Buddhism

[mchammer75040]

Yes godron thats exactly what Im saying, are you saying Im arguing something different? Like I said I dont believe in reincarnation and Im not particularly religious.

 

[WacK]

I'm a buddhist and i like it.

 

[lePobz]

They do enjoy a very simple lifestyle though. The one thing that stresses me out these days is the overcomplication of absolutely everything.

 

[Cormeh]

The one thing that stresses me out these days is the overcomplication of absolutely everything.

And then some. Amen, brotha.

 

[Absinthe]

I have a fleeting admiration with the philosophical aspects Buddhism, but the mysticism is what gets me. I guess you could just sort of take it or leave it, but whenever a belief set starts talking about re-incarnation, I grow a tad wary.

I also echo what Sulkdodds posted. And I personally find it to be rather bleak. Why would one want to eliminate suffering? I know that seems to demand an obvious answer, but I believe suffering itself is what helps shape a person and makes him or her a little wiser. Sometimes the only way to gain fulfillment is good, hard work. The kind that tries and tests you, maybe makes you a little insane for a bit. But at the end of the ordeal, you come out satisfied, fulfilled, confident, and even proud. Sometimes a tragedy or something similarly unfair befalls somebody. But is it better to be blissfully ignorant to it instead of facing it's pain and striving to overcome it?

I just don't understand why somebody would want to sever themselves from want. Where's the spice? Where's the fun? But more importantly, why would you want to deny yourself the abundance of worldly experiences available? Why would you do away with your aspirations and rob yourself of the feeling of success and ecstatic victory? Sure, you might be more happy to resign yourself with doing away with want. But do you think you'd really live a truly worthwhile life that way?

I guess I just can't wrap my head around that? In the big sandbox that is the universe as we know of it (and as we don't know of it), I can't fathom cutting myself off to my one little corner. That seems cheap and somewhat of a cop-out to avoid life's trials and tribulations.

 

[tibetanpunk]

Something has been troubling me lately. I've been studying Buddhism in RE for about a year now, and... whenever I think about it, the logical conclusion I always come to is that we should all become Buddhists.

For those who don't know:

Spoiler

Buddhism is basically the belief that suffering can be all but eliminated, or a least massively reduced, by the removal of craving. The concept as I understand it is simple: don't want anything or get attached to anything, and you will be happy. Strangely, it seems to work; all the Buddhists I've seen are very happy, dispite owning very few possetions (the monks at least). Also, they're very kind, gentle people, because one the core teachings of Buddhism is morality. There is no God in Buddhism (the Buddha was a man), the only supernatural concepts are reincarnation and Nirvana, a deathless, painless place outside of the wheel of re-birth which is often described rather... nebulously.

It's the renouncing of craving that I have trouble with. Despite its effectiveness, it always struck me as bloody depressing. If you were to renouce craving altogether, it would be like: Half-Life2? Forget it. Relationships? Forget it. Adventure? Forget it. Aspirations for a decent job? Forget it. Aspirations for anything except happiness? Forget it. That's the kind of lifestyle a Buddhist monk would live. To them, everyone else has a life of ups and downs. Their life is just a massive up. I can complain about how boring a constantly happy life would be as much as I want, but I bet I wouldn't do if I really was depressed.

So yeah... basically I wondered if anyone here could convince me that we shouldn't all become hardcore Buddhists. I'm kind of hoping someone here will have a really simple and obvious reason that will make me look like an idiot.

No one has to 'become' buddhist in the sense of joining a particular sect or religion.
If the teachings of the Buddha make sense to you and agree with your reasoning then put them into practice and deepen your experience of the truth of them and don't worry about meaningless labels.
You absolutely do not have to go and live in a cave somewhere or become a monk to practice buddhist principals...In fact, it is probably a bad idea to do so...
With buddhism there is the danger of your view becoming nihilistic from misunderstanding key terms such as 'emptiness', which does not mean that you do not exist, it simply means that you are empty of any seperate existence, that you exist in relationship to everything else that appears to exist...
The most important thing is to practice compassion, to become more aware and be mindful of your attachments (cravings) that bring you (or the people around you) suffering and then choose not to do whatever that is anymore.
There is no requirement to become buddhism to see the reasoning and sense that underlies it.:cheers:

 

[tibetanpunk]

If re-incarnation were true, then the number of living organisms at any point in history should be constant, it's not.

