Buff the Damn Engineer

[Stormy]

Anyone find that the engineer really needs a decent buff. He was about my favorate class back in the old TFC days and I really want to love him in tf2 but really struggle to enjoy playing him.

I know the easy option is to "not play him" but I want too because he kicks ass.

What I find very frustrating is just how the sentry guns are just meh, the damage on them is pretty good yea but it's jsut such a struggle to keep one alive for more then 20 seconds. I understand that if it was too powerful then it would make to many stale mates and kill the flow of the game but it really gets on my nuts when I spend 5 mins getting the gun and dispencer together just to have it instantly killed by a spy.

Fixing this wise I havnt thought about it much yet. Maybe some kind of upgrade that unclocks spys, maybe spys unclock each other like in tf2 and increased range per level.

Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

 

[Darkside55]

Engineer is better in TF2 than TFC. I don't understand how you can say, "He was my favorite class in TFC but I'm having a hard time playing him in TF2."

Is it just the spy sapping your stuff? That really shouldn't be hard to deal with...I don't really know what to say other than, y'know, "good luck" or "get better at detecting and killing spies."

 

[Stormy]

The engineer was a bunch better in tfc, you could quite happily keep a sentry up for a hole map if you managed to find a sneaky spot for them and that was befor they even introduced the dispencer to the game.

I just find they are lacking considering the amount of time they take to put together. I think sappers are over powered, the sentry's should be all round tougher and just generaly be more effective. Rather then just die without doing anything.

 

[Eejit]

The engi update is coming, not to worry. I imagine there will be plenty of new options then.

Sentries can still be pretty strong even against a team playing well together, as long as the engi's team supports use of the SG.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

This is madness, the engineer is one of the most successful classes as it is, with 3 or more on defence most teams are difficult to beat without real co-ordination (which isn't frequent on pubs).

There are plenty of sentry spots where you can put sentries which will do considerable damage but limit the damage they take. Most of these have been found now, I'm surprised that you are struggling to keep a sentry up in these locations.

I'm sure other people will agree the engineer really does hold his own, I honestly can't see the weakness you speak of.

 

[Stormy]

Hummm... Maybe I just need to play with him more, and work out some better placement spots. Generaly the main problem are spys and their damn sappers.

 

[Jintor]

Engies are devestating if you have teammates who know how to do things like "Spycheck" and "Juggle Ubers" and if engies back each other up.

 

[Shem]

Try to find a pyro to check for spies, and stay by your equipment at all times (unless you need to get metal). That decreases the risk of a spy sapping your stuff.

 

[PorkPi]

If you're not having fun with engineer I recommend playing offensively more. If you aren't really good at that here's a helpful video showing new defensive strategies as well as good offensive technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxodkFM8N1U

 

[Stormy]

When i play engineer I never leave the gun, only to grab more metal, prefrably from fallen weapons. I'll be standing behind it banging away when a spy goes sap knife so quickly that there is shit all you can do about it :/ over and over again so they gun dosnt last more then 10 mins.

 

[PorkPi]

The main thing I've learned is that you're way more important than your gun. Especially when on offense. If you die, they'll probably kill your sg anyway so you should save yourself and your team won't have to wait >20 seconds to get a new gun. Also, though it may be risky, roaming around with your shotgun is very fun and rewarding at times. It's very satisfying if you sneak up and shotgun a demo that was focused on your sentry.

 

[Stormy]

Seems my main problem is I always try and "tank" the gun, maybe I should step back and watch if more often.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

When i play engineer I never leave the gun, only to grab more metal, prefrably from fallen weapons. I'll be standing behind it banging away when a spy goes sap knife so quickly that there is shit all you can do about it :/ over and over again so they gun dosnt last more then 10 mins.

Never just stand behind your sentry banging away, you are asking for trouble doing that. What i like to do is to jump on top of my Sentry or dispenser and keep my shotgun out looking for anyone nearby. Look around and not just straight ahead, your weakness is your back the time it takes for your sentry to spin round is more than enough for the stab n sap. Whilst your on your sentry or dispenser it makes it more difficult for the spy to stab you and you can easily see them uncloaking which give me plenty of time to blast them in the face and remove any sappers.

