British troops attack children

[Solaris]

Children who just tried to kill people do deserve to have the shit kicked out of them.

So its all right to kick the shit out of prisoners of war? Or just children?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

So its all right to kick the shit out of prisoners of war? Or just children?

Just children.

Don't patronize me, you know exactly what happened here, there's no defending the kids. What the soldiers did wasn't good/right either, but nothing to be condemned from. I fully empathize with that in their situation and probably would've done the same thing in their position.

 

[Solaris]

Just children.

Don't patronize me, you know exactly what happened here, there's no defending the kids. What the soldiers did wasn't good/right either, but nothing to be condemned from. I fully empathize with that in their situation and probably would've done the same thing in their position.

Oh I defend the kids fully, I don't support the beating of Prisoners of War however. There must have been officers around, we see like 15 soldiers walk past the beatings and do nothing.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Oh I defend the kids fully, I don't support the beating of Prisoners of War however. There must have been officers around, we see like 15 soldiers walk past the beatings and do nothing.

If you defend the kids fully there is nothing more to say. You're warped.

 

[Solaris]

If you defend the kids fully there is nothing more to say. You're warped.

If I defend the rights of a people to resist an occupier that kills indiscriminatly I'm warped?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

If I defend the rights of a people to resist an occupier that kills indiscriminatly I'm warped?

You're warped to think that's the situation.

 

[Some_God]

If I defend the rights of a people to resist an occupier that kills indiscriminatly I'm warped?

This statement is along the same lines as Holocaust denial.

 

[Pajari]

If I defend the rights of a people to resist an occupier that kills indiscriminatly I'm warped?

You're defending the rights of kids to lob grenades and rocks at armed soldiers in the middle of a warzone. Good luck with that case, cheif. Also, you have an extremely loose definition of "indiscriminately".

It's a shame that someone died resisting the imperialist machine. But then again it would have been a shame for a young soldier to die after being orderd by the machine to fight.

The bigger shame here is that you have no idea what you're talking about. The imperialist machine is getting less oil out of Iraq than it was beforehand, and in case you hadn't noticed, gas prices are up after the invasion. And Britain and the US have all vollunteer armed forces. No one is getting drafted, everybody is there because they signed up to serve their country, something that I admit you probably will never understand.

Kids throwing grenades at soldiers and lobbing rocks because they don't expect anything to happen are not noble heroes of guerilla warfare, but stupid jackasses that should have expected a volley of bullets in lieu of a beating (not saying its right, but they got off relatively easy for what amounts to attempted murder). What would you say if someone threw a grenade at Chavez? Is that person part of this mythical legitimate national liberation organization, or an imperialist lackey?

The western forces want control of Iraq badly, and employ brutal oppresionist tactics to ensure their control of the region.

The western forces want out of Iraq as soon as possible. Also, is the most liberal constitution ever drafted in a Middle Eastern country part of the west's "brutal oppressionist tactics"? How about the first democratically elected government of Iraq, ever? Where is your ridiculous by-the-numbers Marxist rhetoric in the face of the region's fairest democracy besides Israel and Afghanistan?

The resistance is a national liberation movement and is thus justified to use violence.

Are you being sarcastic? This is the most ridiculous collection of pseudo-Maoist tripe I've ever seen in my life. Just because you think the "resistance" is attempting to create a new government, you think they're justified in playing with other people's lives? No amount of "national liberation" is going to change the fact that the insurgents are heinous, brutal criminals that show no moral qualms about blowing up dozens of completely innocent people.

Sorry to everyone else for so completely biting down on a troll's bait, but I had to do it.

 

[Lemonking]

pajariwnt!

nice post pajari

 

[Venmoch]

Please note that this is not an opinion but an observation (Even so I'll probably get flamed six ways from Sunday..)

I take it everyones bearing in mind these soldiers are a group of people kept in a constant state of readyness not to mention that being aggressive is a rather large part of the job. Is it any suprise that stuff like this happens? These guys aren't policemen.

I'm not defending them or anything. Just thought I'd let that thought out.

 

[MiccyNarc]

About the voice-over:
I get the impression that crap like this (kids throwing crap at soldiers) occurs on a daily basis, and he's glad that he finally sees retribution.