The universe is a very, very big place.
I can't remember who said this but they said
"It is no stranger that I would turn up alive several times than it is that I turned up this once"
For the record, buddhists believe in rebirth, not reincarnation. There is a difference.
It can be explained like this...
The view of reincarnation is like a pearl necklace with each pearl viewed as a lifetime and the string that travels through them is like the idea of a soul that travels from one life to the next.
The buddhist view of rebirth is based on causes and conditions and can be explained more like a stack of dice sitting one on top of the other. There is no fixed identity in the buddhist view, everything is always changing and always under the influences of causes and conditions.
If you could say there was a soul, you would not say the soul is contained within the body, you would say that the body is contained within the soul and to give 'it' characteristics would be meaningless because it is beyond our dualistic perceptions and coneptualisation. It is beyond being and non-being..It is uncreated, yet it cannot be said to not exist.

 

[Godron]

No one has to 'become' buddhist in the sense of joining a particular sect or religion.
If the teachings of the Buddha make sense to you and agree with your reasoning then put them into practice and deepen your experience of the truth of them and don't worry about meaningless labels.
You absolutely do not have to go and live in a cave somewhere or become a monk to practice buddhist principals...In fact, it is probably a bad idea to do so...
With buddhism there is the danger of your view becoming nihilistic from misunderstanding key terms such as 'emptiness', which does not mean that you do not exist, it simply means that you are empty of any seperate existence, that you exist in relationship to everything else that appears to exist...
The most important thing is to practice compassion, to become more aware and be mindful of your attachments (cravings) that bring you (or the people around you) suffering and then choose not to do whatever that is anymore.
There is no requirement to become buddhism to see the reasoning and sense that underlies it.:cheers:

I was talking specifically about giving up craving, really. I'm not really concerned about the other supernatural theories, seeing as they don't affect me much and don't seem to have much evidence. Do you think that craving is the root of all suffering, and that all suffering can be eliminated along with craving? I mean, that's in the four nobel truths, isn't it? Surely there are ways to be happy other than getting rid of craving and basically not caring any more. Or do you mean that we should just be careful of excessive craving, the kind that is never satisfied, like the constant desire for more money?

The universe is a very, very big place.
I can't remember who said this but they said
"It is no stranger that I would turn up alive several times than it is that I turned up this once"
For the record, buddhists believe in rebirth, not reincarnation. There is a difference.
It can be explained like this...
The view of reincarnation is like a pearl necklace with each pearl viewed as a lifetime and the string that travels through them is like the idea of a soul that travels from one life to the next.
The buddhist view of rebirth is based on causes and conditions and can be explained more like a stack of dice sitting one on top of the other. There is no fixed identity in the buddhist view, everything is always changing and always under the influences of causes and conditions.
If you could say there was a soul, you would not say the soul is contained within the body, you would say that the body is contained within the soul and to give 'it' characteristics would be meaningless because it is beyond our dualistic perceptions and coneptualisation. It is beyond being and non-being..It is uncreated, yet it cannot be said to not exist.

I never understood how there could be re-birth if there is no specific soul or person to be re-born. Unless you mean that the specific soul or person is always changing.

 

[tibetanpunk]

I was talking specifically about giving up craving, really. I'm not really concerned about the other supernatural theories, seeing as they don't affect me much and don't seem to have much evidence. Do you think that craving is the root of all suffering, and that all suffering can be eliminated along with craving? I mean, that's in the four nobel truths, isn't it? Surely there are ways to be happy other than getting rid of craving and basically not caring any more. Or do you mean that we should just be careful of excessive craving, the kind that is never satisfied, like the constant desire for more money?



I never understood how there could be re-birth if there is no specific soul or person to be re-born. Unless you mean that the specific soul or person is always changing.

1st noble truth: Suffering exists in the universe, you can observe suffering all around you and often in yourself, it is a part of life.

2nd noble truth: There is a reason why people suffer, namely that people hold on to things as if they will last forever (people, possesions, power, beliefs) but in reality everything is in a continual state of change (has a Half life ), things are impermanent by their very nature.
Not understanding this, people grasp at the things they crave the most and ultimately lose them and this creates suffering.

3rd noble truth: Because all things are continually changing, this means that suffering is also impermanent.

