Bush Indicted?

[Lt. Drebin]

well as a long time reader you've probably witnessed my frustration (I cant speak for everyone else ..cuz I'm "me" not "them") at receiving stone dead silence or worse yet derision for posting clear, undeniable sources that spell out my points ..yet my opponents would rather paint me with the brush of "anti-american" than face the facts ...because were they to truely examine the facts they would draw the same conclusions I have ...when the source is the US government own declassified secret documents there can be no other interpretation

I dont care about the democrats I dont care about the republicans ..I dont play partisan politics ..I call it as I see it ... which is based on facts regardless of which political group has supported it or not ...that's what debating is all about

someone presents facts, I present mine, we debate who's facts are more compelling, we then either concede the point and move on or we arrive at a stalemate ...but that isnt the case here ...there is no conceding points no matter how compelling the argument

Cpt, I agree with you 100% and 99.99% of the time I agree with your posts. And you point out a scary fact...that 3rd party politics are being construed as personal attacks. Laying out the facts is just that....laying out the facts....form your opinions, debate and move on. Even those that have no affiliation are being shredded...and quite frankly, these are the people we need to start listening to more and more...we're either entrenched in our ideals or to the point where every disagreement is a personal attack. Everyone just needs a deep breathe and some time to reevaluate. Where is the grey area??

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Hillary will never win the democratic nomination, I'm guessing she won't even run. McCain is a good guy but he is in many ways a political coward. After all the things Bush did to him in 2000 (including questioning his service like they did to Kerry in 04) I could not stand the fact McCain just took it like a good little Republican that wont question his party's leader no matter what that leader does to him and his family.

Yet another example of how Rove is a complete scumbag. Questioning either man's service credentials is utterly dispicable. Let's be frank, that's mostly his work and anyone that follows along is just as shitty. Certain things should be completly off limits...goes to show that nothing is sacred.

 

[CptStern]

unforetunately the war has devided americans along partisan lines ...

republican = for war


everyone else


which to me is more than just disturbing it's extremely sad ..as we shouldnt be towing the political line just because it so happens to come from our party ....the funny thing is that the Neo-conservatives currently in charge dont reflect the sentiment of conservatism ..they may be republican in name but they arent republican if you get my meaning

 

[No Limit]

unforetunately the war has devided americans along partisan lines ...

republican = for war


everyone else


which to me is more than just disturbing it's extremely sad ..as we should be towing the political line just because it so happens to come from our party ....the funny thing is that the Neo-conservatives currently in charge dont reflect the sentiment of conservatism ..they may be republican in name but they arent republican if you get my meaning

Well, looks like we got in to the partisanship debate again like we always do .

You are right in the fact the war tore all of us apart. People need to remember that after 9/11 Bush had the highest approval rating of any president ever and this country was not divided, we all stood together. But lets also be frank, its mostly his fault that he decided he would not listen to anyone that disagrees with him and he is what did this. The war is mostly what caused it, almost anytime you try to debate it turns in to a Iraq war discussion. However, there are also many other issues where Bush just gives Democrats the middle finger and his supporters repeat it. Bolton is a classic example but there are many more like it. Democrats have a part in it but come on, you want them to be happy after how the Republicans spit on them?

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Well, looks like we got in to the partisanship debate again like we always do .

LOL. Sorry guys. :O

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Anyone know what's going on now??

So what's the folow up on the original story??

Any official indictments??

Or, is this just gonna flow by the wayside and nothing will happen??

 

[No Limit]

Anyone know what's going on now??

So what's the folow up on the original story??

Any official indictments??

Or, is this just gonna flow by the wayside and nothing will happen??

There have been a number of developments but nothing to get the medias attention. If the media doesn't care about it (as they have done in the past with subjects like the Downing Street Memos) Bush and Rove will get away with it. However, I respect Fitzgerald and I think he is doing a great job investigating this. I think we can at minimum expect perjury charges. If not Bush will have Fitzgerald fired like Nixon did which would probably be even better as it would expose how corrupt this administration is.

I have been trying to post updates but I honestly don't think its worth my time, Republicans will defend Rove if he eats a puppy and Democrats already know what Rove did was wrong. I'll try to keep you guys updated on the big developments but I'm not going to post anything minor.

 

[No Limit]

You know my stance on the matter. Making your words larger wont affect me.

So are you going to vote in this poll:

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88893

26 to 1 disagree with your stance if that really is your stance on the matter.

