Bush Calls Human Rights Report 'Absurd'

@ No Limit

I wasn't trying to "discredit" this..just trying to point out the inconsistencies with what some people say is "evil"..and where did the black thing come from?

what is being done to these prisoners isn't good but damn whats the point of prison if its a daycare center? isn't it supposed to be harsh? you know, to maybe get people to NOT do whatever they did again?

oh well, nothing anyone says matters anyway..we are all blind and deaf in our own ways apparently..

:cheers:
 
Direwolf said:
I'm aware of all those things, and I still don't think the comparison sound. The gulag work camps were industrial-sized murder; camps where men were expressely worked to death with absolutely no other intention. And at several times during the twentieth century they housed millions of people.

No matter what happens at Gitmo, no matter if absolutely every single person there is killed in the most negligent and horrible way possible (something far beyond the truth), it would still be a flyspeck when compared to the Soviet Gulag system. And Amnesty Internation should know that. It doesn't excuse what goes on there, but its somewhat like telling everyone that your neighbor is a nazi because he bumped into a Jewish guy.
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gulag:

A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.
 
T.H.C.138 said:
@ No Limit

I wasn't trying to "discredit" this..just trying to point out the inconsistencies with what some people say is "evil"..and where did the black thing come from?

what is being done to these prisoners isn't good but damn whats the point of prison if its a daycare center? isn't it supposed to be harsh? you know, to maybe get people to NOT do whatever they did again?

oh well, nothing anyone says matters anyway..we are all blind and deaf in our own ways apparently..

:cheers:
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Of course it isn't supposed to be a day care but to get to prison you have to be charged with a crime. The people there are not charged with anything, don't know the evidance against them, can't get legal help, cant do anything. Then they are released on a regular basis after years with no charges ever brought against them.

I don't see myself as blind but if you fail to see this you might have to apply it to yourself. Again, bad terrorists that kill have nothing to do with this, this is about our conuntry breaking international law and then our leader saying its absurd not by point out what is wrong with the report but by saying those people hate our freedom. If you think this is okay I am disgusted.
 
CptStern said:
gulag:

A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.
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Stern, do you have the full gulag quote in context, I don't think I will get this from our friends on the right. I don't know if I really am blind but simply can't find it.
 
No Limit said:
Of course it isn't supposed to be a day care but to get to prison you have to be charged with a crime. .
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some prisoners are not even charged, the laws of inosent before proven guilty doesn't apply in GB
 
iyfyoufhl said:
some prisoners are not even charged, the laws of inosent before proven guilty doesn't apply in GB
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out of the 540 prisoners at gitmo, 525 of them have yet to be charged with anything
 
CptStern said:
out of the 540 prisoners at gitmo, 525 of them have yet to be charged with anything
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that right there should tell you everything about that place, but guess what, no one will stand up and question US, and if they do....We'll call them terrorists
 
CptStern said:
heheh it's from dictionary.com


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gulag
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I actually meant from the actual report. As I understand from people like O'Reilly the report compared what the US was doing to what the soviet union was doing; as Direwolf pointed out. I was not able to find this in the actual report and I have a tendency to take anything that the right wing says with a grain of salt.
 
No Limit said:
I actually meant from the actual report. As I understand from people like O'Reilly the report compared what the US was doing to what the soviet union was doing; as Direwolf pointed out. I was not able to find this in the actual report and I have a tendency to take anything that the right wing says with a grain of salt.
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oh ok, you mean the actual documents? there's tons of pages, it would take days to sift thru it all
 
CptStern said:
oh ok, you mean the actual documents? there's tons of pages, it would take days to sift thru it all
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Yeah, but these right wingers are quick to jump the gun and say that they actually compared us to the soviets so they surely must know the proper context :angel: . I was simply hoping you've seen the quote as I've been away from the media for the last few days and don't have time right now to play catch up; no one that made these claims about the report has been able to quote it. Once I find it I'll post it, but right now it seems that doesn't exist; at least not in the US part of it.
 
No Limit said:
Yeah, but these right wingers are quick to jump the gun and say that they actually compared us to the soviets so they surely must know the proper context :angel: . I was simply hoping you've seen the quote as I've been away from the media for the last few days and don't have time right now to play catch up; no one that made these claims about the report has been able to quote it. Once I find it I'll post it, but right now it seems that doesn't exist; at least not in the US part of it.
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ya I've been away as well, work has been hell and I'm doing renovations at home
 
iyfyoufhl said:
but who desides who's ways are better or worse?
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You do. You have more money and more bombs. Sound fair to me.
 
CptStern said:
ya I've been away as well, work has been hell and I'm doing renovations at home
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I searched google news as I got a second and the claim came from Irene Kahn the Amnesty International secretary-general and were not in the actual report. The way these bastards such as Rush and O'Reilly spin this is sickening. Also, as Stern pointed out; how is that label not appropriate based on what is happening?
 