4th noble truth: By practicing the 8 fold path you can actively reduce suffering in your life and the lives of those around you.

The 8 fold path consists of the practice of:
1. Right view
2. Right intentions.
3. Right speech.
4. Right action.
5. Right livelihood.
6. Right effort.
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration.

'Right' in this context is whatever creates less suffering in life as opposed to creating more through ignorance and self centered, obsessive, habitual patterns of behaviour which are caused by what you are calling 'craving'.

You don't have to give everything away to be happy, you can be happy with an abundance of wealth, love, sex, money, power etc....You should love all of these things, but not so much that you are willing to create suffering for others to get it...

The concept of rebirth is in agreement with science. Energy cannot be destroyed, it just changes form according to cause and effect.
Say you have a bit of paper and you burn it...You did not destroy the 'paper', you simply caused it to change its form. It is 'reborn' as nutrients that get obsorbed into the soil in the form of ash, it is 'reborn' as gas, heat etc...In the same way the paper was once a seed that became a tree and that seed came from another tree and so on...
That everything is inseperably connected is observably true and not without scientific basis.
Nothing can exist seperately from anything else. It would be impossible to have any existence at all as there would be no context for it to exist or be known within. This is also not without scientific backing and good reasoning. It is not really esoteric but it is pretty far out...

Here is a great Albert Einstein quote on Buddhism:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

Ask me whatever questions you want, I am happy to discuss this with you and will try to answer whatever question you have.
I study/practice buddhism and meditation and have done for several years now, but I am reluctant to call myself a buddhist, I don't feel or see the need...I would rather be a Buddha. :afro:

 

[theotherguy]

Buddhism comes across to me as a "self-help" sort of religion.

But I don't consider it any more plausible than any of the numerous "get yourself healthy!" or "get rich quick!" schemes that plauge the modern world.

It's just another method exploiting the superstitious aspirations of people. It simply creates mystical dogma to explain away the biological impact of meditation and contemplation.

I believe it is possible to improve one's mood and health without referring to superstitious, mystical bullshit. Self-improvement should be attained through methods based in solid biology and psychology, not on religious dogma, mystic monks, or ridiculous rituals.

Though, like Einstein, I far prefer a cosmic, mystical religion like buddhism or pantheism, or even deism to the monotheistic and polytheistic religions so prevalent in the western world. Besides, as buddhists become more and more fanatic, they become more and more peaceful and harmless, while if a Christian or Muslim becomes more and more fanatical, he or she is likely to become violent.

 

[Seagull]

The only thing I agree with on Buddhism is basically "No desire, no suffering!"

Otherwise I'm not much of a fan D:

 

[tibetanpunk]

Well, the less 'mystical' elements of buddhism emphasise improving yourself for your own benefit and the more 'mystical' elements emphasise improving yourself for the benefit of everyone.
The Dalai lama being a person who practices the latter variety of buddhism is not fan of fanaticism, fundamentalism and blind religious faith based on dogma. No buddhist school of thought encourages blind faith and the like. If they do, they are more lilely some kind of pseudo-buddhist cult, which I am sure does happen.
The Dalai lama was asked once by Carl Sagan,
'If science could prove that there was no such thing as reincarnation, what would you do?'
and the Dalai lama replied, 'I would send out the message to all of my buddhist brothers and sisters that this was the case and we would ment our error...'
Then he added 'How would you go about proving that reincarnation is not true?'
Carl Sagan was silent.
Saying it is just some 'mystical bullshit' is just opinion and opinion that is rather mis-informed. There is a vast wealth of recorded evidence to support reicarnation/rebirth and also life after death through people being clinically dead for long periods of time and coming back to life with full memory of what transpired. These cases are well documented by well respected psychologists etc.
The problem now days seems to be that many people refuse to look at the evidence and claim that they already know the truth of a situation, even science is guilty of this...This is the modern equivilent of religious dogma within the sceptical community.
If a person has a spiritual experience, an enlightening experience and they used a specific method to achieve that result and then shared that method with other people who then practiced it and found they achieved the same result and so on...This as far as I am concerned is a valid science of the mind.
If people refuse to put a method into practice because of their scientific dogma and need for everything to be objective (can you even prove the mind exists? Where is it? What is it?) and fail to prove it for themselves in their own direct experience and call it untrue...It is only untrue because they have not chosen to make it true within tehir own experience.

