrast tends to be met with fear, confusion and too much silence. And it's the current government (in tandem with the gutlessness of the secular populace in general, natch) that bears responsibility for this, by exacerbating the conflict in every imaginable way by:

• Angering the already irritable extremists with horrendous foreign policy decisions in the first place - of course to anger extremists is not a bad thing if you do it in the pursuit of something just, but if you do it needlessly, you only have yourself to blame.
• Trying to put in place measures which would silence legitimate criticism of Islam (see the Racial and Religious Hatred Act, which was initially tailored precisely so that Muslims could hide behind the sacrosanctity of their faith).
• Fostering a climate of debate which tends to discourage and deflect criticism of the Islamic faith, while encouraging muslims to ask for rights they don't have (ie. the ability to silence blasphemers), thusly inflaming tensions on both sides.
• All while simultaneously victimising muslims in general by creating an artificial climate of fear - eg. ineffective stop and search policies which piss off everyone and protect no one; John Reid's patronising speech telling muslim parents to rat out their children; attempts to introduce scary 90 day detention laws, claiming we need them because there's an islamofascist lurking in every bin; the demonstrable ability of the police to shoot a man for the colour of his skin, destroy and falsify evidence, lie to the public, and then be absolved of any wrongdoing. Muslims appear to be less worried about this than they are about insults to mother****ing allah however, so oh well.

Really, if the British government had created this situation deliberately you'd have to call them geniuses for the subtlety of their manoeuvring. So what does that make them for creating it accidentally...?

I'm sad there's never any counter protests at these kinds of thing, if there is, it will be by racist bigots like the BNP.

I'm put in mind of the protests in London against the Danish cartoons again. Iirc, that van driver I mentioned wasn't the only one rudely silenced. I also seem to recall that a couple of peaceful counterprotesters were ushered away by police for questioning before they caused too much of a scene.

There is an attitude, which has sadly become prevalent in much of Western society today, that says safety is paramount and should be prioritised at the expense of all else. This is what I think guides the Met (and the govt) into behaviour which is designed to KEEP THE PEACE THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING JUST DONT MAKE THEM ANGRY SHUTUPSHUTUP.
Safety is not paramount, though - liberty is *insert Ben Franklin quote*. SAFETY NOT GUARANTEED.

 

[Solaris]

Laivasse I agree 98% with what you said. The only issue I dispute is with regards to the governments recent ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan which I regard as noble ventures.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that the governments support of faith schools is only exasperating the problem. There should be no religion in schools and proper critical thinking skills should be taught until children can see for themselves how absurd religion is.

 

[Laivasse]

Tbh I can't comment much on faith schools since I have no idea about their curriculum, the way their particular faith is addressed in the lessons, etc...

I would be saying that they were a horrible idea by definition, except that I myself went to a Roman Catholic school and it wasn't all that bad - certainly not compared to other schools in the area. Of a couple of thousand kids in the school, I can count on the fingers of one mutilated hand how many I think ended up as practicing catholics in later life. The religion classes, too, covered details from all religions (surprisingly) and so it's possible that my peers ended up with a greater religious tolerance from going to a school which emphasised the teaching of religious values. The main drawback was that the teachers were all arrogant slime with superiority complexes, who thought they were divinely ordained by Christ.
(Incidentally, I take a dim view of institutionalised education anyway, just as I take a dim view of institutionalised religion. It's like trying to sculpt using only a sledgehammer. Most schooling as it stands tends to do little more than take 10-12 years out of someone's life in order to crush their spirit and teach them to be weaselling sycophants.)

But no I don't think that faith schools are inherently a bad thing, if every child's experience with them would be comparable to mine. If they are used as a tool of indoctrination, however - which, considering islamic values and practices, seems as if it could be likely - then no, they shouldn't be supported at all. A more segregated and alienated islamic community is the last thing either the islamic community or the secular community needs.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Safety is not paramount, though - liberty is *insert Ben Franklin quote*. SAFETY NOT GUARANTEED.

Astute analysis. I quote this bit specifically because I think Safety Not Guaranteed Man should be reappropriated as a symbol of political protest.

It's not just a haircut - it's a movement.

 

[Laivasse]

Oh yes.