 

[seinfeldrules]

26 to 1 disagree with your stance if that really is your stance on the matter.

My stance is that Rove should only be fired if found guilty by a court. He should not be found guilty based on liberal public opinion. That is not how this country should work. Imagine if Bush fired everyone just because Dems cried loud enough.

 

[No Limit]

My stance is that Rove should only be fired if found guilty by a court. He should not be found guilty based on liberal public opinion. That is not how this country should work. Imagine if Bush fired everyone just because Dems cried loud enough.

Seriously, what the hell do you not understand about my question? Rove is not mentioned in it. Just vote and state how you voted, has nothing to do with Rove.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Rove is not mentioned in it. Just vote and state how you voted, has nothing to do with Rove.

It has everything to do with Rove and I wont walk down that road. My stance on the matter is clear.

 

[OCybrManO]

Yes, it is quite clear. According to your stance, Rove could walk up and stab someone in the face right in front of the judge and you'd be fine with it as long as he could somehow manage to avoid getting convicted... in a business where corruption is almost expected. I see. We all see. You work on the "it's only bad if you get caught" and "the end justifies the means" moral system. You were born to be a politician.


EDIT: Still, I don't know why you won't just answer the question. The question at hand is whether or not you think what he has allegedly done would be an immoral thing to do... not if he is guilty of it. If you answer "yes," and he is proven guilty... you're fine, because the courts decided he did it and they agree that it is a bad thing. If you answer "yes," and he is proven innocent... you're fine, because if he didn't do it there's no harm in you saying what he was accused of would have been wrong had it been true. Saying yes is a win/win situation. Being stubborn about it only hints that you think what he is accused of was the right thing to do.

 

[No Limit]

It has everything to do with Rove and I wont walk down that road. My stance on the matter is clear.

I'll leave it at that since now I know what your stance is, I honestly didn't think any rational person would support such a thing. OCybrManO put it well:

Rove could walk up and stab someone in the face right in front of the judge and you'd be fine with it as long as he could somehow manage to avoid getting convicted... in a business where corruption is almost expected. I see. We all see. You work on the "it's only bad if you get caught" and "the end justifies the means" moral system. You were born to be a politician.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yes, it is quite clear. According to your stance, Rove could walk up and stab someone in the face right in front of the judge and you'd be fine with it as long as he could somehow manage to avoid getting convicted... in a business where corruption is almost expected. I see. We all see. You work on the "it's only bad if you get caught" and "the end justifies the means" moral system. You were born to be a politician.

And according to your stance Rove could be completely innocent, but because YOU believe he is guilty he should be treated as such. So much for innocent before proven guilty. Again, if Rove is guilty he should be treated as such. You people lack such patience to wait until a final verdict before you make your own decisions. Disgusting.

 

[OCybrManO]

If it were an average person in a trial that I knew nothing about I would wait for evidence to be presented before I made my opinion and I would be more likely to trust the court's decision. In cases like this, the justice system is far from flawless. Powerful/rich people usually go free... even when the evidence is insurmountable. OJ Simpson's DNA was at the scene, he had blood in his car, he had a bloody glove, he had a motive, and he had the time... but I guess that's not enough to convict someone... is it? George W Bush was involved in an Enron-like scandal while he was at Harken but managed to escape with only minor questioning that quickly halted without any further investigation. It's becoming more and more clear that Karl Rove was the source and that, in context, the leak was used to discredit the opposition. Also, early on people in the administration were very quick to make claims that he was innocent, even saying they would fire anyone found to be involved... but as more evidence against him surfaced they said less and less... until they basically had a press conference where most of the questions got a reworded "no comment" for an answer. Still, you don't have to worry. I'm almost positive nothing is going to happen to him.

Still, whether or not he is guilty of the alleged actions they are at the very least, immoral... and at the most, treasonous.

 

[seinfeldrules]

If it were an average person in a trial that I knew nothing about I would wait for evidence to be presented before I made my opinion and I would be more likely to trust the court's decision. In cases like this, the justice system is far from flawless. Powerful/rich people usually go free... even when the evidence is insurmountable. OJ Simpson's DNA was at the scene, he had blood in his car, he had a bloody glove, he had a motive, and he had the time... but I guess that's not enough to convict someone... is it? George W Bush was involved in an Enron-like scandal while he was at Harken but managed to escape with only minor questioning that quickly halted without any further investigation. It's becoming more and more clear that Karl Rove was the source and that, in context, the leak was used to discredit the opposition. Also, early on people in the administration were very quick to make claims that he was innocent, even saying they would fire anyone found to be involved... but as more evidence against him surfaced they said less and less... until they basically had a press conference where most of the questions got a reworded "no comment" for an answer. Still, you don't have to worry. I'm almost positive nothing is going to happen to him.