 

[Ennui]

I have nothing but respect for Buddhism.

I may practice one day if I can slow myself down enough.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Saying it is just some 'mystical bullshit' is just opinion and opinion that is rather mis-informed. There is a vast wealth of recorded evidence to support reicarnation/rebirth and also life after death through people being clinically dead for long periods of time and coming back to life with full memory of what transpired. These cases are well documented by well respected psychologists etc.

Hahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahah. There are also people who have claimed to see heaven. If you believe people who claim to have seen past lives, you have to be believe people who have seen heaven (supposdly) lest you be a hypocryt.

 

[Jintor]

I suppose it becomes an issue of faith, then.

 

[Absinthe]

Saying it is just some 'mystical bullshit' is just opinion and opinion that is rather mis-informed. There is a vast wealth of recorded evidence to support reicarnation/rebirth and also life after death through people being clinically dead for long periods of time and coming back to life with full memory of what transpired. These cases are well documented by well respected psychologists etc.

...and then you dropped this.

 

[tibetanpunk]

Hahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahah. There are also people who have claimed to see heaven. If you believe people who claim to have seen past lives, you have to be believe people who have seen heaven (supposdly) lest you be a hypocryt.

From a pure land buddhist perspective 'heaven' is right here in the present moment if we would only nurture the state of mind capable of experiencing it and seeing life as a heavenly experience.
From their perspective this world is a potential heaven if people were to become more aware and less confused about how things are they could make it so.
As it stands humans are not so aware and we seem more intent on making this world more like 'hell'...
The core teachings of the Buddha and the core teachings of Jesus Christ are not in conflict or at odds with each other at all. They both deliver very similar messages to the world.

I may not have the personal experience of dying and coming back or past lives or 'heaven' but I am not so ignorant to think I know everything that is going on in life and dismiss millions of peoples experiences.
All the while I can still be sceptical, and I am. I am just not so pessimistic and cynical and don't assume I know everything there is to know...
It isn't that I believe them, it is more that I am open to the possibility that they are telling the truth and have no way to dis-prove their claims.
A key point of buddhist practice is openness, with awareness.
If people close off to the possibility of the spiritual and reduce reality down to no more than a bunch of material things and how much of that stuff they can get, all the while convinced that is the 'true' source of happiness then it is no wonder there is so much misery in the world and no wonder people will do such terrible things to each other in order to get more stuff.

 

[Ennui]

I'm afraid that I have to break something to you - the near-death experience phenomenon is likely facilitated by endogenous 5-MeO-dimethyltryptamine, not some sort of mystical life-after-death place. Also, don't you think that if you were going to go to that sort of place you'd have to be fully and permanently dead first?

 

[Absinthe]

A key point of buddhist practice is openness, with awareness.
If people close off to the possibility of the spiritual and reduce reality down to no more than a bunch of material things and how much of that stuff they can get, all the while convinced that is the 'true' source of happiness then it is no wonder there is so much misery in the world and no wonder people will do such terrible things to each other in order to get more stuff.

Because if everything boils down to a material existence, life is therefore meaningless without mysticism. And the only valid pursuit to happiness is through material wealth. Things like love, companionship, and empathy clearly can't exist in this frame of mind.

Why don't I buy this?

 

[tibetanpunk]

In the case of Dannion Brinkley, he was struck by lightning while on the telephone and died soon after. 39 minutes after being confirmed dead he was being wheeled to the morgue and came back to life, unable to speak because his tongue was so swollen he blew on the sheet that covered him to get attention. The man wheeling the tray that he was on noticed this...
He is still alive today against all odds, has complete recall of what happened after he died and displays all sorts of wonderful psychic abilities that have been well documented, included accurate telling of future events long before they ever happened...
In fact, he died a second time on an operating table many years later and came back that time also. He is alive today. You might find his personal account 'Saved by the light' interesting which also includes many accounts of other cases of interest.

 

[tibetanpunk]

Because if everything boils down to a material existence, life is therefore meaningless without mysticism. And the only valid pursuit to happiness is through material wealth. Things like love, companionship, and empathy clearly can't exist in this frame of mind.

Why don't I buy this?

You are talking mysticism...I am talking about spirituality, which in the view of buddhism is nothing more than love, compassion, empathy in relationship to the people and world around you.
It isn't some lofty fantasy world, it is very practical and down to earth.