I want big placards in Parliament Square proclaiming 'WE'VE ONLY DONE THIS ONCE BEFORE.'

 

[Iliketobenaked]

Now that you have explained what the movie is about. You actually think the US would round up all the Arabs and Muslims and put them in camps. Umm where else have i heard something like that, oh yeah Jews in concentration camps in Nazi Germany, indiscriminately rounding Jews up just cause they were Jews. Get real that won't happen Human Rights and other shit would stop it. We are in the 21st Century not the 1940s. What happened with the Japanese and the times we live in is totally different.

like I said,of course it's bad but they did the SAME thing with the Japanese.

 

[jverne]

first...don't pretend that you don't understand whats going on!

second...the speaker should be arrested immediately and deported.

third...the mob should be hunted down and done with the same as above

fourth...the police in my opinion would be allowed to use force to accomplish these tasks

 

[PimpinPenguin]

first...don't pretend that you don't understand whats going on!

second...the speaker should be arrested immediately and deported.

third...the mob should be hunted down and done with the same as above

fourth...the police in my opinion would be allowed to use force to accomplish these tasks

I agree 100%

The only problem is that the speaker may be British born as may the mob, so deportation is not an option.
The fact is the police can't use force otherwise it seems like we are picking on muslims.

like I said,of course it's bad but they did the SAME thing with the Japanese.

I know you did the same thing with the Japs, what i am saying it that you can't do it again. Times have changed you CANNOT and WILL NOT do the same to muslims. The USA is not immune to Human rights and other laws will will prevent you doing that.

 

[lame-o]

Now that you have explained what the movie is about. You actually think the US would round up all the Arabs and Muslims and put them in camps. Umm where else have i heard something like that, oh yeah Jews in concentration camps in Nazi Germany, indiscriminately rounding Jews up just cause they were Jews. Get real that won't happen Human Rights and other shit would stop it. We are in the 21st Century not the 1940s. What happened with the Japanese and the times we live in is totally different.

You wouldn't ****ing believe how civil people were in the 40's. Don't act like just cause it's the 21st century we evolved, because we didn't. People understood human rights just as well as they do now, but that won't stop shit when it comes down to it. You better believe there will be another manifestation of genocide/concentration camps/fascism in the future. The possibility of this has already been demonstrated with a social experiment in an American university in the late 60's.

 

[MiccyNarc]

Now that you have explained what the movie is about. You actually think the US would round up all the Arabs and Muslims and put them in camps. Umm where else have i heard something like that, oh yeah Jews in concentration camps in Nazi Germany, indiscriminately rounding Jews up just cause they were Jews. Get real that won't happen Human Rights and other shit would stop it. We are in the 21st Century not the 1940s. What happened with the Japanese and the times we live in is totally different.

Oh shut up. Humans will always be humans, we do stupid shit out of desperation, why the hell do you think the patriot act exists? We'd do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[el Chi]

Eventually Europe will be screwed once Turkey gets into Europe. And they will get into Europe as all the European leaders want an Islamic state in Europe. The Middle East and Europe will be linked with no borders and no immigration control once that happens.

Sorry - what? A great deal of what you've said makes very little sense.

You do know that there are lots and lots of Turkish immigrants living and working in the UK already, right?

Secondly, saying "They will get into Europe" is flippant to say the least. Turkey's been kept out of the EU for decades upon decades because of its dreadful human rights record. This is not something that will be forgottern easily and Turkey won't get into the EU unless they measure up.

Thirdly,"The Middle East and Europe...etc etc." makes no sense. You're talking of Turkey as some sort of Hadrian's Wall, keeping the hordes of Middle Eastern people on their side. Once again: you are aware that there are lots of Middle Eastern people living and working in the UK already, right?
How will Turkey becoming part of the EU change that?

Finally: there are lots of English-born people who scrounge off the welfare state and never do any work blah blah blah but people rarely seem to get as angry about them as they do with immigrants. It's almost as if pulling that scam's not so bad if you're screwing over your own country.

2) This probably has very little to do with immigration/deportation/whatever. I'd wager that a lot of those guys are Londoners born and bred. They certainly sound it. I probably live within 10 minutes of that area btw... it too looks suspiciously familiar...