Basically your whole post is summarized by this statement:

Because Karl Rove is rich, I believe that I make a better decision/ruling than a United States Court of Law. The Law does not apply here because of the prior statement. He is obviously guilty and should be treated as such without something people call a 'trial'.

I can only thank God that you guys werent members of the founding fathers, you would have deemed that anyone with money should be assumed guilty, then proven innocent during the trial.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

There's a lot of facts available to the public in this matter. Facts that place Rove in the middle of this......reported from both liberal and conservative press. True, nobody knows all the facts. But everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions.

Seinfeldrules, I agree that Rove should be brought to justice through the courts and his innosense (guilt) proved legally. At the same time, you must admit that the wealthy have an unfair edge in our courts. They're powerful and have numerous connections and are typically able to bend the law much more than the average person before it breaks. That is a fact.....it happens constantly. If he was brought to trial, I seriously doubt we'd see a conviction, regardless of all available evidence.

As far as Rove being fired....well....it would only be right in terms of saving face. Honestly, this administration is suffering greatly with the whole truth thing. I mean, look at all the finger pointing that has taken place after this mess erupted....children. It was Novak, wait...it was Rove...no wait...it was some other dickbag. I don't care who gets nailed for this but someone had better face the consequences of their outrageous actions. And if Rove had anything to do with this...anything...even something not punishable by law....he should be fired or resign, period. This has to do with throwing more mud on an administration that already looks like Swamp Thing. Rove is making his man look bad....end of story. I'm surprised this guy hasn't already resigned. This looks bad no matter how you slice it.

 

[No Limit]

Basically your whole post is summarized by this statement:

Because Karl Rove is rich, I believe that I make a better decision/ruling than a United States Court of Law. The Law does not apply here because of the prior statement. He is obviously guilty and should be treated as such without something people call a 'trial'.

I can only thank God that you guys werent members of the founding fathers, you would have deemed that anyone with money should be assumed guilty, then proven innocent during the trial.

The fact that you wont anwser a simple question because you think Rove did it proves you will defend him no matter what. Rove knew Plames identity was a secret, the CIA sent the administration a memo weeks before the leak. Now we know for a fact that Rove talked to at least Cooper about her identity. I am still waiting for more evidance to come out, which it will, but from the FACTS we already know 80 some percent of americans believe Rove did wrong, because he did. The problem is I can't even get you to say that knowingly leaking the identity of a undercover agent for political advanatge is a bad thing which means there is no point in dragging this discussion out any further. This is the problem with the right wing, you guys will never admit wrong as that might show weakness. Bush demonstrated this when he couldn't think of any mistakes he made, Rumsfeld demonstrated this when he couldn't admit he was wrong about pre-war troop predictions and you are demonstrating this now. What this does is it makes your ideology an ideology of lies, you might be fooling a lot of Americans now but they are starting to wake up and wake up they will. Believe it or not I started out my interest in politics listening to Rush and O'Reilly and I quickly became a right winger that would label anyone that disagreed anti-american as you guys do; but I did eventually wake up in time for the election because I chose to look at the other side. I believe the effects of 9/11 will soon wear off and more people will start to do this.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

The fact that you wont anwser a simple question because you think Rove did it proves you will defend him no matter what.

I think it's officially a lost cause, No Limit.

 

[jverne]

Damn you guys are naive!!! Nothing will happen to Bush & Co.
And what if it did???...you assholes (the rep.) will probably elect another rep. dipshit. :dozey: Stop caring that much...if you live in a hole...you'll live in a hole no matter whos elected, republican or democrat! Can't you see, that we all here can be critics, because our parents are wealthy enough to provide us with education and free speech, not because of any president or government!?! Even the ones who are older and self supported, i'm willing to bet that they come from a well off family or background!

a quote that is apropriate for this situation:

In most people, lazynes prevails over ambitiousness;
this explains why madman succeed in life.

Andre Maurois

 

[seinfeldrules]

but I did eventually wake up in time for the election because I chose to look at the other side.

Ah arrogance, the true downfall of the Democratic party.