 

[Laivasse]

Really never expected to see this thread. Engies are plenty powerful. And sappers are pretty laughable. Think about the amount of peril the spy has to put himself in to get a sapper on your equipment, versus the amount of peril the engy is in just sitting there and building it - and then unless the spy manages to wipe you out and there are no engineers in a fairly wide radius, there is a very good chance that sapper is coming straight back off.

They can be devastating, sure, but of all the weapons that I could imagine people wanting to be nerfed, sapper was not among them.

Don't underestimate the power of the engy on his own, his shotgun is fairly meaty. Tanking your gun is fine and smart if you do it at the right times, but there's stuff you can do away from the gun as well, spychecking being one.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Is it me or does the Engis wrench have like a 100% crit rate. Whenever i'm a Spy 9 times out of 10 i'm killed by a crit wrench.

 

[Slug Advisor]

Engis are one of the most difficult classes to approach as a spy, if they're doing it right. If you backstab them, the sentry kills you. If you sap the sentry, they turn around and kill you.

 

[Shem]

Is it me or does the Engis wrench have like a 100% crit rate. Whenever i'm a Spy 9 times out of 10 i'm killed by a crit wrench.

I think you're just unlucky

 

[Laivasse]

The wrench does indeed have a very high crit rate, though.

 

[Eejit]

And of course the increased damage means that the killing blow is even more likely to be a crit than the base crit rate suggests. Giving the impression that the crit rate is higher than it is.

 

[Warped]

I'd love to see an option for a jump lift rather than a teleporter sometimes. I think it would change the gameplay a bit.

 

[Viperidae]

Is it me or does the Engis wrench have like a 100% crit rate. Whenever i'm a Spy 9 times out of 10 i'm killed by a crit wrench.

The wrench has a small rocket booster in it, making it strike harder and faster.

 

[nurizeko]

Engie rule 1: Like the Pyro be paranoid of every one and every hidey corner.

Rule 2: Keep your back to the wall, rogues do it from behind.

Rule 3: **** your gun, you don't need to be leg-humping it all the time, as long as your nearby. As has been said, a live engi is more valuable then a tanked gun that gets nuked anyway.

Rule 4: Buddy up. One engi and his toys is a challenge for most classes, two is even rougher. For added effect if a Pyro is on defence get him to be your pet and spycheck. If he isn't spy-checking he is a bad Pyro and you should tell him so.

Rule 5: Learn the maps, and spots. Build ahead of the action at likely routes and try and place the sentry where it eill be most surprising and have the most chance to kill an enemy without them being able to react quick enough. Trying to build right up in the action isn't for the mediocre Engie.

Rule 6: You, the Engie himself is a vital part of the whole. Your SG is the main weapon so to speak but it doesn't hurt to use yourself to its advantage, add your firepower to its own, bait enemies, grind them down before they run into it and don't underestimate the shotgun and pistol. The shotgun is a good weapon (I used it more then my flamethrower when TF2 first came out and I played Pyro) and the pistol is nice and spammable. No-one ever expects to die to the "harmless" little support class puttering away with a pistol. Their death, your kill.

 

[kazsymonds]

Location location location, i consider demos more of a threat. That's why i'm engi on defence and demo on offense, to take down all the sentries i would have put up.

 

[Adabiviak]

I learned a lot about playing as an engineer by playing as a spy - when you're looking for weaknesses to exploit, you learn what to watch for as an engineer. Some are easier to exploit than others, but you'll figure them out pretty quick when you're on the 'other' end.

For the record, I have never seen an engineer rush (on defense) fail with teams of eight or more. Do not underestimate the engineer class, especially when they work together.

 

[Darkside55]

The engineer was a bunch better in tfc, you could quite happily keep a sentry up for a hole map if you managed to find a sneaky spot for them and that was befor they even introduced the dispencer to the game.