Question- *Non Political* If you guys hate it so much, what are you doing to stop it?
 
Dag said:
Question- *Non Political* If you guys hate it so much, what are you doing to stop it?
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the more compelling question here is that if you're a supporter of the war, why arent you doing anthing to stop the abuse? ...I mean, after all you firmly believe that the invasion of iraq was partly on "humanitarian" grounds


what are you doing to stop it?
 
Nothing. I'm for Bush and his polocies, in case you haven't noticed. Seeing terrorists forced to get naked in Guatamala just reminded me of some frat initiations. So Cpt.Stern, instead of avoiding my question, what are you doing to stop it?
 
CptStern said:
the more compelling question here is that if you're a supporter of the war, why arent you doing anthing to stop the abuse? ...I mean, after all you firmly believe that the invasion of iraq was partly on "humanitarian" grounds


what are you doing to stop it?
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...and what are you doing to stop it? ;)

See it won't end.
 
Dag said:
Nothing. I'm for Bush and his polocies, in case you haven't noticed. Seeing terrorists forced to get naked in Guatamala just reminded me of some frat initiations. So Cpt.Stern, instead of avoiding my question, what are you doing to stop it?
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I'm against the war am I not? this is adding fuel to to my fire ...so back to you
 
Dag said:
Nothing. I'm for Bush and his polocies, in case you haven't noticed. Seeing terrorists forced to get naked in Guatamala just reminded me of some frat initiations. So Cpt.Stern, instead of avoiding my question, what are you doing to stop it?
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Haha, now when I see those pictures Stern posts I can't stop laughing. Post some more Stern :thumbs:
 
Actually, I don't really think that Amnesty International was being partisan. I do think, however, that they slipped and kicked themself in the face with this one. My only issue is with the acceptance of the "Gulag comparison," not with it being against America or any other such silliness.

And I took the quote to mean (and still do) a direct comaparison between Gitmo and the Soviet Gulags under communism. While the dictionary comparison may be much more apt (while I still doubt it, I can't say for certain), I don't think theres a snowball's chance in hell that the writers of the report intended it in that way. They knew that they were drawing a comparison to the Soviet system.
 
what are you doing about it foxtrot? or do you agree people who've been charged with no crimes should be tortured?
 
How do you know that they aren't innocent? Has it been proven? Do you personally know? And you still have yet to awnser the question, which was, "What are you doing to stop it?" Not "What are you against?" You told me you didn't like the war. I want to know what you are doing to stop the war and torture. (Or rather, frat initiation.)
 
CptStern said:
what are you doing about it foxtrot? or do you agree people who've been charged with no crimes should be tortured?
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Our court systems will work it out if there is a problem, if Mcdonalds can lose millions because some bitch spilled coffee then Akmhed stands a chance. And I am going into the military, but that is supporting my country, not Akmed.
 
Dag said:
How do you know that they aren't innocent? Has it been proven? Do you personally know? And you still have yet to awnser the question, which was, "What are you doing to stop it?" Not "What are you against?" You told me you didn't like the war. I want to know what you are doing to stop the war and torture. (Or rather, frat initiation.)
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if they were guilty dont you think they would have been charged by now? And what does it matter what I personally do to stop the abuse? 'm not american, I have no vote ... am I supposed to strap myself with dynamite and join the frey? now that I've answered that, what are you doing? you're american, you have the power of your vote ...again I say:


"the more compelling question here is that if you're a supporter of the war, why arent you doing anthing to stop the abuse? ...I mean, after all you firmly believe that the invasion of iraq was partly on "humanitarian" grounds"
 
off topic, but Cpt.Stern, i'm playing Dod right now, wanna join me?
 
Direwolf said:
Actually, I don't really think that Amnesty International was being partisan. I do think, however, that they slipped and kicked themself in the face with this one. My only issue is with the acceptance of the "Gulag comparison," not with it being against America or any other such silliness.

And I took the quote to mean (and still do) a direct comaparison between Gitmo and the Soviet Gulags under communism. While the dictionary comparison may be much more apt (while I still doubt it, I can't say for certain), I don't think theres a snowball's chance in hell that the writers of the report intended it in that way. They knew that they were drawing a comparison to the Soviet system.
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But that doesn't matter; the report never mentioned "gulag". The secretary general made that comment and nowhere did it compare Soviets to this; you might think that was their intention but I think you will agree that point is almost irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Bush treats Americans like a bunch of little kids since they will buy any bullshit that the white house tries to sell them as the original post pointed out so well. Bush didn't address any point in the entire non-partisan report (as you just said) instead he said the people making the allegations hate America and left it at that. Then the republican spin machine takes that one gulag quote that wasn't even in the report and uses it to discredit this factual information. The other day I was watching some O'Reilly and he said Amnesty internation declared war on the US and spent the entire segment on that one comment. Its sickening how anyone would defend this action by doing what Bush, O'reilly, Rush, and other republicans do.
 