Not at all surprising, and the little pieces of crap deserved it. If I were to throw a grenade at a police officer, I can expect to get the crap beaten out of me, and I'd deserve it.

 

[Direwolf]

Please note that this is not an opinion but an observation (Even so I'll probably get flamed six ways from Sunday..)

I take it everyones bearing in mind these soldiers are a group of people kept in a constant state of readyness not to mention that being aggressive is a rather large part of the job. Is it any suprise that stuff like this happens? These guys aren't policemen.

I'm not defending them or anything. Just thought I'd let that thought out.

Quite right. The army is not a scalpal, it is a sledgehammer. Too many politicians and pundits fail to see the difference.

 

[Raziaar]

That violence is pretty excessive, I gotta say. The cameraman's comments are distasteful. If it were any other situation besides a serious one, I would laugh, but that guy sounds like a lunatic. Not the type of person who should be in the area.

 

[Llama]

Ithey had no defence,

Well not after they threw a ****ing grenade, no.

Meh, they should have opened fire and simply killed them.

The cameraman is :|...though

 

[jverne]

as far as i understand, they were triald for atempted murder after that? so why also beat them?

 

[Solaris]

This statement is along the same lines as Holocaust denial.

Stfu. How many children have been killed by Us Bombs? Probably more than a thousand, but I don't have time to find the stats right now.
And Parij, I'll argue the whole - Iraq is better of now than it was before case later, gotta tidy my room

 

[gick]

Stfu. How many children have been killed by Us Bombs? Probably more than a thousand, but I don't have time to find the stats right now.
And Parij, I'll argue the whole - Iraq is better of now than it was before case later, gotta tidy my room

But do the US forces think to themselves 'Hmm, I think today, im going to go kill some children!'? No they do not.

Do the insurgents think to themselves 'Today, I will serve Allah by blowing up a market while hundreds of men women and children are out doing their shopping'? Yes, they probably do.

This is the difference between the occupation forces, and the insurgency. The occupiers may kill lots of innocents, but it is at best by accident, and at its worst through negligence. The insurgents on the other hand, will deliberatley go out to kill as many innocent civilians as possible because they blindly follow an interpretation of their religion.

Not that I want to insult you in any way, but when I was 15 or so I was just like you (which is why I refrain from flaming you every time you come out with a heap of bullshit). To me, the US was the source of all the world's problems, I belived that the workers of the world should rise up, yada yada yada. But then I realized that the world isn't black and white, there are far worse places/systems in the world than that of the US, and that Islamic terrorism is not some kind of mass movement to free the world from the yoke of capitalist opression, but rather a fundamentally abhorrent, dangerous and evil group of total bastards.

Dude, if you want people to take you seriously, then apply the same set of moral standards to both sides in the conflict, as opposed to outright condemning one and ignoring the faults of the other.

 

[ComradeBadger]

But do the US forces think to themselves 'Hmm, I think today, im going to go kill some children!'? No they do not.

Do the insurgents think to themselves 'Today, I will serve Allah by blowing up a market while hundreds of men women and children are out doing their shopping'? Yes, they probably do.

This is the difference between the occupation forces, and the insurgency. The occupiers may kill lots of innocents, but it is at best by accident, and at its worst through negligence. The insurgents on the other hand, will deliberatley go out to kill as many innocent civilians as possible because they blindly follow an interpretation of their religion.

Not that I want to insult you in any way, but when I was 15 or so I was just like you (which is why I refrain from flaming you every time you come out with a heap of bullshit). To me, the US was the source of all the world's problems, I belived that the workers of the world should rise up, yada yada yada. But then I realized that the world isn't black and white, there are far worse places/systems in the world than that of the US, and that Islamic terrorism is not some kind of mass movement to free the world from the yoke of capitalist opression, but rather a fundamentally abhorrent, dangerous and evil group of total bastards.

Dude, if you want people to take you seriously, then apply the same set of moral standards to both sides in the conflict, as opposed to outright condemning one and ignoring the faults of the other.

I've never done this before but:

QFT.

 

[Ome_Vince]

But do the US forces think to themselves 'Hmm, I think today, im going to go kill some children!'? No they do not.

Do the insurgents think to themselves 'Today, I will serve Allah by blowing up a market while hundreds of men women and children are out doing their shopping'? Yes, they probably do.

