Buying VS Building

[TinyKilbasa]

I'm currently in the process of researching for a new machine. Its obvious that my current computer will not be able to run most of the current games/3d-apps, let alone HL2. I'm aware that buying the latest and greatest machine would also be costly, however many companies which allow financing and low monthly payments (Alienware, Dell, etc). It adds a hefty finance charge, but at least you have a monthly payment versus a lump sum, one that I cannot afford. Paying for a computer within a few years wouldn’t be too bad...

Building my own computer would be the cheapest way, but I cannot afford to pay for parts upfront. I was thinking I could make a list of parts I would need, and purchase each part throughout the year. I'd imagine prices on parts would also go down in price as the year went on. The down side to this is that when the computer is actually built, it wont be the latest and greatest.
But it will be better than what I currently have.

I've also never built one before (I see there’s a few resources here on how to build one, as well as other websites I’ve found). I know many of you have already built machines. So I have a couple questions:

1. Where’s the best place to buy parts? I’m guessing not ebay
2. Is it common for companies to replace parts if something goes wrong? (I.e. you fry a CPU, or you have a faulty HD)

I'm open to any suggestions anyone has (Other wise I wouldn’t have posted lol). Unfortunately, I will not be able to reply until tomorrow at around this time. Huzah for library!!

Thanks a lot!!!

 

[20thCenturyBoyz]

...

www.newegg.com

 

[Hazar]

Yep, newegg is the best.

btw, how much $$ do you have?

 

[Asus]

Newegg is regarded as one of the best places to buy Online and they have a place in California so it would probably the quickest shipping too.
By the way, they have free or discounted shipping on most of their items.

What computer do you have now? It might be possible to save until you get enough for the core parts (CPU, Motherboard and RAM) while using your current CD-ROM, Harddrive and possibly case and power supply.

I'm not sure what other online sites will build a custom PC for you and allow you to make monthly payments. Maybe someone else here knows of some.

I would recommend not buying from Alienware or Dell for a few reasons.
You will end up paying more with Alienware and from those who I know who have a PC from them, they say their tech support isnt' good.
If you buy from Dell you will regret it down the road as you want to upgrade or change something with your system. Everything you do has to be done through Dell.
For instance if you want to upgrade your Graphics card or Power supply you probably will run into restrictions or customers who are looking for Dell printer Ink have to order through Dell and not through a local store like Bestbuy or Compusa.

 

[blahblahblah]

Financing through a computer company is pretty stupid. Alienware's site has 22% APR financing which is ridiculously high. Some site may offer 6 months same as cash, but only take it if you can pay it off within six months - otherwise you will pay massive interest costs (even then there often big caveats that you may not be aware of). Another option is to pay with a credit card (assuming you have decent credit) but that option is still going to be approximately 15% APR. Financing a computer is not worth it. If you are not convinced, I'm sure I could whip up an amortization schedule (shows break down of principle and interest) if you really want me too. Make no mistake, if you finance your computer, you will have paid for 2 (or more) computers when it is all said and done.

The best option is to set aside some money (in a savings account) for several months. At the end of that period of time, you have enough to build your computer in cash. And you don't have to worry about having outdated components (or warranty issues).

 

[Daegon]

Personally, i've been selling pc's for a couple years now and the few times that I have sold to someone on a finance plan it has gone exceptionally well.

I usually charge around 8% apr, but it is unlikely you will be able to find a percentage that low from a retailer.

If you want to learn how to build your own pc (a worthy skill) your best bet is most probably to set up a savings account and buy your new computer after you've saved for it. The members of this forum will be exceedingly helpful (i've no doubt) with your project(s) so fear not asking.

If you're set on buying a box with a finance plan, PM me if you want to, but your best bet is building your own. Plus you'll feel great about having made a wise investment and planning and working twoard it.

 

[blackeye]

Just from what I have seen lately but newegg has been raising the prices a lot on most of their items that would interest gamers or computer enthusiests. Much higher then their MSRP. So do some searches on pricewatch (american) or pricenetwork.ca
Zipzoomfly also is decent.