I don't think you ever played TFC, son. Furthermore I'm almost convinced you've never actually played engineer on TF2 for longer than fifteen minutes. Let me extrapolate on why you are completely wrong.

You seem to be under the misguided belief that the TFC engineer's strength was in the ability to maintain his sentry gun. This is incorrect.

The engineer's strength in TFC had nothing to do with his buildings. NOTHING. No, shut up, you don't know what you're talking about. Even managing to get a sentry gun up to the coveted spots like the bridge ceiling in Crossover2 or on the lights outside the flag silo in Badlands, or building a floating or mini SG in Well, it doesn't matter--they were effective for about two minutes before someone took them out or bypassed them entirely. The engineer's strength was in the fact that most idiots weren't smart enough to hit X when they grabbed an ammo pack, and your EMP grenades lit them up like a goddamned Christmas tree.

No sir, the engineer in TFC had it rough when it came to buildings. You think your SG's fine sitting at the end of the hallway in Well? I bet you think you're clever setting it up above the grate in Rock2. You probably think that you've got the whole enemy team running for cover when you used an EMP jump to get up on the wall in Torch and build an SG up there to mow down their forces, don't you? Well you're wrong and your sentry's probably only gonna last five minutes at best. You know why?

MIRV
PIPEBOMB
DETPACK
NAIL GRENADE
FRAG GRENADE
SNIPER
ROCKET
NAILGUN
SUPER NAILGUN
FLAMETHROWER
INCENDIARY GRENADE
RAILGUN

and maybe EMP

And everybody but the scout had a frag grenade, son. They were carrying at least two. And the scout could either bypass your SG or run circles around a level 3 using his nailgun. Which means everybody could take out the SG. EVERYBODY.

In TF2, your main worry is the spy. Sure, the other classes can take out sentries, but not like in TFC, 'cause nobody's got grenades. Furthermore your dispenser actually DOES something by healing you and providing up to 400 metal. (Far more than the TFC dispenser carried) The best thing the dispenser was good for in TFC was being a bullet sponge for your SG and a remote mine. And if someone blows up your dispenser in TF2, if your dispenser was full it's not gonna go off like a GODDAMNED DETPACK AND KILL YOU IF YOU WERE STANDING NEXT TO IT.

And again, if you're really having a problem defending your SG against spies you're not doing it right. You need to run more spy checks and be quicker with that wrench. Break sapper, hit spy in face, repair SG. Or break sapper, Q to shotgun, shoot spy in face, Q wrench, repair SG. Someone else here mentioned to build with the buddy system; take his advice. You'll want your dispenser and your SG covering your fellow engineers' blindspots.

Build in places that make it hard for a spy to get you. Build near corners. Build in areas you can easily get back to in order to wrench the sapper off your sentry.

It's really so much harder to kill an SG these days than it was in TFC, because there's no fear of a grenade being flung into an engy nest. You get a bunch of engies in a map like Hoodoo and you can lock it down easy.





tl;dr: You've never played TFC, practice more with engineer in TF2.

 

[Ennui]

HEY I'M DARKSIDE AND I ****ING PLAYED TFC SO MUCH I SHIT CONC JUMPS YO

also transformers

To be fair the engie is much less kickass in TF2 now than he was initially after release because people have gotten much better at fighting him. A determined demoman can wipe out an engie nest almost anywhere.

 

[Darkside55]

Uh, exactly why are you trying to shit on what I said, Ennui? Being that he was actually talking about TFC and I was refuting what he said with fact...

Also you're stupid and don't even know. A "determined demoman?" Get the fuck out of here. You think a demoman can get rid of a engineer defense at Hoodoo B or Gravelpit C? Get out of here you don't know what you're talking about.

And if you're doubting, add me on your steamfriends (I forget whether you're on there or not already). Next time I'm on TF2 I will personally prove this to you.

 

[Eejit]

Gravelpit C no problem, happens regularly. I don't play Hoodoo much.

