Bump mapping, or lack therof?

[dazinith]

after watching the videos it seems like there is no bump mapping.. the boxes and walls, etc have textures with shadows drawn on them, but otherwise are completely flat.. i know in doom3 their textures are drawn at the same time the bump mapping is done.. im wondering is halflife not going to use bumpmapping on a majority of their surfaces?

 

[A2597]

well, in the beginning vid the rock wall was a subdevided bump map...looked SWEET.

so it is capable for useage.

 

[Guest]

HEY thier is a bump mapping but the at the time of the video the game was in its 80% texture......

 

[ComradeBadger]

I haven't seen the e3 vids so I can't speak for them... but Bump Mapping IS in HL2...... we know that for sure, but at the time of E3 they quite likely didn't have it all in place.

EDIT: Wow, this is an unusually intelligent/intelligible discussion/question

 

[Guest]

mrbger you r very coooorrrrect.:cheers:

 

[dazinith]

i hope you are right about it just not being in yet, because i know the added texture of bump mapping is really what brings textures alive.. to me the game looked really detailed, but the flat textures deftinately detracted from the overall feel.

 

[Ateoto]

I dont think they will use bump mapping on every single surface in the game, but they will definitely use it where their artists think it should go. And yeah that rock wall looked sweet. Id like to see it in High Quality.

 

[smilez]

There was no bump mapping in the docks video.. which was disapointing. The wooden planks would have looked so real with it

 

[dazinith]

Originally posted by Digerati
I dont think they will use bump mapping on every single surface in the game, but they will definitely use it where their artists think it should go.

thats really unfortunate.. its quite a pain to go back and add bump mapping to every texture once they are done.. but doing them as they were made wouldn't have been that bad of an idea.. i guess we will have to wait and see.. i am not sure what rock wall is being referred to.. guess i need to watch the video again.. maybe ill post some screen grabs later to show my point.. anyone have a pic of anything that is bump mapped?

 

[Mountain Man]

The Source engine is capable of using every graphical trick in the book. The various videos we've seen are from older builds of the Source engine and from levels that are either works in progress or simple mock-ups for demonstration purposes only.

Don't worry, I'm certain Half-Life 2 will feature enough jaw-dropping eye candy to keep everybody happy.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I have bump-mapped models for my mod.... but they're under wraps for now ... sorry ... but Valve have told us that it's in Source, and anyway, it's not exactly hard to code anyway

 

[Guest]

DAM I played the dock video now and I saw the wooden shit.... man this is realy :bonce:... the yhave to add this BM or this game will be good but not great..........:flame:

DAM THIS ****ING SHIT

 

[ComradeBadger]

There IS bump mapping in Half Life 2..... :flame:... so don't worry, early builds of Source don't feature it however, so please don't worry, unless you DL an alpha or anything like that

 

[Guest]

mmmmm thanks mrbadger:flame: ;( :cheese:

 

[Finger]

If you think Bump Mapping keeps a game from being great, how the hell do you explain Super Mario, or Zelda, or Tetris, or HL1, etc.etc.etc.

Bump mapping should be applied where bump mapping works best. It is easily one of the most abused tricks, and its subtle use in HL2 seems just right from the videos I have witnessed.

Keep your panties on.

 

[dazinith]

Originally posted by mrBadger
There IS bump mapping in Half Life 2..... :flame:... so don't worry, early builds of Source don't feature it however, so please don't worry, unless you DL an alpha or anything like that

theres a difference between the engine supporting it and it being in the game.. and i haven't seen it in the game.. i hope it gets used alot more than just certain walls, etc.

 

[Spiffae]

Also, if you look at the docks video (crummy, i know) you'll notice that the texturing is all off (planks not aligned, blurry textures on the posts) which is in no way final texture work. Gabe Newell has said numerous times that the last stages of work on the game are final playtesting/level tweaking and the artists doing a final texturing pass, putting in all the details and little touches that will make the world come alive.

My guess is that part of making the world come alive is bumpmapping/good texturing.

Moral: Don't worry.

 

[dazinith]

Originally posted by Finger
If you think Bump Mapping keeps a game from being great, how the hell do you explain Super Mario, or Zelda, or Tetris, or HL1, etc.etc.etc.

obviously bump mapping doesnt make the game good or bad.. but it is something that brings depth to the virtual world.. if your going to use this arguement why dont we argue over the use of polygons? this is a rude and pointless comment..

Originally posted by Finger
Bump mapping should be applied where bump mapping works best.

using bump mapping in one spot and not another actually detracts from the feel of the world because in the real world a box has texture whether it 'works' or not..

Originally posted by Finger
It is easily one of the most abused tricks, and its subtle use in HL2 seems just right from the videos I have witnessed.

how can it be an 'abused trick' when its not a trick at all.. its a way of adding 3d texture to a surface.. and it is so subtle that it doesnt exist, how is that 'just right'?