 

[tibetanpunk]

I'm afraid that I have to break something to you - the near-death experience phenomenon is likely facilitated by endogenous 5-MeO-dimethyltryptamine, not some sort of mystical life-after-death place. Also, don't you think that if you were going to go to that sort of place you'd have to be fully and permanently dead first?

Have you ever had a lucid dream? Where you know you are dreaming and you appear to exist as an autonomous consciousness that is free from the body?
Maybe our consciousness leaves our body each time we sleep, who knows what experiences and adventures we have during this state, as our sleeping consciousness is generally autonomous from our waking one and we tend not to recall detail of our dream experiences...
If we have lived before, maybe it is not so different from our dreams...man, I can't even remember what I had for dinner last thursday, never mind my dreams or who I was in a 'past life'...

 

[Absinthe]

None of Brinkley's proclamations or alleged "psychic powers" have any credible evidence behind them, as far as I recall. It's either very circumstantial or you just have to accept his word. People coming back from a state of clinical death is not unheard of, and is actually occurring more often as a result of modern resuscitation techniques. The experiences of NDE's can be entirely attributed to psychology and workings within the material brain itself.

I consider myself pretty open too, but I don't entertain alternative ideas unless I sense an inkling of a rational, plausible basis. And I certainly won't entertain them when there are satisfactory explanations supplied within the material universe.

 

[Absinthe]

You are talking mysticism...I am talking about spirituality, which in the view of buddhism is nothing more than love, compassion, empathy in relationship to the people and world around you.
It isn't some lofty fantasy world, it is very practical and down to earth.

Then it was my misunderstanding of what you meant by the term. It just seemed like you coupled things like re-incarnation with spirituality in your post and I wasn't really seeing a link between the two.

 

[tibetanpunk]

Then it was my misunderstanding of what you meant by the term. It just seemed like you coupled things like re-incarnation with spirituality in your post and I wasn't really seeing a link between the two.

No sir, I personally don't believe in things like reincarnation and don't see any need to, it often encourages people to believe tons of weird dogmatic shit and often they misunderstand and think their current life situation is some form of punishment and other such nonsense....
I think this is because in the West our spirituality is dominated by the idea of a sadistic, dysfunctional father figure 'God' that rewards and punishes us based on our actions and if we fail to meet certain 'requirements' that 'God' apparently laid out for us...Presumably so we would all 'fail' and the sadistic 'God' could punish us all for eternity....lol
I am open to the possibility of reincarnation/rebirth though and I find the subject to be of interest, that is all I am saying.
I like practical things that I can gain direct experience of, otherwise to me, it is nothing more than a rumour or dogmatic belief and not of much use to me or anyone else as I see it.

 

[Ennui]

Have you ever had a lucid dream? Where you know you are dreaming and you appear to exist as an autonomous consciousness that is free from the body?
Maybe our consciousness leaves our body each time we sleep, who knows what experiences and adventures we have during this state, as our sleeping consciousness is generally autonomous from our waking one and we tend not to recall detail of our dream experiences...
If we have lived before, maybe it is not so different from our dreams...man, I can't even remember what I had for dinner last thursday, never mind my dreams or who I was in a 'past life'...

Dreams are dreams.

You're not speaking in any solid way here.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

In the case of Dannion Brinkley, he was struck by lightning while on the telephone and died soon after. 39 minutes after being confirmed dead he was being wheeled to the morgue and came back to life, unable to speak because his tongue was so swollen he blew on the sheet that covered him to get attention. The man wheeling the tray that he was on noticed this...
He is still alive today against all odds, has complete recall of what happened after he died and displays all sorts of wonderful psychic abilities that have been well documented, included accurate telling of future events long before they ever happened...
In fact, he died a second time on an operating table many years later and came back that time also. He is alive today. You might find his personal account 'Saved by the light' interesting which also includes many accounts of other cases of interest.

But people have claimed to see the christian heaven or spoken to Allah or something like that. Are you going to say that YOUR claims are more valid than theirs?

 

[Jintor]

I swear, somehow, somewhere, you've contradicted yourself tibetanpunk.