 

[Asus]

Most online sites do that but there have been few products if any that are that much in demand and yet short supply. They don't have the stiff competition that your local stores have like Best Buy and Compusa.
It's just recently that the X800 and 6800 cards fit that profile. The only other PC hardware that also was like that was the A64 FX and P4 EE CPUs when they first came out.

There are a number of other good online hardware sights though, like you mentioned zipzoomfly. Also monarchcomputer.com, mwave.com, directron.com and svc.com.

 

[Gunsnroses]

Neweggs still the place to go, if not for the prices, for the free/cheap speedy shipping, and good service.

 

[johnnypoopoopant]

i suggest you save your money like me. i was planning to do the same by buying part by part, but like you said things do get cheap. so the best bet would be saving, even if its hard its well worth the wait

 

[Gunsnroses]

You've mentioned buying on credit through a company.
Thought about a credit card solely for computer?
Thats what I did, 6 months same as cash, and after that only 12%.

Not to bad, considering i'm a no credit, 19 year old college student.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Thanks for everyones input!! I decided to go ahead and build my own machine. Most of what is on the list to buy on the HL2 guide I pretty much understand, except the mother board & CPU, the most important parts of the machne of course :E .

I checked out NewEgg for prices of motherboards and realized that I don't really know what to look for. My current machine is an intel computer, so I am most likely to go towards that direction. The following is a list of specs for a motherboard (italicized), along with questions. :


AOpen "AX4SPE Max II" i865PE Chipset Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU
Socket 478: what is this? What other "Sockets" are there?


Specifications:
Supported CPU: Intel Pentium4 / P4 EE Processor (Prescott Ready)
Prescott?

Chipset: Intel 865PE+ ICH5
RAM: 4x DIMM for Dual Channel DDR400/333//266 Max 4GB
I'm guessing DDR is pretty standard now. My current system uses SDRAM. the numbers are a little confusing. are these Mhz? Why are there different numbers?

IDE: 2x UDMA 100 up to 4 Devices
Is this for the Hard Drive?

Slots: 1x AGP 8X/4X, 5x PCI
Ports: 2xPS/2,1xLPT,1xCOM,1xLAN,2xIEEE1394(Rear),8xUSB2.0(Rear 4),Audio ports
PS: Parallel Ports?
LPT: Printer Port?
IEE1394: Fire ware?

Onboard Audio: Realtek 7.1 CH CODEC
I was thinking of getting the Audigy 2 (or 3 when it comes out). Should I look for boards with out onboard sound then?

Onboard LAN: Intel GbE
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x SATA by ICH5, 4x SATA by Sil3114, RAID 0/1/0+1
Ive heard about RAID, It allows multiple hard drives to act as one, right? Sounds like something I don't need.

Onboard 1394: 2 ports by Agere Chip
What is this?

Form Factor: ATX
What is this?


Also, Ive heard the term North Bridge & BUS. What are these?
What other things should I look for in a mothber board?

Fianlly, a question with motherboard brands....Who are the better brands? who should I watch out for. I see NVIDIA makes a mother board. Would this mean an ATI card won't work on it?

Thanks for helping out a confused man :rolling: If nothing else, any links that could help me in my questions would be greatly appreciated!!

Marco.....

Polo....

 

[h4vvok]

Go to ibuypower.com as they are cheap, have decent systems, and use low cost but good parts (Soyo for AMD, but they ain't that good so be careful there)

 

[blahblahblah]

What is your price range? I would recommend AMD chips over Intel chips for numerous reasons (price and heat issues being the 2 major ones).

Here is a brief answer to your questions.

- A socket is how the CPU is inserted into the motherboard. Different CPU's require different sockets. You want to make sure your CPU uses the same socket as your motherboard.

- Prescott is the nickname of the latest Intel Pentium 4's. They are horrible. They have serious heat issues with them and have subpar performance as well. Stay away from Prescotts and anything with Celeron in its name as well.

- DDR stands for Double Data Rate Ram. I have DDR400 Ram right now, that means its physical speed is 200 MHz, but does the same amount of work if a piece of SDRAM was clocked at 400 MHz.

There are different speeds as well (DDR400, DDR333, DDR266). You want to match up with what is recommended for your processor.