 

[Darkside55]

Depends on where the engineers set up. C can actually go into complete lockdown.

There's this spot on Hoodoo B right above the first checkpoint. Double ramp to an overhang facing the checkpoint. To the side is a back way through a cliff leading to the final checkpoint on B. Beneath the cliff opening is a door the attackers can move through.

Situate a gun on the top ramp facing the attackers. Place dispenser at top of ramp. Teleporters in the corner of the overhang. Two SGs facing down at the checkpoint. This is now a locked down spot, especially if you're teleporting in medics, pyros, and demomen.

There's one possible counter to this strategy that the demoman could possibly pull off:

Enter door underneath cliff, stickyjump into cliff, grab health at the end of tunnel, sticky tunnel to prevent incoming forces, launch pipes into overhang from side.

Counter strategy for Red: build SG facing tunnel, optionally position long range defender at cliff opening before healthpack.


Complete lockdown.

 

[Eejit]

In my experience SGs are never responsible for complete lockdowns on servers where people play well as a team. They are weak against co-ordinated pushes, the only defense against that is a co-ordinated defense with ubercharges of their own.

 

[Darkside55]

In my experience SGs are never responsible for complete lockdowns on servers where people play well as a team.

Mileage may vary.

On a team that has seriously well-coordinated defense it is entirely possible to stop the offense dead in their tracks with sentry guns. Think of places like uh...pl_frontier. Or...jeez what's that one map...I still haven't memorized all the map names; I end up playing a lot of custom maps. Well, specific examples don't really matter, the point is that if you've got good SG theory then you can set up in ways that cover your teammates (and teammates' SGs). That's how you get lockdowns.

An ubercharge or a kritzkrieg doesn't actually mean anything unless you can get to my SG and destroy it in time, and also make sure that I don't have someone covering my ass once your charge wears off.

 

[Ennui]

Man you get awfully butthurt when someone pokes a little fun at you, despite that doing the same to others is half your schtick around here. I meant no harm, relax. In fact it was an affectionate jab at how you go into hyper 1337 nerdrage mode anytime TFC or Transformers is mentioned.

Note that I said "almost anywhere" not "I can take out a hunkered down Engineer anywhere on any map at any time against anyone when I am a Demoman, including when he is part of a well-organized defensive strategy" which seems to be what you are responding to.

A single engineer is still pretty vulnerable without support from his team, generally speaking. That's not to say that a talented engie can't handle a lot of flak, but if he's on his own against a bunch of pubbies that are pissed enough about getting killed by his SG to actually work together, he's in trouble. And truly godlike SG positions are relatively rare. You are right in saying that a team working together to defend can completely lock down on some maps though, even against a team that's well-coordinated - so long as the engineers work together and the rest of the team steps in to counter ubers.

What do I know though. I haven't played TF2 since before the Scout update.

 

[Darkside55]

I wasn't getting butthurt. I realized after I posted that it sounded like that, but I just didn't bother to edit it with smiley faces or any of that crap. Anyway you've known me long enough that you should be able to tell when I'm ACTUALLY butthurt about something: my reply would be no less than fifteen paragraphs, multiquoted, with footnotes.

Anyway the whole point of this was that engineers now are a lot better than they were in TFC. Granted, engineers aren't a godlike class--I'm not going to say that a demoman can't take them out. I WILL say if you're an engineer and you build somewhere where a demoman CAN take out your SG you're doing it wrong and need to go back to the drawing board.

Of a pub mob ganging up on an engineer, it's really rare. For one, it's rare that an engineer will have absolutely no backup--other classes tend to gravitate toward an engineer for the safety he provides. You will almost never encounter an engineer without a combat-oriented teammate like a soldier. Engineers and soldiers might as well be glued to the hip in most pubs. If not that, most engineers will group together in little engineer colonies. The reason being, if you're playing engineer and you actually have half a brain, you're going to want to build in concert with your engineer teammates.

That's another thing, too...engineers in TF2 group up a whole lot more than they did in TFC. Now that I think about it, that's actually pretty curious...well, that's something to ponder about later.

