Bush wants to end Guantanamo

[KagePrototype]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5102528.stm

US President George W Bush has said he understands European concerns over the US prison at Guantanamo Bay and he "would like it to end".

Mr Bush pledged to send detainees back to their home countries, but added that the outcome must not result in freeing "people who can do us harm".

The comments came after talks with EU leaders at a one-day summit in Vienna.

Leaders also discussed trade, global energy security, climate change, Iraq and the Iranian nuclear crisis.

 

[CptStern]

if they do close gitmo it'll be more of PR move than anything else (they almost did when a decision by the california supreme court allowed for writs of habeas corpus to be issued on behalf of dozens of gitmo prisoners) ..there's dozens of other prisons that are just as bad and as many that are far far worse (secret prisons)


closing gitmo will close the door on the abuse that's been going on since the war on terror. They should open it up to the red cross and amnesty international ..why are they barred from seeing prisoners?

 

[theotherguy]

even though its a blatant PR and election issue, the sooner guatanamo is shut down the better.

 

[CptStern]

where will the prisoners go? do you think they'll just release them? it effectively does nothing except one very important thing: remove the torture/abuse of prisoners from under the public spotlight and continue somewhere else (re: away from prying eyes)

no, the US should allow inspections by human rights/international law groups and every prisoners should have access to legal counsel and a trial date set. Closing gitmo wont give those prisoners justice

 

[theotherguy]

where will the prisoners go? do you think they'll just release them? it effectively does nothing except one very important thing: remove the torture/abuse of prisoners from under the public spotlight and continue somewhere else (re: away from prying eyes)

no, the US should allow inspections by human rights/international law groups and every prisoners should have access to legal counsel and a trial date set. Closing gitmo wont give those prisoners justice

Ideally, the prisoners should be tried justly by a jury, and if they are innocent they shoudl be allowed to go back to their home countries, and if convicted of a real crime that they actually did commit, they should be imprisoned in standard prisons around the country. If they can't be prisoned or tried legally, they should be sent back to their home countries.

 

[99.vikram]

Too little, too late Bugh :flame:

This should have been done before the scandals.

 

[CptStern]

Ideally, the prisoners should be tried justly by a jury, and if they are innocent they shoudl be allowed to go back to their home countries, and if convicted of a real crime that they actually did commit, they should be imprisoned in standard prisons around the country. If they can't be prisoned or tried legally, they should be sent back to their home countries.

I think there's been 10 people who have had trial dates set ...10 out of hundreds. They couldnt be sent to jails in the US ..that's the whole point. If they're in the US they're subject to US law, meaning no indefinate detention, meaning no torture/interrogation, meaning access to lawyers, access to human rights watch dog groups, meaning access tot he world. It's no accident the US chose non US soil to house their prisoners of war. They're effectively in limbo

 

[15357]

Federal prison, here they come.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Too little, too late Bugh :flame:

This should have been done before the scandals.

What scandals? Koran in the toilet?

 

[CptStern]

huh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/05/terror/main653890.shtml

there's tons more where that came from

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

huh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/05/terror/main653890.shtml

there's tons more where that came from

A detainee was forced to kneel so many times he was bruised, a barber gave reverse Mohawks and a female interrogator ran her fingers through a prisoner's hair and sat in his lap, the U.S. government says in the most detailed accounting of eight abuse cases at its Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects. A female interrogator wiped dye from a red magic marker on a detainee's shirt, telling him it was blood, after he allegedly spat on her. She received a verbal reprimand in early 2003.

......

I fail to see 'abuse'

 

[Ludah]

It's not so much an issue with abuse as it is the fact that anybody who went there was effectively put in legal limbo with no charges, no lawyers, no trial, and pretty much no purpose.

Anybody who was going to give up vital information would have done so by now. But even if not, that doesn't justify the reaming of due process, especially when many of the inmates are quite possibly innocent.

 

[CptStern]

A detainee was forced to kneel so many times he was bruised, a barber gave reverse Mohawks and a female interrogator ran her fingers through a prisoner's hair and sat in his lap, the U.S. government says in the most detailed accounting of eight abuse cases at its Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects. A female interrogator wiped dye from a red magic marker on a detainee's shirt, telling him it was blood, after he allegedly spat on her. She received a verbal reprimand in early 2003.

......

I fail to see 'abuse'

geneva accords specifically forbids the use of humiliation and practices that may infringe on their religious beliefs

but if you want more here's more:

Records detainee stating that "he had been beaten unconscious approximately three or four weeks ago when he was still at Camp X-ray. According to REDACTED an unknown number of guards entered his cell, unprovoked, and started spitting and cursing at him. The guards called him a "son of a bitch" and a "bastard," then told him he was crazy. REDACTED rolled onto his stomach to protect himself . . . A soldier . . . jumped on his back and started beating him in the face. REDACTED then choked him until he passed out. REDACTED stated that REDACTED was beating him because REDACTED was a Muslim and REDACTED is a Christian. REDACTED indicated there was a female guard named REDACTED who was also beating him and grabbed his head and beat it into the cell floor."

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052505/

Detainees at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were shackled to the floor in fetal positions for more than 24 hours at a time, left without food and water, and allowed to defecate on themselves, an FBI agent who said he witnessed such abuse reported in a memo to supervisors

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14936-2004Dec20.html

 

[15357]

Meh. They've done worse. (The prisoners)

 

[CptStern]

and you know this for a fact? if it were true they'd be charged by now dontcha think? but if you stubbornly believe it to be true you should list your sources please

 

[15357]

Sources..... sources.... Uh.... Bush?