There are also different names for memory as well even though they are the same exact thing.
PC 3200 = DDR 400
PC 2700 = DDR 333
PC 2100 = DDR 266
These numbers represent the amount of bandwith that the RAM can provide.

- IDE is used for all optical drives and 90% of harddrives currently available.

- PS/2 are the slots you use for your Keyboard and mouse. Don't know about LPT ports. IEEE 1394 is your firewire port.

- Onboard sound is always poor quality. Addin sound cards are recommended if you have a decent set of headphones/speakers.

- RAID is when you have 2 or more harddrives either doing redudant back-ups (in case of failures) or working together as one (though desktops will not notice a speed increase). I don't think you need to worry about the hassles of RAID.

However, SATA is another way for you to connect harddrives. It is the new standard for hard drives that will eventually (keyword: eventually) replace IDE. SATA hard drives currently have a $10 premium over identical IDE hard drives.

- ATX is the size of the motherboard. The large the size of the motherbaord, the more PCI slots you can have, and the more features the motherboard can contain. You also have to make sure you buy the right size case as well (ie an ATX motherboard will not fit inside a micro-atx case).

 

[B.Calhoun]

I just ordered some more RAM on newegg.com to have a total of 1 gig


also www.cyberpowersystem.com has good configurators

 

[johnnypoopoopant]

blahblahblah will a amd 64 3000 or 3200 work well with a ddr 400??

 

[Gunsnroses]

- Onboard sound is always poor quality. Addin sound cards are recommended if you have a decent set of headphones/speakers.

Negative, The onboard sound on my 200$ gigabyte mobo is sweet.
8 channel, and wonderfuly crisp clear.


but i spose, for 200$ it better kick some arse.

 

[Gunsnroses]

Can you throw us a price range?
along with your current computer specs, maybe we can salvage something.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Well, I'm looking at the $1500-$2000 range. Just looking for a relatively decent system that will play the games, as well to do graphic work. I mostly dealy with graphic design/web design, but occasionally work on 3d... And ofcourse games .I understand that cards built for gaming, and cards built for 3d creation are completely different (& differences in price are crazy!!)

Anywhoo My current system is as follows:

Pentium3 866mhz
2 sticks 512 megs of SDRAM (1 gig total)
ATI 9700 Pro
350 PSU
Made by Micron (currently BuyMyPC)

I can probably can keep the 3d card and the PSU, or I may as well beef it up to the XT9800 (I hear that it is compatible with some 3D apps). Thats probably about it though. I also have ok speakers... Theyre 3 years old, but theyre fine for me ...

and blahblahblah, thanks for the info, I will check out AMD....

MarcoPolo

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Oh, right I also Was wondering about the difference between northbridge & south bridge...for instance:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-153-009&DEPA=1

Under the detailed descriptions,

SiS 755 K8HT AGP/MuTIOL Bridge (North Bridge) Chipset
SiS 963L MuTIOL 1G Media I/O (South Bridge) chipset

Are there 2 different types of this MB then? or can I use it for both types?

Also, since I will be getting separate video/audio cards, should I be looking for boards without onboard audio & Video?

 

[Asus]

blahblahblah will a amd 64 3000 or 3200 work well with a ddr 400??

AMD64 CPUs work great with PC3200 (DDR400). Even in single channel mode they perform better than other CPUs.

Oh, right I also Was wondering about the difference between northbridge & south bridge...for instance:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-153-009&DEPA=1

Under the detailed descriptions,

SiS 755 K8HT AGP/MuTIOL Bridge (North Bridge) Chipset
SiS 963L MuTIOL 1G Media I/O (South Bridge) chipset

Are there 2 different types of this MB then? or can I use it for both types?

Northbridge is the main chip on the board that controls most of the devices such as Memory controller (Except AMD64's), AGP, and PCI slots. The Southbridge controls other things like USB, Firewire, and mouse/keyboard.

The performance between different Northbridge chipsets won't be that big but the stability and features are what you look at. Like I hinted at earlier, the northbridge chipset on AMD64 systems do not have a memory controller because it is actually right on the CPU so there are no bottlenecks.

Also, since I will be getting separate video/audio cards, should I be looking for boards without onboard audio & Video?