Originally posted by Finger
Keep your panties on.

i was trying to find out information on bump mapping in half-life 2, not argue.. so keep comments like this to yourself and have an educated discussion.

 

[dazinith]

Originally posted by Spiffae
Also, if you look at the docks video (crummy, i know) you'll notice that the texturing is all off (planks not aligned, blurry textures on the posts) which is in no way final texture work. Gabe Newell has said numerous times that the last stages of work on the game are final playtesting/level tweaking and the artists doing a final texturing pass, putting in all the details and little touches that will make the world come alive.

My guess is that part of making the world come alive is bumpmapping/good texturing.

Moral: Don't worry.

thanks for this info.. and im not worrying, i am definately looking forward to hl2

 

[Chicky]

itll be prudy like a spring day so dont worry

 

[Loke]

Sorry if this already been posted, but you can see bump-mapping on the surface in the video were Gordon fights against the Striders.
And it looks really nice.

 

[DarkStar]

The one game I can think of that I've played with really noticable bump-mapping was Halo. Even in that, you really couldn't tell something was bump-mapped unless you shined the flashlight on it. Maybe it the HL2 videos had loads of bump-mapping but we just couldn't tell.

 

[Hudson]

which surface?

 

[Finger]

>> obviously bump mapping doesnt make the game good or bad.. but it is something that brings depth to the virtual world.. if your going to use this arguement why dont we argue over the use of polygons?

I was not making an argument.. I was making a point by extreme example. Bump mapping (and graphics in general) doesn't neccisarily make, or break a game. I am glad we agree on this.

>> this is a rude and pointless comment..

No. A rude and pointless comment, would be something like "Your mother sucks goat tits!".

>> using bump mapping in one spot and not another actually detracts from the feel of the world because in the real world a box has texture whether it 'works' or not..

Really? So bump mapping every crease, crevice, and notch in every stone, plank, and pebble is the best decision, if bump mapping is to be used at all? I was thinking more along the lines of using bump mapping where it obviously needs to be: decaying wood, coarse stone walls, rivets in a plaster wall..etc. Leave the smaller less noticed details to standard texturing, and save resources.

>> how can it be an 'abused trick' when its not a trick at all.. its a way of adding 3d texture to a surface

Well, it is a 'trick of the eye', seeing as I can't reach out and feel it. All projected images are 'tricks' in some sense if you want to get nitty-gritty about it.

>> .. and it is so subtle that it doesnt exist, how is that 'just right'?

From what I saw, in the E3 video (especially the tech video). The bump mapping was subltle enough to NOT stand out as bump mapping, but effective enough to portray the materials as real surfaces, with depth. I have seen screenshots from games, and models that incorporate bump mapping, where it seems to have been overused and draws away from the realism, rather than add to it. I am happy that this is not the case with HL2

>> i was trying to find out information on bump mapping in half-life 2, not argue.. so keep comments like this to yourself and have an educated discussion.

I will place my comments wherever I see fit. To my knowledge, this WAS an educated discussion...spiced up with a little humor, sarcasm, and some harmless jabbing, as most good discussions are.

You sir, may also 'keep your panties on'.

 

[Loke]

Originally posted by |CC|Hudson
which surface?

The stones/bricks on the surface. You can see that it shines on it really nice.

 

[[Matt]]

look at each video released over steam and you can see distinct examples of bump mapping in each.... You lot are obviously not looking hard enough!

 

[Demonmerc]

The first game I saw with bump-mapping was serious sam. If you look at the walls of the first level close-up, the look very realistic, except for the repetitiveness.

It is not impossibly difficult too add bump mapping later, it is basically another layer that goes over a 2-D texture and shades it accordingly, giving it a 3-D look.

For anyone who still doesn't know what the full-effect of bump-mapping is, imagine a tiled floor in HL1. It is completely flat, and the cracks are all the same color. With bump-mapping, the tiles will appear to stick out of the floor, like they are individually placed. Light will bounce of them realistically, and the mortar inbetween them will look like rough as well.

 

[Tropico]

Actually the G-man video looks much better than all the rest i hope all the faces look like that one

 

[X-Vector]

There *is* bumpmapping in the game, although the movies don't show it clearly.
However, when you take a look at the "faces of Alyx" set of screenshots, you'll notice that a bumpmap is applied to the back wall, which is especially noticable in the spot near the table lamp.

Also, the tile walls in the prison scene show bumpmapping and speculative highlighting as well I think (similar to the recent "bathroom" DX9 screenshot of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. it seems).

Originally posted by dazinith:
using bump mapping in one spot and not another actually detracts from the feel of the world because in the real world a box has texture whether it 'works' or not..

The real world has no bumpmapping, basically everything that looks 3D *is* 3D (the real kind, not the type simulated on your 2D monitor screen), while bumpmapping just creates the appropriate illusion.

how can it be an 'abused trick' when its not a trick at all..