This is the difference between the occupation forces, and the insurgency. The occupiers may kill lots of innocents, but it is at best by accident, and at its worst through negligence. The insurgents on the other hand, will deliberatley go out to kill as many innocent civilians as possible because they blindly follow an interpretation of their religion.

Not that I want to insult you in any way, but when I was 15 or so I was just like you (which is why I refrain from flaming you every time you come out with a heap of bullshit). To me, the US was the source of all the world's problems, I belived that the workers of the world should rise up, yada yada yada. But then I realized that the world isn't black and white, there are far worse places/systems in the world than that of the US, and that Islamic terrorism is not some kind of mass movement to free the world from the yoke of capitalist opression, but rather a fundamentally abhorrent, dangerous and evil group of total bastards.

Dude, if you want people to take you seriously, then apply the same set of moral standards to both sides in the conflict, as opposed to outright condemning one and ignoring the faults of the other.

Agree
"The highest trees catch the most wind"

 

[Solaris]

But do the US forces think to themselves 'Hmm, I think today, im going to go kill some children!'? No they do not.

Your right, most of them have no intent of killing children and civillians, but they die all the same.

For instance in the seige of fallujah, 600 people were killed mostly women, children and the elderly.
Source
Its doesn't matter if they intended to kill them or not, the fact is that they were killed by US snipers, soldiers and bombs.

Do the insurgents think to themselves 'Today, I will serve Allah by blowing up a market while hundreds of men women and children are out doing their shopping'? Yes, they probably do.

No they don't, the majority of insurgents don't target civillians, just look at the latest to die.

police patrol
family menbers, including Sahib Amin, member of Shiite SCIRI
police patrol
police patrol
police protecting electricty facility near hospital
Colonel Mahdi Mutlak , Baghdad's police training director
policeman in restaurant
police commando patrol
source

But all you hear about from fox news is when civillians are killed en mass, when in reality the US kills more civillians than the insurgents.

This is the difference between the occupation forces, and the insurgency. The occupiers may kill lots of innocents, but it is at best by accident, and at its worst through negligence. The insurgents on the other hand, will deliberatley go out to kill as many innocent civilians as possible because they blindly follow an interpretation of their religion.

By accident? They don't target civillians maybe, but they sure as hell don't care if they get killed. The coallition has gone beyound accidental, beyound careless, beyound reckless to just not giving a s**t who they kill.
And the insurgents don't target civillians at all, a few extremists do, but look at the database. There is alot of hatred amonst different religious groops in Iraq, and alot of violence between these groups is happening becuase of the breakdown of law and order due to the invasion.

Not that I want to insult you in any way, but when I was 15 or so I was just like you (which is why I refrain from flaming you every time you come out with a heap of bullshit). To me, the US was the source of all the world's problems, I belived that the workers of the world should rise up, yada yada yada. But then I realized that the world isn't black and white, there are far worse places/systems in the world than that of the US, and that Islamic terrorism is not some kind of mass movement to free the world from the yoke of capitalist opression, but rather a fundamentally abhorrent, dangerous and evil group of total bastards.

Your wrong, the insurgency arn't made up of Islamic fanatics, sure they're Muslims, but they're not fighting for Islam,. they're fighting to free Iraq.

Dude, if you want people to take you seriously, then apply the same set of moral standards to both sides in the conflict, as opposed to outright condemning one and ignoring the faults of the other.

I am condeming the killing of any civillains who ever does it, and I've said this hundreds of times. There are fanatics and evil people in the insurgency, as the insurgency isn't an organised thing, It's a term applied to anyone who fights in Iraq, be it becuase they want ethnic cleansing, or to kick out the US.

 

[Razor]

No they don't, the majority of insurgents don't target civillians, just look at the latest to die.

police patrol
family menbers, including Sahib Amin, member of Shiite SCIRI
police patrol
police patrol
police protecting electricty facility near hospital
Colonel Mahdi Mutlak , Baghdad's police training director
policeman in restaurant
police commando patrol

So they're not all targetting civilian's but targetting the people that are trying to keep the peace and protect the civilians and shut down electricity supplies to hospitals who are most probably understaffed and underequipped as it was.

 

[Direwolf]

That and the fact that usually policemen are considered civilians.

 

[Eg.]