Most every board has onboard sound and just the oposite with onboard video. But you don't want to get a board that you will be paying more for a 7.1 onboard sound if there is one with basic onboard sound for less when you are getting your own card. Basicly you don't want to be paying for things you won't use.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Well, I see a motherboard that sounds relatively decent.....

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...maxprice=&mfrcode=0&DEPA=1&page=5&listStyle=2

Just out of curiosity, what is ABIT guru technology?

 

[Gunsnroses]

Well, I'd say you can salvage the 9700 just fine. I'd upgrade PSU though, to at least 400.

as for 1500-2000 Damn boy!

I spent 1150, my computer runs CS:S damn.

1150$ includes, 130$ speakers,1 200gig IDE, 2 80gig Satas for raid, 5900xt, athlon 64 3000, and a gig of ram.

You can build a phat system for 1500

 

[Asus]

Just out of curiosity, what is ABIT guru technology?

From what I remember, it has to do with the cooling over the capacitors at the top of the board. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[johnnypoopoopant]

Wow ASUS you are very helpfull....i love u

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Heres a couple cpu questions:

Im searching through CPU speeds, & notice that some cpu speeds have a plus on it. Is this for overclocking? for instance: AMD Athlon 64 3000+, with an operating frequency of 2.0 ghz, does this mean that it is normally 2.0 ghz, but you can overclock it to 3.0 ghz?

I also see something called a core....Northwood, Barton, Prestonia. Are these companies that manufacture AMD prcessors? If so, which is a good company?

 

[theGreenBunny]

Heres a couple cpu questions:

Im searching through CPU speeds, & notice that some cpu speeds have a plus on it. Is this for overclocking? for instance: AMD Athlon 64 3000+, with an operating frequency of 2.0 ghz, does this mean that it is normally 2.0 ghz, but you can overclock it to 3.0 ghz?

I also see something called a core....Northwood, Barton, Prestonia. Are these companies that manufacture AMD prcessors? If so, which is a good company?

The Athlon cpus are rated for their performance by AMD. The number with the + is the cpu's performance rating. In theory a 3000+ AMD cpu is as fast as a 3ghz intel cpu, even though it's clocked at only +- 2 ghz.

Northwood or Barton etc is the name of the cpu core. They represent different 'design series'. For example, an Athlon XP2800+ can be either a Thoroughbred core or a Barton core. In this case the Barton core is a newer 'model'. It doesn't have anything to do with companies. Maybe I haven't worded it exactly right, but that's the basic idea

 

[AmishSlayer]

Since this is sorta on topic....what's the advantage of AMD64's over AMD XP's ?

I'm just curious...planning to build a new comp next summer and just checking things out now because my cousin wants to get one from ibuypower.

 

[bosox188]

Well, I'm looking at the $1500-$2000 range. Just looking for a relatively decent system that will play the games, as well to do graphic work. I mostly dealy with graphic design/web design, but occasionally work on 3d... And ofcourse games .I understand that cards built for gaming, and cards built for 3d creation are completely different (& differences in price are crazy!!)

Anywhoo My current system is as follows:

Pentium3 866mhz
2 sticks 512 megs of SDRAM (1 gig total)
ATI 9700 Pro
350 PSU
Made by Micron (currently BuyMyPC)

I can probably can keep the 3d card and the PSU, or I may as well beef it up to the XT9800 (I hear that it is compatible with some 3D apps). Thats probably about it though. I also have ok speakers... Theyre 3 years old, but theyre fine for me ...

and blahblahblah, thanks for the info, I will check out AMD....

MarcoPolo

That's a nice budget, and for now if you want you can definitely keep the 9700 pro. You should get a nice psu, here's an awesome one I love it:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=17-153-007&DEPA=0

 

[TinyKilbasa]

The Athlon cpus are rated for their performance by AMD. The number with the + is the cpu's performance rating. In theory a 3000+ AMD cpu is as fast as a 3ghz intel cpu, even though it's clocked at only +- 2 ghz.

Northwood or Barton etc is the name of the cpu core. They represent different 'design series'. For example, an Athlon XP2800+ can be either a Thoroughbred core or a Barton core. In this case the Barton core is a newer 'model'. It doesn't have anything to do with companies. Maybe I haven't worded it exactly right, but that's the basic idea

Well Theres seeems to be a whole list of different "design schemes". What should I look for?