 

[theotherguy]

In the case of Dannion Brinkley, he was struck by lightning while on the telephone and died soon after. 39 minutes after being confirmed dead he was being wheeled to the morgue and came back to life, unable to speak because his tongue was so swollen he blew on the sheet that covered him to get attention. The man wheeling the tray that he was on noticed this...
He is still alive today against all odds, has complete recall of what happened after he died and displays all sorts of wonderful psychic abilities that have been well documented, included accurate telling of future events long before they ever happened...
In fact, he died a second time on an operating table many years later and came back that time also. He is alive today. You might find his personal account 'Saved by the light' interesting which also includes many accounts of other cases of interest.

Sure....

well let me just tell this to the amazing randi then.

 

[Godron]

2nd noble truth: There is a reason why people suffer, namely that people hold on to things as if they will last forever (people, possesions, power, beliefs) but in reality everything is in a continual state of change (has a Half life ), things are impermanent by their very nature.
Not understanding this, people grasp at the things they crave the most and ultimately lose them and this creates suffering.

So you're saying that's the only/main cause of suffering? And that the only way to prevent suffering is therefore to not care about not having things or about loosing things. Are you saying that if we just accept that things are impermanent and refuse to get attached to them, then it won't hurt when they are lost?

You don't have to give everything away to be happy, you can be happy with an abundance of wealth, love, sex, money, power etc....You should love all of these things, but not so much that you are willing to create suffering for others to get it...

But wait. If you love something, then surely you are attached to it. And if you are attached to it, then losing it will hurt. But Buddhism is supposed to prevent suffering due to loss.

I take it I'm misunderstanding something here, aren't I...

The concept of rebirth is in agreement with science. Energy cannot be destroyed, it just changes form according to cause and effect.
Say you have a bit of paper and you burn it...You did not destroy the 'paper', you simply caused it to change its form. It is 'reborn' as nutrients that get obsorbed into the soil in the form of ash, it is 'reborn' as gas, heat etc...In the same way the paper was once a seed that became a tree and that seed came from another tree and so on...
That everything is inseperably connected is observably true and not without scientific basis.

This all assumes that the soul can be objectifyed in some way, otherwise you can't apply the conservation of energy law to it. I like to think that the nature of our perceptions, emotions, memories, identity etc is more complex than that. Besides, how can "we" be to be reborn we come back completely different? By that logic, we are being reborn, because our atoms are not destroyed. If you take a person and re-arange all their atoms to form a new person, you wouldn't say the former person has been re-born, would you?

 

[15357]

Well, it's a whole shit lotta better than christianity, but...



NO INTERNETS! WHAT THE FUCVK?

 

[tibetanpunk]

So you're saying that's the only/main cause of suffering? And that the only way to prevent suffering is therefore to not care about not having things or about loosing things. Are you saying that if we just accept that things are impermanent and refuse to get attached to them, then it won't hurt when they are lost?

But wait. If you love something, then surely you are attached to it. And if you are attached to it, then losing it will hurt. But Buddhism is supposed to prevent suffering due to loss.

I take it I'm misunderstanding something here, aren't I...

This all assumes that the soul can be objectifyed in some way, otherwise you can't apply the conservation of energy law to it. I like to think that the nature of our perceptions, emotions, memories, identity etc is more complex than that. Besides, how can "we" be to be reborn we come back completely different? By that logic, we are being reborn, because our atoms are not destroyed. If you take a person and re-arange all their atoms to form a new person, you wouldn't say the former person has been re-born, would you?

First, buddhism encourages you to become more open, to care more by practicing compassion and empathy and deepening your awareness and experience of life...
If you really love someone for instance you will always be looking out for them, you will do whatever you can to make them safe and happy, you will always seek to set them free...In many cases attachment that becomes obsession is thought to be love and leads to nasty consequences....When really it is just possessive behaviour driven by primitive impulses and unconscious desires.
If you really love something then you will appreciate it while you have it and not spend all your time worrying about some future time when you won't have it....

Understanding that things are impermanent is not depressing for me....If things were not impermanent a seed could not grow into a tree, a baby into an adult etc...
It actually enables me to appreciate the things that I have in life more because I know they are fleeting and temporary.
Nothing as we know it could exist without continual change and impermanence. If anything, holding this in mind lets us stay in the present moment and appreciate things more fully.
You could of course dwell on some imagined future time when you won't have what you have now or on some past time when you didn't have it, ruining your enjoyment of it in the present...But that would seem kinda pointless, no?