Dag said:
How do you know that they aren't innocent? Has it been proven? Do you personally know? And you still have yet to awnser the question, which was, "What are you doing to stop it?"
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1. I was under the impression that one of the bedrocks of the justice system in most countries (which would usually include the US) was "innocent until proven guilty"? Or did the courts get bored with that?
Now, I can understand that one might be worried that these "terrorists" might escape if they weren't "detained" ("held prisoner illegally contrary to every human rights convention ever"), but that does not mean they can be tortured and suffer the indignities they are subjected to WITHOUT EVEN BEING FORMALLY ACCUSED OF ANYTHING.

2. I personally have done nothing whatsoever. Anythng I could do would be of no importance. Much as I'd rather NOT adopt such a horribly defeatist attitude, but, as a non-US citizen (not that it would make THAT much difference - if I was American I'd just be branded "un-American" or a witch, were I to voice disapproval for the system) the US govt. is not going to take any notice of my opinion.
When the US govt. takes no notice of what the world's foremost human rights organisation has to say, simply because it criticises them, you know you're dealing with a different kind of conceitedness.
 
one question..what would you like ME to do about any of this? should I find a "grassy knoll" and a rifle? is that your plan? seriously though...

what do you want people to do about this? go to war? I haven't heard ONE solution,just "OMG america is sooo wicked..how can they do this?"

you want a solution? nuke the bible belt and the middle east...wait **** it why stop there? cleanse the whole world,that way we won't have to argue in circles forever


el Chi thank you for saying the US Gov. instead of lumping ME in there just because of where I was born..too few people understand that my individual vote means shit in our elections..

its that asshole bush and his cronies that have made this so ****ed,not the average american..

sorry for any offense or confusion this caused
 
T.H.C.138 said:
el Chi thank you for saying the US Gov. instead of lumping ME in there just because of where I was born..too few people understand that my individual vote means shit in our elections..
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Not at all, sir. Far be it from me to accuse those who aren't deserving.
 
But that doesn't matter; the report never mentioned "gulag". The secretary general made that comment and nowhere did it compare Soviets to this; you might think that was their intention but I think you will agree that point is almost irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Bush treats Americans like a bunch of little kids since they will buy any bullshit that the white house tries to sell them as the original post pointed out so well. Bush didn't address any point in the entire non-partisan report (as you just said) instead he said the people making the allegations hate America and left it at that. Then the republican spin machine takes that one gulag quote that wasn't even in the report and uses it to discredit this factual information. The other day I was watching some O'Reilly and he said Amnesty internation declared war on the US and spent the entire segment on that one comment. Its sickening how anyone would defend this action by doing what Bush, O'reilly, Rush, and other republicans do.
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Thats politics.
As disgusting, degrading, and bluntly stupid as it all is, thats how these things work. And they have ever since the invention of radio, and to a lesser extent, print. You have to come to terms with it before you can stop being outraged and look beyond it.
 
Direwolf said:
Thats politics.
As disgusting, degrading, and bluntly stupid as it all is, thats how these things work. And they have ever since the invention of radio, and to a lesser extent, print. You have to come to terms with it before you can stop being outraged and look beyond it.
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i think, it's people's resoponsoblility to watch the politics and keep them in line, you can't just stand, watch this happen and say "that's just the way things are" we have the responsobility to make things work better, for our futur generations, after all, the Govermant is suppost to work for us, we are the boss
 
Direwolf said:
Thats politics.
As disgusting, degrading, and bluntly stupid as it all is, thats how these things work. And they have ever since the invention of radio, and to a lesser extent, print. You have to come to terms with it before you can stop being outraged and look beyond it.
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Someone lying their asses off should not be part of politics and when you see it you should speak out against it. If you don't people will buy this bullshit and an end will never come. Thanks to people not simply saying "this is how it is so move on" Fox News has lost over 50% of viewers in the last few months. Americans need to wake up, and it is the job of people that pay attention to wake them up and bring them back to reality. Otherwise people here will all think everyone in the middle east hates our freedom so we need to invade them; wouldn't want that now would we ;).
 
You misunderstand. I'm not advocating ignoring it as a problem, but rather looking past it. It's a symptom, not a cause. And thats exactly what I advocate: speaking out against such nonsense, on both sides. While I certainly don't have any love lost for Amnesty International at the moment, Bush can still shove it when it comes to his speeches labeling people.
 
Direwolf said:
You misunderstand. I'm not advocating ignoring it as a problem, but rather looking past it. It's a symptom, not a cause. And thats exactly what I advocate: speaking out against such nonsense, on both sides. While I certainly don't have any love lost for Amnesty International at the moment, Bush can still shove it when it comes to his speeches labeling people.
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ok, cool, as long as you are not a giver-upper
 
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