 

[Asus]

Since this is sorta on topic....what's the advantage of AMD64's over AMD XP's ?

I'm just curious...planning to build a new comp next summer and just checking things out now because my cousin wants to get one from ibuypower.

There are many advantages.
-Athlon 64's can do 3 more OPS (Operations/sec) than the Athlon XP (12 vs 9)
-Athlon 64's have the memory controller right on the CPU so:
a)Very quick response since it is onboard and not on the northbridge through the FSB.
b)Runs at the speed of the CPU which means the faster the CPU the faster it runs and even lower latency.
c)Have no bottleneck. The link between Northbridge (rest of the system) and CPU is free of the heavy memory traffic.
-Athlon 64's have SSE2
-Athlon 64's have Cool&Quiet (Reduces the power and heat when idle)
-Athlon 64's run much cooler when idle or during load, even with the stock heatsink.
-Performance. Any Athlon 64 will beat any Athlon XP in everything, especially Games and media applications. For example, The Athlon 64 2800+ will beat the Athlon XP 3200+.
-The Athlon 64 2800+, 3000+ and 3200+ are at a very good price.

Well Theres seeems to be a whole list of different "design schemes". What should I look for?

The only Core you need to know the difference between is Prescott and Northwood (Intel's). Otherwise they are basicly the same on similar CPUs but the cache size may be different.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

Prescott and Northwood is both Intel, or just Northwood and Prescott is AMD?

never mind, theyre both Intel....I see now...so Cache isn that important then?

 

[Asus]

Prescott and Northwood is both Intel, or just Northwood and Prescott is AMD?

Both are Intel. Northwood is the better of the two at the same clock speed. Northwood has 512KB L2 cache while Prescott ships with 1MB L2 cache. The reason there is a bigger difference here is because Prescott will perform worse, so they added the extra L2 cache to cover that up. It does for the most part but it still lags behind Northwood at times plus it has heat/power issues.

All of the Athlon 64 cores are the same with no change except additional L2 cache for slightly higher performing models.

 

[blahblahblah]

so Cache isn that important then?

It depends on the processor and chip architecture. You can compare very few things about an Intel Processor with an AMD processor.

As a general rule of thumb, AMD processor don't benefit from Cache increases as much as Intel processors do.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

It depends on the processor and chip architecture. You can compare very few things about an Intel Processor with an AMD processor.

As a general rule of thumb, AMD processor don't benefit from Cache increases as much as Intel processors do.

wow..i didn't know that.. well i guess ya learn something new each time eh
Asus, is it still better to get the 1MB cache with an AMD processor if available? or would it really be a waste of cash since u wouldn't really notice any difference?

edit: 3000th post and a pretty good thread to post in as well :cheers:

 

[Asus]

The reason AMD CPUs don't benefit as much is because they can get information from the system and memory much quicker (more efficent) and they don't need a larger place to store info for the time being.

It generally would not be better to get an AMD CPU with more L2 Cache if they have the same model because the one with lower cache will have a higher clock speed, which is more important for most applications. The difference between say an A64 3000+ (512Kb L2 cache) running at 2.0GHz and an A64 3200+ (1MB L2 cache) running at 2GHz isn't that much of a difference either, depending on the application.

They recently replaced the 3200+ and 3400+ with models with less L2 cache but a higher clock speed because they had good yeilds and it costs them less. Cache costs the manufacture a lot to add to a CPU.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

OK, another question about memory:

Whats the difference between Registered & unbuffered?

 

[blahblahblah]

OK, another question about memory:

Whats the difference between Registered & unbuffered?

Memory Crash Course!

(This is the rough basics with memory. If you understand this stuff, you pretty much understand memory. However, reality is a bit different/complicated than what these tech notes suggest so don't be afraid to ask for advice or questions after you read this.)

DDR Basics
Memory Glossary
CAS Latency
Registered and Unbuffered Memory
ECC Memory

That should cover most of the common questions people have with RAM.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

thanks for that explanation Asus
so i guess when it comes to AMD processors.. cache size shouldn't even be taken into consideration as long as it has 512K.

for Intel tho.. its a different story huh?