EDIT: Found this in the comments of the blog the vid was sourced from -
Note the very english surname? That's right, he was born in Hackney, East London, as Trevor Brooks. Immigration my arse. Wake up, guys. It's Islam that's the problem, not brown-skinned people.

I'm hesitantly agreeing with Lavaisse on this one.
The majority, if not all, of the young Muslim men who've been arrested/tried on suspicion of terrorism lately have been British-born: immigration is not the problem.
Similarly, to say "Islam is the problem" is a massively misguided and unfair dilution of an immensely complex issue.

 

[<RJMC>]

that stuff is very frequent in the UK?

I am living in spain and there is a lot of muslin here but never saw something like that

 

[Laivasse]

Similarly, to say "Islam is the problem" is a massively misguided and unfair dilution of an immensely complex issue.

Well I did try to break it down further in my other post... Like I say, 'I didn't intend to come off as saying that Islam is the sole bogeyman in this issue.'

But yeah, to agree-with-you-agreeing-with-me: anyone who reflexively cries 'DEPORTATION!' when they see something like this needs to stop and realise how out of touch they are with the situation.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Oh shut up. Humans will always be humans, we do stupid shit out of desperation, why the hell do you think the patriot act exists? We'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I'm aware on how stupid humans are. But i just don't see the US setting up concentration camps for Muslims and Arabs in the US. I can see them bombing them,nuking them,torturing them sending them to Guantanamo Bay, but not concentration camps on home soil. I'm sure there will be Genocides, i'am not saying that now we are in the 21th century we are a lot smarter than in the 40s far from it if anything we've gone backwards.

Sorry - what? A great deal of what you've said makes very little sense.

You do know that there are lots and lots of Turkish immigrants living and working in the UK already, right?

Secondly, saying "They will get into Europe" is flippant to say the least. Turkey's been kept out of the EU for decades upon decades because of its dreadful human rights record. This is not something that will be forgottern easily and Turkey won't get into the EU unless they measure up.

Thirdly,"The Middle East and Europe...etc etc." makes no sense. You're talking of Turkey as some sort of Hadrian's Wall, keeping the hordes of Middle Eastern people on their side. Once again: you are aware that there are lots of Middle Eastern people living and working in the UK already, right?
How will Turkey becoming part of the EU change that?

Finally: there are lots of English-born people who scrounge off the welfare state and never do any work blah blah blah but people rarely seem to get as angry about them as they do with immigrants. It's almost as if pulling that scam's not so bad if you're screwing over your own country.


I'm hesitantly agreeing with Lavaisse on this one.
The majority, if not all, of the young Muslim men who've been arrested/tried on suspicion of terrorism lately have been British-born: immigration is not the problem.
Similarly, to say "Islam is the problem" is a massively misguided and unfair dilution of an immensely complex issue.

I'm aware that there are a lot of middle eastern people in the UK already, but once Turkey get into Europe we will lose all immigration control over them and they will all be free to come.
The UK is already seeing problems with this and are trying to increase how difficult it would be for people from the Middle East to immigrate here by making it stricter.

I see Turkey getting into Europe soon, they are desperate to get in and the majority of the European leaders want them and are trying to get them in. They don't want Turkey joining Syria etc...
The main difference i see with Turkey is that they are fast become a Muslim controlled state and i find that worrying and i don't think that will go well with Europe. But perhaps i am overreacting, just have to wait and see.

Finally: What i was trying to say is that our immigration control should prevent people coming here who are just intending to leech of us. Either be productive or don't let them in. I was not blaming immigrants and i'am aware that we are way to easy on English-born people who can't be assed working and just want to live of benefits, they are by far a lot worse than the immigrants.

On the Deportation front all i was saying that Asylum seekers who come here to preach hatred and incite and support terrorism should get deported they should not take our protection for granted.We have enough home grown problem already last thing we need is more coming.

 

[Kula Meenur]

Never seen that movie, maybe you should try better reasoning in politics than hollywood movie references. America have Muslim and other religious fanatics too, don't be naive.
Some short shakycam video with shouting fundies can't explain the situation in Britain. Useless thread.

concur

/thread