A couple of months ago, I saw a number of screenshots of a game called "Abducted" (I believe) that had a bumpmap applied to more or less every visible surface, it looked absolutely awful.
Tenebrae Quake also shows that using the bumpmap trick doesn't necessarily result in a good or 'right' looking game.

obviously bump mapping doesnt make the game good or bad.. but it is something that brings depth to the virtual world.. if your going to use this arguement why dont we argue over the use of polygons? this is a rude and pointless comment..

It isn't, Finger was replying to the simplistic "no BM = good but not great game" comment that Gorgon made.

 

[Spiffae]

good points all around, X-Vector.

are you the X-Vector who translated that interview with Gabe Newell back when this news was al new?

 

[Mountain Man]

And what the heck is that avatar supposed to be? It's always looked like a yellow toilet to me!

 

[X-Vector]

Originally posted by Spiffae
are you the X-Vector who translated that interview with Gabe Newell back when this news was al new?

Do you think anyone else would choose such a silly nick?

Originally posted by Mountain Man:
And what the heck is that avatar supposed to be? It's always looked like a yellow toilet to me!

Kinda ironic you should ask that, as my avatar is somewhat related to your nick.

A couple of clues:

- Laura Palmer's bosom.

- colour is in perpetual state of flux; it is happening again...

- the owls are not what they seem.

 

[Gojin]

Bah! So your avatar is of a mormon who's running from the government living in Idaho? I watch too many made for tv movies, lol.

Edit: Those are who the palmers were, right? That racist/extremist family that lived on like ruby hill or somethin'. Palmer sounded familiar and the relating to the nick "mountain man" just made me think that.

 

[Spiffae]

x-vector...hi. Remember the monster comments thread on VE? that was a good time.

do you have a link to that translation?

 

[Lifthz]

Yes, Half-Life 2 does seem to have lack of bumpmapping compared to other games in development right now.

However some of those games use TOO MUCH and/or they use it in the wrong ways.

 

[dazinith]

Originally posted by Lifthz
Yes, Half-Life 2 does seem to have lack of bumpmapping compared to other games in development right now.

However some of those games use TOO MUCH and/or they use it in the wrong ways.

i just noticed that in comparison to the doom3 pics the main difference was the level of detail in the rooms and environments.. it looks like every computer terminal, floor, etc is bump-mapped in d3.. was just surprised when i saw the hl2 videos that they werent.. i could instantly tell that the environment wasnt as realistic, it only took a minute to realize why..

please dont get me wrong tho, i was just asking to find out.. i would never judge a game before its even out, nor would i judge it on graphic effects alone.. im just looking forward to d3 and hl2 so im curious to see what strong suits each will have..

 

[X-Vector]

Spiffae,

Those translations should still be available in the 3DR forum where I posted them.
Not much use digging them up though, as they're old news and I didn't finish the second one.

Gojin,

Nope, that's not it.

Lifthz,

Yup, bumpmapping is just one of the tools available to the developer; it has to be used appropriately or it will detract from the overall design rather than add to it.

I'm not a big fan of the liberal implementation of BM, it has a tendency to look 'fake' in an offensive way.
It looks OK in DooM III and Halo 2 from what I've seen, but it is horribly overdone in DX2 in places.

 

[Banana]

I think Halo has GREAT bump mapping. I play through that game periodically and i am still overly impressed by how good the bump mapping looks in that game. The thing is that not all the textures are bump mapped i dont think. A lot of them textures in certain areas are relatively flat. But it works.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by dazinith
i just noticed that in comparison to the doom3 pics the main difference was the level of detail in the rooms and environments.. it looks like every computer terminal, floor, etc is bump-mapped in d3.. was just surprised when i saw the hl2 videos that they werent.. i could instantly tell that the environment wasnt as realistic, it only took a minute to realize why..

please dont get me wrong tho, i was just asking to find out.. i would never judge a game before its even out, nor would i judge it on graphic effects alone.. im just looking forward to d3 and hl2 so im curious to see what strong suits each will have..

Yes, that I know. However Doom 3 is one of the games I was talking about that uses too much. Why? You can tell because a lot of it looks too plastic-like in its appearance.

However I will say that I think Doom 3 has better graphics than Half-Life 2 in general, however not a more realistic look...

Originally posted by Banana
I think Halo has GREAT bump mapping. I play through that game periodically and i am still overly impressed by how good the bump mapping looks in that game. The thing is that not all the textures are bump mapped i dont think. A lot of them textures in certain areas are relatively flat. But it works.

Yes. Actually. Halo is the best use of bumpmapping ever.

And Halo 2 will murder Halo 1 bumpmapping. Lol.

Again, Doom 3 is actually using a more advanced process called Normal Mapping... but Halo 2's bumpmapping rivals it (that's to tel you how good it is).

 

[greenberetta]

the first game i played that used bump-mapping was outcast back in 1999... and you could really tell the difference, it was just awesome if you compared it to other games... unfortunately the voxel engine was a bit too heavy for the computers then, but it certainly did a lot for the look of the game...