I actually don't know. Therfore you win.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

US President George W Bush has said he understands European concerns over the US prison at Guantanamo Bay and he "would like it to end".

"I've had enough of your concern. Stop being concerned!"

 

[kirovman]

"I'd love to close Guantanamo, but Rummy's got a gun to my head!"

 

[theotherguy]

lol I just realized it could be taken as he wants the concerns to end

 

[K e r b e r o s]

A detainee was forced to kneel so many times he was bruised, a barber gave reverse Mohawks and a female interrogator ran her fingers through a prisoner's hair and sat in his lap, the U.S. government says in the most detailed accounting of eight abuse cases at its Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects. A female interrogator wiped dye from a red magic marker on a detainee's shirt, telling him it was blood, after he allegedly spat on her. She received a verbal reprimand in early 2003.

We get beheaded. No foul. It's all justifiable. They're mad at us.
Our planes get hijacked. Innocent people die that are not connected to the Clinton Administrations atrocities in Afghanistan. It's all justifiable. They're just really made at us.

<sigh>

and you know this for a fact? if it were true they'd be charged by now dontcha think?

The prison is a test of faith. If they admit something, to them, they've failed they're God.

 

[kirovman]

Nice lumping "them" all into one category.

But, hey, I guess "they" all lump "us" into one category so it's even? :E

 

[Ludah]

Right on, kirovman. Might as well flatten the whole region.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Excuse me? Where dideth thiseth alledgedeth lumpeth occureth?

Right on, kirovman. Might as well flatten the whole region.

"Yes, and you'll punish me through stupidity and sarcasm! That's how the intellectual does his thing!" :thumbs:

NOT

 

[CptStern]

We get beheaded. No foul. It's all justifiable. They're mad at us.
Our planes get hijacked. Innocent people die that are not connected to the Clinton Administrations atrocities in Afghanistan. It's all justifiable. They're just really made at us.

<sigh>

yes because they're all the same

The prison is a test of faith. If they admit something, to them, they've failed they're God.

so you're saying that the only way to charge them with anything is get them to confess ...wow is that how the justice system works in your neck of the woods?

 

[Ludah]

Wait a moment ... what region? What are you talking about that you thought I was talking about?

ALL OF IT. THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

so you're saying that the only way to charge them with anything is get them to confess

Oh, and what do you usually do with Prisoners of War that have possibly commited crimes against humanity?

ALL OF IT. THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

My bedroom? The gas station? The former UPN Headquarters in Dallas, Texas? You're not making any sense here.

 

[CptStern]

Oh, and what do you usually do with Prisoners of War that have possibly commited crimes against humanity?

what? that's not answering my question

 

[K e r b e r o s]

No, its answering your question with another question. I'm just being general. Treatment of POW's has always been two extremes, has it not?

How are we supposed to treat these people without going so far as to let them out of internment? They're are prisoners, and this war against Al-Qaeda has'nt ended. If we did let them leave, they'd just return to the frontlines again.

[ I did'nt want to use terrorism, Al-Qaeda just means they'res at least an end to it. ]

 

[Ludah]

The Bush administration doesn't consider them POW's.

The problem with your argument, Kerberos, is that you're assuming all the inmates at Guantanamo are linked to Al Qaeda or terrorism in general. If they were the surefire terrorists you seem to think they are, surely due process is in order? Oh wait, there's no way of telling what they are, what (if any) information is getting extracted from them, when the innocent will be released, and what general direction the whole operation is going.

I'm all for acquiring information and the internment of aggressors. But when you shirk the legal system and ethical limitations, you are setting a horrible precedent. Worse is that in such a situation, the end result is often not worth the means that went into obtaining it.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The Bush administration doesn't consider them POW's.

Thats my problem with the Bush administration. We have to be creative with these people.

If they can link a Motorola Phone's LLC Button to trigger the electronics in some other phone thats wired to two 400mm Shells buried under ground for the purpose of it being a remote detonation device, should'nt we be doing something else beside torture?

But when you shirk the legal system and ethical limitations, you are setting a horrible precedent. Worse is that in such a situation, the end result is often not worth the means that went into obtaining it.

I concede. Very good point sir.

 

[CptStern]

No, its answering your question with another question. I'm just being general.

no you're not, you're avoiding my question

Treatment of POW's has always been two extremes, has it not?

so that justifies torture?

How are we supposed to treat these people without going so far as to let them out of internment? They're are prisoners, and this war against Al-Qaeda has'nt ended. If we did let them leave, they'd just return to the frontlines again.

you could start by charging them with something, anything. You could stop torturing/abusing prisoners, you could stop the murdering of prisoners you could start by treating them as humans rather than as less than animals

 

[Ludah]

Cheers. :cheers:

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'm just going to repeat what Ludah said, because it's the truth:

It's not so much an issue with abuse as it is the fact that anybody who went there was effectively put in legal limbo with no charges, no lawyers, no trial, and pretty much no purpose.

Anybody who was going to give up vital information would have done so by now. But even if not, that doesn't justify the reaming of due process, especially when many of the inmates are quite possibly innocent.

To say otherwise is not only to say "we don't give a shit about justice, or even about human beings" but also to endorse the capture, indefinite imprisonment and possible torture of random people in the assumption that they're all mad crazy jihad singularity word bastards.

People say things like "oh, they'd do the same to us." I mean, that'd be a horrible enough thing to say even if they were all confirmed terrorists.