You could say that we are being 'reborn' in every instant on the quantum level of reality, or in every breath we take...
Our bodies now are not the same bodies we had 7 years ago...Every cell and every atom has changed.
In the buddhist view everything in the universe is subject to the law of cause and effect and interdependent origination. This is also the scientific view. The matter (energy) that you are made up out of comes and goes all the time, changes form... and ultimately has no beginning or end.
If you were only your body, then why do people get sad when someone dies? Their body is still there...So if that is all a person is, why get sad?
I think people intuitively know that the essense of the person has left their body behind and moved on, that is why they feel a sense of loss...
I guess it does come down to faith to a certain extent, but not blind faith...A faith based on conviction, based on personal experience.

As far as evidence for reincarnation, I have no need to convince anyone of anything...I am not even convinced myself, I was just offering some alternative ideas based on peoples testimony....
Funny how we accept a persons testimony and another person is often put in jail or even sentenced to death because of it, but when it comes to something mystical or profound they are met with fierce pessimism...
Just remember, no one knows enough to be truly pessimistic.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

If you were only your body, then why do people get sad when someone dies? Their body is still there...So if that is all a person is, why get sad?
I think people intuitively know that the essense of the person has left their body behind and moved on

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read. People get sad because that person has died. Even if you believe in an afterlife thats sad (and trust me, if you don't funerals are extremly sad occasions).

 

[tibetanpunk]

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read. People get sad because that person has died. Even if you believe in an afterlife thats sad (and trust me, if you don't funerals are extremly sad occasions).

I was recently at my grandmother's funeral, her body was definately dead, and people were sad that she was now absent from their lives (which is essentially us being selfish), but everyone there celebrated her life and that we were graced with her presense in our lives.
Her presense was as strong as ever at the funeral and after it, if not stronger. It lives on in the hearts and minds of everyone that was lucky enough to have met her.
After the funeral and on several occassions now I have met and spoke with my grandmother in dreams of the lucid variety where I was very aware that I was in fact asleep and that it was my grandmother whom I love deeply. Through these experiences I know that there is life after what we call death and that death is by no means the end. It is just a transition between one form of life to another.
This has **** all to do with religion or anything else other than my own personal and direct experience. It just happens that within the teachings of buddhism they deal with all of this and allow you to touch the experience deeply, rather than dismiss it.
It really doesn't matter if you cannot comprehend it, or believe it, that won't change my experience...And I am by no means alone in this type of experience either, it is actually very, very common.
People generally only ridicule others because they are riddled with fear of the unknown that has caused them to close their heart and mind to such experiences and this in turn makes people reluctant to speak of their profound and spiritual expriences openly...It is a viscious circle.
And it is probably why they say 'don't throw your pearls before swine'.

Maybe I can direct the original poster or whoever is actually interested towards some good resources, rather than try to slug it out with a random bunch of dicks:E

 

[Solaris]

Fight club:

"Warning: If you are reading this then this warning is for you. Every word you read of this useless fine print is another second off your life. Don't you have other things to do? Is your life so empty that you honestly can't think of a better way to spend these moments? Or are you so impressed with authority that you give respect and credence to all that claim it? Do you read everything you're supposed to read? Do you think every thing you're supposed to think? Buy what you're told to want? Get out of your apartment. Meet a member of the opposite sex. Stop the excessive shopping and masturbation. Quit your job. Start a fight. Prove you're alive. If you don't claim your humanity you will become a statistic. You have been warned- Tyler "

"**** off with your sofa units and strine green stripe patterns, I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let... lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may."

"We're consumers. We are by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don't concern me. What concerns me are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine, Viagra, Olestra."
"The things you own, end up owning you"

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I was recently at my grandmother's funeral, her body was definately dead, and people were sad that she was now absent from their lives (which is essentially us being selfish), but everyone there celebrated her life and that we were graced with her presense in our lives.
Her presense was as strong as ever at the funeral and after it, if not stronger. It lives on in the hearts and minds of everyone that was lucky enough to have met her.
After the funeral and on several occassions now I have met and spoke with my grandmother in dreams of the lucid variety where I was very aware that I was in fact asleep and that it was my grandmother whom I love deeply. Through these experiences I know that there is life after what we call death and that death is by no means the end. It is just a transition between one form of life to another.
This has **** all to do with religion or anything else other than my own personal and direct experience. It just happens that within the teachings of buddhism they deal with all of this and allow you to touch the experience deeply, rather than dismiss it.
It really doesn't matter if you cannot comprehend it, or believe it, that won't change my experience...And I am by no means alone in this type of experience either, it is actually very, very common.