And tha fact that bombs dont stop once they kill cops, the blast also tends to have something called a "blast raduis", which will also hit civvies nearby, thus racking up civilian deaths even if the targets were police.

With the brits, I think they did go a little overboard, but they were justified. Its one thing to have a bomb go off while on patrol, and then being ambushed, but to have kids, act as if they are invincible, while throwing rocks and grenades at you is completely different. These kids are very lucky that they were not shot when they were throwing rocks, and Ill explain why: The brits took the time to really go to town on these kids, and that shows a ton of pent up rage. Thankfully they just batoned them a little bit, and didnt mow them down.

 

[Ome_Vince]

The reason so many civilians die, is simply because in these types of "wars", there is no line between a soldier - civilian...
Simple as that. Geneva convention states it should always remain clear what is a soldier and what not, so harm will not be drawn to civilians.
If there are armed civilians shooting at soldiers, hiding in mosques, you can be dam sure fire will shift to include civilians to..

Its the simple principle of a conventional army vs armed civilians. When the opponent even arms kids, and uses so called "pregnant women" to blow themselves up at checkpoints blowing up Iraqi security forces ( to create anarchy and destabelise their OWN government ), then its only logical the conventional army will look-out for civilians, and many accidents/conflicts will happen..

The Geneva convention wasnt written for jack shit, it explains and forbids alot of these issues which you cant simply blame America for...

The insurgents dressing up like civilians, hiding amongst women, fleeing into mosques with children around, using children and women for combat, are at least just as responsible for their deaths as the coalition army..

 

[Solaris]

That and the fact that usually policemen are considered civilians.

Not over there, they have big AKs, and torture people. 1,000 a month to death.

 

[baron insig]

i think, the kids got what they deserved,

if u walk down the street, with a bag of bricks and start hitting police officers around the head, they are guoing to smack you about with there batons to restrain you,

and then you get trialed by the legal system

where is the iraq legal system?

no where

so the kids got the beating, sliglhty more brutally, and then what?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Not over there, they have big AKs, and torture people. 1,000 a month to death.

Wow do you realize from your other thread that a huge number of the 1000 figure are from insurgent groups torturing people and using summary executions?

 

[Solaris]

Wow do you realize from your other thread that a huge number of the 1000 figure are from insurgent groups torturing people and using summary executions?

Militants who had infiltrated the Police, much like the Warlords in Afgansistan.

if u walk down the street, with a bag of bricks and start hitting police officers around the head, they are guoing to smack you about with there batons to restrain you,

Did you see any of thoose kids throw grenades? And you support corperal punishment as well then?

 

[baron insig]

in that situation solaris' what would you do,

youve spent weeks in a country you woudl much rather not be in

and you have to deal with kids everyday throwing rocks at you

if that coudl all go away by winging a few grenades, wouldnt you ?

 

[Solaris]

in that situation solaris' what would you do,
youve spent weeks in a country you woudl much rather not be in
and you have to deal with kids everyday throwing rocks at you
if that coudl all go away by winging a few grenades, wouldnt you ?

I wouldn't be in that situation. If I did find myself inlisted I would refuse to serve, or at least like to think I would.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Here's what I'll say on it:

Overall, the kids throwing gernades were asking for there lives to be wasted in that very moment. I don't care who you are and how old you might be, try to kill or wound me in combat and expect the same return treatment.

As for the beatings, terrible themselves but I think an ass kicking was a better lesson then perhaps the taking of their lives. The only two things I disagree with those soldiers on is this;

The beatings went a tiny bit far.
The arrests should've happened much earlier.

The western forces want control of Iraq badly, and employ brutal oppresionist tactics to ensure their control of the region.

Umm, some of their people snap and do horrible things yes, but the Insurgents go far and beyond just snapping. More like slowly cutting off the heads of people.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The rules of engagement state that when domenstrators and enemy combatants like that pose a deadly threat to you i.e. are throwing grenades and shooting, then you can retaliate with effective fire. However, whilst the kids were getting beat up, they weren't a threat to anyone, so it was an illegal action. It doesn't matter that the kids had thrown grenades at you, because you beat them up when they were unarmed and posed no threat, thats why it was wrong.

Nothing more needs to be said really.

Right answer.

The soldiers aren't police, but their job is to act like police.
This beating is a failure on all accounts, regardless of how much the suspects 'deserved' it or how sad and depressed the soldiers were from DOING THEIR JOBS.

Dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession but you don't see any of them jerking off while violently de-toothing an unruly patient.

 

[Raziaar]

Dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession but you don't see any of them jerking off while violently de-toothing an unruly patient.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan01/suicide.html

 

[Ome_Vince]

Right answer.

The soldiers aren't police, but their job is to act like police.
This beating is a failure on all accounts, regardless of how much the suspects 'deserved' it or how sad and depressed the soldiers were from DOING THEIR JOBS.

Dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession but you don't see any of them jerking off while violently de-toothing an unruly patient.

Lets make a difference between:
1-Was it justified to beat-up the kids
2-Was it "understandable" and were the kids "lucky"

imo:
1: not justified to beat-up kids after they are no longer a threat. However they should be punished, trialed or whatever

2: Yes, its understandable and the kids were lucky they werent shot (considering the claims of them throwing a grenade are true... -> in the case of just a stone -> my Nr2 = also false )..

 

[Solaris]

What the f**k, I just saw that with sound on, and its terrible.

They're begging for them to stop beating them and they continue, and the guy makes fun of there beggings.

And what grenade? I don't see one. And did one of thoose kids through a grenade? Thats awful. How can anyone say they deserved that? Thoose soldiers should be shot.

 

[Raziaar]

What the f**k, I just saw that with sound on, and its terrible.

They're begging for them to stop beating them and they continue, and the guy makes fun of there beggings.

And what grenade? I don't see one. And did one of thoose kids through a grenade? Thats awful. How can anyone say they deserved that? Thoose soldiers should be shot.

No, they shouldn't be shot. They should be punished.

Why do you so vehemently oppose violence against certain groups, and support violence against others? The violence is terrible on all fronts.

 

[Solaris]

No, they shouldn't be shot. They should be punished.

Why do you so vehemently oppose violence against certain groups, and support violence against others? The violence is terrible on all fronts.

No, they shouldn't be shot. I was just angry then.

 

[Sheikah42]

I know they probably deserved it... but nevertheless what those soldiers did was wrong- that is not the way to punish kids, or anybody for that matter. This is completely unprofesional and criminal.

I hate how people are always defending "kids." A kid that will suicide bomb my innocent family isn't ****ing innocent. Age doesn't make anyone innocent. Those "kids" deserved what they got. They should be thankful I wasn't there.

 

[Solaris]

I hate how people are always defending "kids." A kid that will suicide bomb my innocent family isn't ****ing innocent. Age doesn't make anyone innocent. Those "kids" deserved what they got. They should be thankful I wasn't there.

What the f**k for?

What did thoose 2/3 kids do? Tell me. And your also saying there that its alright to beat prisoner of war. And I suppose if you were there you would have beat there heads in whilst they were restrained and already half beaten to death. How hard are you.

 

[Sheikah42]

What did thoose 2/3 kids do? Tell me. And your also saying there that its alright to beat prisoner of war. And I suppose if you were there you would have beat there heads in whilst they were restrained and already half beaten to death. How hard are you.

What did those 2/3 kids do? Rocks/Grenade being thrown. You think those soldiers are enjoying their lives over there? Waking up every morning at 0400 to guard a post, not knowing whether they're gonna be sniped by some random insurgent. Not knowing whether they're gonna walk by a car loaded with explosives. Have you been to the middle east? Do you know how dangerous it is? Do you think anyone is happy over there? I don't know, you may just be a typical democratic liberal who is pro abortion yet at the same time calls our military "baby killers."

The last thing anyone wants, are rocks and grenades being thrown at them. "But no! They're kids! They should have the right to throw rocks and grenades! They should have the right to strap bombs to their chest and kill innocent shiite/sonne muslims! They should have the right to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent jewish families! They're young! That makes them totally innocent! Allah is great! Bis'Mil A' Rah' Mon' A' Rahim!"

I think the coalition needs to be tougher. I think that the insurgent prisoners of abu graib who plot plans to kill innocent families should get the living shit kicked out of them instead of just 8 nude photos and a picture with a dog barking at some guy looking like he's about to cry.

Or maybe we should've just forced them to watch Britney Spears for a good 45 minutes straight. That should fix them.

I doubt they showed their headless victims any mercy.