As for "godlike SG positions," they're not as rare as you might think. Like I said earlier it's all SG theory. You look at a map and you should understand where you should build. There's no "invincible" SG position, but every map has at least a couple damn good ones. You have to think about vulnerability, ease of access, where the enemy will be coming from, classes to anticipate, etc. That's why it's "mileage may vary" on pubs, because sometimes you'll see stupid engineers building in retard places, and maybe the best thing you can do is set up to back them up and form a semblance of defense.



Also, why have you not played TF2 recently? Man, I have a reason I can't be playing TF2 all the time. What's your excuse? I was all hoping you'd take my bait and be like "FINE DARKSIDE I'LL STICKY THE HELL OUT OF YOUR SG DEFENSE" and then I could be like "I WILL LOCKDOWN ON YOUR FACE"

 

[Stormy]

I cba to read all that. Yes, i played tfc for around 3 years so I did play it. Yes, the EMP granades where good I used them a lot. Yes, it was hard to keep offence sentrys up and its pretty easy to keep a defence one up.

But lets say I didnt play it because its not worth the argument.

So yea, I have spent a bit more time playing engineer over the last cople of days but have been playing a bit differently, worrying less about the gun and taking a set back watching for spys and its really working better. Seems to me that I was just looking at how to play at the wrong angle and this thread has helped me put the guy in a new perspective.

I had no idea that banging increased build times so thats also helped a bunch getting guns up quickly.

I still want the gun to have longer range tho.

Also I think they used to be better, but I'm now happy with what is there.

----

I think what annoys me about the range thing is it kind of reduces the choice you have as to where to put the guns, unlimited range would be to much, but I get this feeling wile im playing that the places I should put my sentry guns have already been dictated to my by a level designer.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

I came in to this thread expecting you to bitch about Demomen(seeing as any decent one is a royal pain in the ass to an engy)...but seeing as your bitching about spies it's clear that you just plain suck at playing engineer.

 

[nurizeko]

I came in to this thread expecting you to bitch about Demomen(seeing as any decent one is a royal pain in the ass to an engy)...but seeing as your bitching about spies it's clear that you just plain suck at playing engineer.

Very helpful.

 

[Ennui]

Also, why have you not played TF2 recently? Man, I have a reason I can't be playing TF2 all the time. What's your excuse? I was all hoping you'd take my bait and be like "FINE DARKSIDE I'LL STICKY THE HELL OUT OF YOUR SG DEFENSE" and then I could be like "I WILL LOCKDOWN ON YOUR FACE"

Well, I sort of cycle through phases with games, and I just haven't been on a TF2 kick in a while (been playing DOD and various RTSes instead lately). That and I am annoyed at how much time with classes I don't like as much I have to spend to get unlocks. Whenever the engineer or demoman update comes out I'll probably be hopping back on the TF2 train though. We can still play TF2 sometime though especially if you like that one stalemate custom "rats" style map.

 

[Darkside55]

That and I am annoyed at how much time with classes I don't like as much I have to spend to get unlocks.

Pssst....achievement_____.bsp

Whenever the engineer or demoman update comes out I'll probably be hopping back on the TF2 train though. We can still play TF2 sometime though especially if you like that one stalemate custom "rats" style map.

Oh, we'll definitely have to play some rats.

You know, it warrants its own thread, but I've really been thinking lately about the engineer update. I'm not sure what kinds of things you can give the engineer that'd mix up his game.

 

[Ennui]

Me either, I'm very interested to see what they're going to do there. It's hardly a derail to discuss it in this thread, since it's already all about the Engineer. What I really want to know is if they will just replace the weapons or if he'll get some kind of upgraded/different buildings as well or instead. What are your thoughts?

 

[Omnomnick]

Is it me or does the Engis wrench have like a 100% crit rate. Whenever i'm a Spy 9 times out of 10 i'm killed by a crit wrench.

That would be a 90% crit rate then huh?