OMG YOU HAD A DREAM IT IS LIKE THE TROOF LOLZ.


Arguing with people like you is just stupid. You would't change if sigmund freiud himself said that your dream was just a dream. You constantly talk about comprehending - WELL HELP US COMPREHEND - SHOW SOME ****ING EVIDENCE.

People generally only ridicule others because they are riddled with fear of the unknown that has caused them to close their heart and mind to such experiences and this in turn makes people reluctant to speak of their profound and spiritual expriences openly...It is a viscious circle.
And it is probably why they say 'don't throw your pearls before swine'.

No, I closed my mind and heart to spiritual matters because there is no evidence that such things are spiritual. I am extremly open-minded about these things - if you post even one spiritual experiance that is completely unexplainable I swear to you I will qeustion my materialism.

Maybe I can direct the original poster or whoever is actually interested towards some good resources, rather than try to slug it out with a random bunch of dicks:E

Ah how predictable - unable to back his claims up with logic or evidence he resorts to ad hominem - how typical. Look I can do that to, dipshit! You won't get good karma calling people names.

 

[tibetanpunk]

Dude, you are obviously here to rant and want to fight and assert that people are wrong for being spiritually inclined...Or you are driven by the need to be right about something that can neither be proven or disproven...Which is totally pointless and I won't enter into the debate for that reason.
That wasn't why I joined into this thread. I joined the thread in response to the original posters questions and if you read back, my response was that from a buddhist perspective you don't have to believe in dogma, or in anything that is not well reasoned and able to be directly experienced, you don't even have to become a buddhist to practice such things, or be religious affiliated in any sense.
At no point did I say that anyone had to accept my experience as the truth, in fact...I asserted that you should find your own truth through direct experience. If that direct experience happens to be deeply personal and cannot be proven to be true, does it really matter?

Your last post basically proved my point though...Good luck with that

 

[Kadayi]

Personally I subscribe to the Taoist Philosophy of life which is a tad more practical than buddism (we can't all sit around meditating), though they both share similarities. The Ying Yang Symbol is first and foremost a Taoist symbol rather than a buddist one though, fact fans.

@Atomic_Piggy

It's amusing that you site Freud, because given your lack of base human empathy he'd probably label you as a sociopath. Way to go at diminishing yourself DF.

 

[Stigmata]

I subscribe to Stigmata's Philosophy of Life: Question everything, live according to the answers, and never forget to question the answers.

 

[Ennui]

OMG YOU HAD A DREAM IT IS LIKE THE TROOF LOLZ.


Arguing with people like you is just stupid. You would't change if sigmund freiud himself said that your dream was just a dream. You constantly talk about comprehending - WELL HELP US COMPREHEND - SHOW SOME ****ING EVIDENCE.

What do you want him to do, kill himself and come back in the next life and post in the thread to verify 10 years from now? Buddhism is based very strongly in logic, reason, and self-improvement, although sometimes faith is used as a means to that end. Furthermore, mocking him based on something that he clearly feels strongly about, both spiritually and because it has much to do with his recently dead grandmother, is not only abject but also somewhat contemptible.

No, I closed my mind and heart to spiritual matters because there is no evidence that such things are spiritual. I am extremly open-minded about these things - if you post even one spiritual experiance that is completely unexplainable I swear to you I will qeustion my materialism.

There appears to be a contradiction here. "I closed my mind... to spiritual matters" and "I am extremely open-minded about these things". Two sentences next to each other that make no sense when combined. Furthermore, what you describe in the last sentence is not even remotely being 'open-minded', it's essentially you saying that you will believe it only if he provides solid evidence and otherwise won't give it a further positive thought. I think we can all agree that open-mindedness is partially defined by a willingness to consider or contemplate things even if they don't have compelling evidence to back up everything related to them.

Food for thought, as well, in the form of an analogy. Would you reject an entire buffet because there are one or two selections of food on it that you don't like? Could you not eat at the buffet and just avoid those foods, or at least appreciate the fact that there is a lot of delicious sustenance present despite the drawback of a few undesirable varieties?